The four horsemen of Revelations

[AdB]

Are the events connected to the first 4 horsemen of Revelations the same events as mentioned in Matt 24:1-8, Mark 13:1-8 and Luke 21:5-11?

 

[keras]

Are the events connected to the first 4 horsemen of Revelations the same events as mentioned in Matt 24:1-8, Mark 13:1-8 and Luke 21:5-11?

No.
The Four Horsemen of Revelation 6:1-8 were released at the Ascension of Jesus, in the first Century.
Proved by the Fifth Seal, which shows all the Christian martyrs, starting with Stephen.

The next Prophesied event we can expect is the Sixth Seal world changer.

 

[AdB]

No.
The Four Horsemen of Revelation 6:1-8 were released at the Ascension of Jesus, in the first Century.
Proved by the Fifth Seal, which shows all the Christian martyrs, starting with Stephen.

The next Prophesied event we can expect is the Sixth Seal world changer.

Why would the fifth seal "prove" this? Why would that mark the martyrship of Stephen specifically? Doesn't it seem the fifth seal actually marks the time right before the completion of the martyrship because they were told "to rest a little while longer"?

Even if the fifth seal would be at the time of Stephen, how does that distort the parallel between the horsemen and the texts in the gospels?

 

[Semper-Fi]

Are the events connected to the first 4 horsemen of Revelations the same events as mentioned in Matt 24:1-8, Mark 13:1-8 and Luke 21:5-11?

yes

 

[Douggg]

Are the events connected to the first 4 horsemen of Revelations the same events as mentioned in Matt 24:1-8, Mark 13:1-8 and Luke 21:5-11?

No. The four horsemen are end times, beginning with the rider on the white horse being the Antichrist, given a crown as the perceived King of Israel messiah.

 

[keras]

Why would the fifth seal "prove" this? Why would that mark the martyrship of Stephen specifically? Doesn't it seem the fifth seal actually marks the time right before the completion of the martyrship because they were told "to rest a little while longer"?

Even if the fifth seal would be at the time of Stephen, how does that distort the parallel between the horsemen and the texts in the gospels?

The Seals were opened in the sequence given in Rev 6.
A good Biblical reason is needed to believe otherwise.

Stephen was the first Christian martyr. His soul was placed under the Altar in heaven, followed by the millions killed for their faith since then and still happening today.
A 'little while' to God is a long time for us.

That depends. Are these the same horses?

Yes, the 'horsemen in Zechariah 1:8-11 and Zechariah 6:1-8, are the same as Revelation 6:1-8
Proved by how the world has experienced terrible wars, shocking famines and ghastly plagues. If they had been any worse, mankind could hardly have survived.

It is sheer nonsense to think those disasters are yet to happen. But they will and have gotten worse over the last 100 years or so; just as Jesus Prophesied how they would - like labor pains do.

 

[RandyPNW]

Some people think the 4 horsemen align with the "birth pains" of the Olivet Discourse because they use similar language. But obviously, one represents the preliminary signs of the fall of the Jewish temple, whereas the 4 horsemen represent things that happen *after* the fall of the Jewish temple. So they cannot be the same. Are they similar? Sure!

So I see them being similar for a reason. The birth pains of the coming Roman desolation of Jerusalem was a warning to believers, who saw the signs of war, rumors of war, and the approach of Roman armies. In the same way, those who see the coming judgment of Christ at his 2nd Coming are able to see the birth pains of the present age, which is the peace that God takes away from those who try to build satanic kingdoms. They try to build towers of Babel, and God sends conquerors against them.

The signs of failure of this present age and their worldly pagan kingdoms are all around us. Just watch modern democracies fail as they turn back to paganism. Just like at how atheistic systems like Communism are faring? They have a relatively short life. God sends his "horsemen" against them, to take away their peace and to destroy their political systems. And they are cursed with poor production, famine, and various pestilences and natural disasters.

And their attack on the Church is indication of how God views these systems, as they do harm to His People. It is a clear indication that for them the sky is about to fall.

 

[AdB]

No. The four horsemen are end times, beginning with the rider on the white horse being the Antichrist, given a crown as the perceived King of Israel messiah.

But on one hand, why wouldn’t the Olivet Discourse also be about the same events, and on the other hand, why would such generic events such as war, famine, disease, persecution and other hardships be mentioned so specifically for the time from when the antichrist is revealed?

 

[AdB]

That depends. Are these the same horses?

Zechariah 6:1-8 And I turned, and lifted my eyes; and looked I beheld, and behold, four chariots going forth from out of [the] midst of two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.[2] With the first chariot reddish horses; and with the second chariot black horses;[3] and with the third chaariot horses white; and with the fourth chariot horses spotted and dapple-grey.[4] And I answered and said to the angel, the one speaking with me, What are these, O lord?[5] And answered the angel, the one speaking with me answered. And he said, These are the four winds of the heaven, and they go forth to stand beside the Lord of all the earth,[6] with which were the black horses--they went forth upon [the] land of [the] north; and the white--they went forth after them; and the spotted--they went forth upon [the] land of [the] south.[7] And the dapple-gray--they went forth, and they looked to travel about the earth. And he said, Go and travel about the earth. And they traveled about the earth.[8] And he yelled out and spoke to me, saying, Behold, the ones going forth upon [the] land of [the] north caused rest for my rage in [the] land of [the] north.ABP

Good point you bring these up and yes, the resemblance is striking. In Ezekiel these horses are indicated to be “spirits of heaven” which are “patrolling the earth”.

Only the order in which they are named / appear is different (in Rev White-Red-Black-Pale and in Ezek Red-Black-White-Pale) Also Ezek gives specific directions in which the ride, except for the red horse… Also the one to the North is getting specific mention.

It’s not really clear to me though how to align these with the horsemen of Revelations…

 

[AdB]

The Seals were opened in the sequence given in Rev 6.
A good Biblical reason is needed to believe otherwise.

Stephen was the first Christian martyr. His soul was placed under the Altar in heaven, followed by the millions killed for their faith since then and still happening today.

A 'little while' to God is a long time for us.

So what is the logic to squeeze the first 4 seals into the short time between the ascension and Stephens martyrdom? As you stated that they were initiated then:

The Four Horsemen of Revelation 6:1-8 were released at the Ascension of Jesus, in the first Century.

Also it’s a bit strange to somehow “start” the “Saints under the Altar” with Stephen with already so many saints already killed…

Indeed time is a relative concept regarding to how God sees it and how we see it, but in this context God is comforting His saints, would He mislead them in this?

Yes, the 'horsemen in Zechariah 1:8-11 and Zechariah 6:1-8, are the same as Revelation 6:1-8

Proved by how the world has experienced terrible wars, shocking famines and ghastly plagues. If they had been any worse, mankind could hardly have survived.

It is sheer nonsense to think those disasters are yet to happen. But they will and have gotten worse over the last 100 years or so; just as Jesus Prophesied how they would - like labor pains do.

Yes, they have happened throughout human history, so it must be indicating something ABOUT these things, like HOW they happen. Here indeed the “labor pains” as Jesus mentioned in the parallel texts in the Gospels may be the key word?

 

[AdB]

Some people think the 4 horsemen align with the "birth pains" of the Olivet Discourse because they use similar language. But obviously, one represents the preliminary signs of the fall of the Jewish temple, whereas the 4 horsemen represent things that happen *after* the fall of the Jewish temple. So they cannot be the same. Are they similar? Sure!

So I see them being similar for a reason. The birth pains of the coming Roman desolation of Jerusalem was a warning to believers, who saw the signs of war, rumors of war, and the approach of Roman armies. In the same way, those who see the coming judgment of Christ at his 2nd Coming are able to see the birth pains of the present age, which is the peace that God takes away from those who try to build satanic kingdoms. They try to build towers of Babel, and God sends conquerors against them.

The signs of failure of this present age and their worldly pagan kingdoms are all around us. Just watch modern democracies fail as they turn back to paganism. Just like at how atheistic systems like Communism are faring? They have a relatively short life. God sends his "horsemen" against them, to take away their peace and to destroy their political systems. And they are cursed with poor production, famine, and various pestilences and natural disasters.

And their attack on the Church is indication of how God views these systems, as they do harm to His People. It is a clear indication that for them the sky is about to fall.

It could also be that both the Olivet Discourse and the horsemen of Revelations are descriptions of the actual events BOTH prior to the destruction of Jerusalem (Revelation is generally believed to have been written before Jerusalem’s destruction) but also for future events as you describe. Some of the events described in the Olivet Discourse are difficult to match in a reasonable manner to the actual 70AD events, so they may be figurative for the 70AD events while they will be more actual events in a future time.

 

[AdB]

Opened in sequence doesn't mean crowed together and back to back.
The 6th seal is the wrath... with a whole lot of real estate in between.

I don't see how people think Luke's accounts and/or Paul have anything to do with The Revelation.

Luke was a fellow-traveler with Paul to the gentiles. And all of Asia had already turned from Paul in 2 Timothy 1:15.

Which means THE churches of Asia were not ABOUT the gospel to the gentiles, anymore, at all.

The Galatians had already been trying to turn away from Paul to another gospel.

And the Son sure wasn't preaching Himself crucified in Matthew 4:23. He was preparing them for the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, and Himself as the King.

Would He promote Himself as King and proclaim His death at the same time? If His Disciples could hardly bear it... how much less could the sick and the poor?

Sorry, but I really don't get what you are trying to say...

 

[AdB]

yes

What are your arguments for this as opposed to people who say these events are not the same?

 

[Douggg]

But on one hand, why wouldn’t the Olivet Discourse also be about the same events, and on the other hand, why would such generic events such as war, famine, disease, persecution and other hardships be mentioned so specifically for the time from when the antichrist is revealed?

The olivet discourse (And luke 21 parallel) verses
proceed in the text from the near term (70 ad era), to the long term (the past 2000 years), to the end times.

Below I have a table of where the verses fall.

 

[AdB]

The olivet discourse (And luke 21 parallel) verses
proceed in the text from the near term (70 ad era), to the long term (the past 2000 years), to the end times.

Below I have a table of where the verses fall.


View attachment 321291

Nice table, but what are the arguments that you place these verses in these specific times?

 

[RandyPNW]

It could also be that both the Olivet Discourse and the horsemen of Revelations are descriptions of the actual events BOTH prior to the destruction of Jerusalem (Revelation is generally believed to have been written before Jerusalem’s destruction) but also for future events as you describe. Some of the events described in the Olivet Discourse are difficult to match in a reasonable manner to the actual 70AD events, so they may be figurative for the 70AD events while they will be more actual events in a future time.

Actually, most scholarship that I have heard from tend to believe the Revelation was written after 70 AD. Preterists obviously believe it had to be before 70 AD. I just don't know, but tend to throw in my lot with the "after 70 AD crowd." I have some Preterist-like beliefs regarding the Olivet Discourse, but I'm not a Preterist. I just believe that most of the Olivet Discourse was about the fall of the temple in 70 AD, and about the warning signs preliminary to that event.

But the fall of the temple was, for Jesus, the beginning of a "great tribulation" for the Jewish People. This is made most clear in Luke 21. After their fall to the Romans they would be sent into exile, and suffer nearly unending tragedy until before they go extinct they are brought back again, to fulfil God's promises to Abraham.

 

[grafted branch]

Are the events connected to the first 4 horsemen of Revelations the same events as mentioned in Matt 24:1-8, Mark 13:1-8 and Luke 21:5-11?

No, because the third seal or black horse doesn’t represent famine.

Here is some information on the nutritional value of wheat, barley, olive oil, and grape juice or wine (if grape juice is made into an alcoholic beverage the sugar is what is converted into alcohol). Serving size is 100 grams; all measurements are in grams except calories. Different web sites have slightly different values but they are all very close.

Nutritional value of wheat

Calories 340
Fat 2.5
Protein 13.2
Carbohydrate 72
Sugar .4​

Nutritional value of barley

Calories 354
Fat 2.3
Protein 12.48
Carbohydrate 73.4
Sugar .82​

Nutritional value of olive oil

Calories 881.5
Fat 103.7
Protein 0
Carbohydrate 0
Sugar 0​

Nutritional value of grape juice

Calories 60
Fat .13
Protein .37
Carbohydrate 14.77
Sugar 14.2​

Amount of nutrients needed per day for the average active adult male, amounts are less for women and children

Calories 2700 (easily obtained from olive oil)
Fat 88 (easily obtained from olive oil)
Protein 63 (would require 4.7 gallons or 17.8 liters of grape juice)
Carbohydrate 410 (would require less than 1 gallon or 3.79 liters of grape juice)
Sugar 37.5 (easily obtained from grape juice)​

I Googled “which is more nutritious wheat or barley” and looked at foodstruct.com. This site had a very good break down of wheat vs barely. Based on 300 grams of product, vitamins and minerals are scored on how much the food fulfils a person’s daily need.

In vitamins Barley=27 Wheat=25.
In minerals Barley=52 Wheat=67.
In protein Barley=75% Wheat=82%.
In carbohydrates Barley=73% Wheat=71%.
In fat Barley=11% Wheat=11%.​

According to many commentaries a measure of barley or wheat is about 1 quart or 907.2 grams (1 ounce = 28.35 grams). To be conservative let’s just call it 900 grams. If 1 measure is enough to feed 1 person for 1 day, then 900 grams of barley or wheat would give a little over the amount of calories needed, also an excess amount of minerals, protein, and carbohydrates, but not enough vitamins, fat, or sugar.

My first observation is that barley and wheat are so close to being equal nutritionally that if there was a famine and a person could purchase 3 times as much barley as they could wheat, most everyone would be purchasing barley. I am not sure why some commentaries state that barley is so much less nutritious than wheat, it’s just not true.

Second, all of the 5 basic nutritional needs can be easily obtained from grape juice and olive oil with the exception of protein (it would be physically impossible for most people to drink 4.7 gallons or 17.8 liters of grape juice or wine per day due to the rate at which the kidneys can process).

If, as many commentaries suggest, a penny was a day’s wages for a laborer then a laborer could purchase 2700 grams of barley per day. That’s enough protein for 5.35 days if barley was the only source of protein. If a person would drink 1 gallon of grape juice per day, they would get about 13 grams of protein. That leaves 50 grams of protein a day needed from barley; which comes out to 400 grams of barley per day. That means that a day’s wages could buy enough barley to supply 6.75 days’ worth of protein. If instead of grape juice it was alcoholic wine, a person could let the alcohol along with some of the water evaporate away so they wouldn’t become alcoholics or have to consume as much sugar or liquid. If the grape juice or wine was reduced due to evaporation it’s easy to come up with 1 days’ work supplying the 3 measures of barley needed per person for 1 week.

If a laborer had a family of 5 people, including himself, and he was the only provider then he would perhaps have to work 4 days (women and children require less food) just for the barley to feed his family. This wouldn’t include the cost of the oil and wine. If he worked 6 days a week then they would probably be just barely getting enough food, depending on the cost of oil and wine. If however the wife or children were able to glean fields, make bread to sell, or some other economic activity (Aquila and Priscilla were both tent makers Acts 18:2-3 and Lydia was a seller of purple Acts 16:14) then they could very well be able to survive in the first century. From ancientcoinsforeducation.org it’s estimated that about 50% of income was spent on food in ancient Rome, the time when Revelation was written.

 

[AdB]

Actually, most scholarship that I have heard from tend to believe the Revelation was written after 70 AD. Preterists obviously believe it had to be before 70 AD. I just don't know, but tend to throw in my lot with the "after 70 AD crowd." I have some Preterist-like beliefs regarding the Olivet Discourse, but I'm not a Preterist. I just believe that most of the Olivet Discourse was about the fall of the temple in 70 AD, and about the warning signs preliminary to that event.

But the fall of the temple was, for Jesus, the beginning of a "great tribulation" for the Jewish People. This is made most clear in Luke 21. After their fall to the Romans they would be sent into exile, and suffer nearly unending tragedy until before they go extinct they are brought back again, to fulfil God's promises to Abraham.

Still both the Olivet Discourse and the horsemen could be serving a double fulfilment? Both regarding the 70AD events aswell as future (or current) events?

 

[AdB]

No, because the third seal or black horse doesn’t represent famine.

Here is some information on the nutritional value of wheat, barley, olive oil, and grape juice or wine (if grape juice is made into an alcoholic beverage the sugar is what is converted into alcohol). Serving size is 100 grams; all measurements are in grams except calories. Different web sites have slightly different values but they are all very close.

Nutritional value of wheat

Calories 340
Fat 2.5
Protein 13.2
Carbohydrate 72
Sugar .4​

Nutritional value of barley

Calories 354
Fat 2.3
Protein 12.48
Carbohydrate 73.4
Sugar .82​

Nutritional value of olive oil

Calories 881.5
Fat 103.7
Protein 0
Carbohydrate 0
Sugar 0​

Nutritional value of grape juice

Calories 60
Fat .13
Protein .37
Carbohydrate 14.77
Sugar 14.2​

Amount of nutrients needed per day for the average active adult male, amounts are less for women and children

Calories 2700 (easily obtained from olive oil)
Fat 88 (easily obtained from olive oil)
Protein 63 (would require 4.7 gallons or 17.8 liters of grape juice)
Carbohydrate 410 (would require less than 1 gallon or 3.79 liters of grape juice)
Sugar 37.5 (easily obtained from grape juice)​

I Googled “which is more nutritious wheat or barley” and looked at foodstruct.com. This site had a very good break down of wheat vs barely. Based on 300 grams of product, vitamins and minerals are scored on how much the food fulfils a person’s daily need.

In vitamins Barley=27 Wheat=25.
In minerals Barley=52 Wheat=67.
In protein Barley=75% Wheat=82%.
In carbohydrates Barley=73% Wheat=71%.
In fat Barley=11% Wheat=11%.​

According to many commentaries a measure of barley or wheat is about 1 quart or 907.2 grams (1 ounce = 28.35 grams). To be conservative let’s just call it 900 grams. If 1 measure is enough to feed 1 person for 1 day, then 900 grams of barley or wheat would give a little over the amount of calories needed, also an excess amount of minerals, protein, and carbohydrates, but not enough vitamins, fat, or sugar.

My first observation is that barley and wheat are so close to being equal nutritionally that if there was a famine and a person could purchase 3 times as much barley as they could wheat, most everyone would be purchasing barley. I am not sure why some commentaries state that barley is so much less nutritious than wheat, it’s just not true.

Second, all of the 5 basic nutritional needs can be easily obtained from grape juice and olive oil with the exception of protein (it would be physically impossible for most people to drink 4.7 gallons or 17.8 liters of grape juice or wine per day due to the rate at which the kidneys can process).

If, as many commentaries suggest, a penny was a day’s wages for a laborer then a laborer could purchase 2700 grams of barley per day. That’s enough protein for 5.35 days if barley was the only source of protein. If a person would drink 1 gallon of grape juice per day, they would get about 13 grams of protein. That leaves 50 grams of protein a day needed from barley; which comes out to 400 grams of barley per day. That means that a day’s wages could buy enough barley to supply 6.75 days’ worth of protein. If instead of grape juice it was alcoholic wine, a person could let the alcohol along with some of the water evaporate away so they wouldn’t become alcoholics or have to consume as much sugar or liquid. If the grape juice or wine was reduced due to evaporation it’s easy to come up with 1 days’ work supplying the 3 measures of barley needed per person for 1 week.

If a laborer had a family of 5 people, including himself, and he was the only provider then he would perhaps have to work 4 days (women and children require less food) just for the barley to feed his family. This wouldn’t include the cost of the oil and wine. If he worked 6 days a week then they would probably be just barely getting enough food, depending on the cost of oil and wine. If however the wife or children were able to glean fields, make bread to sell, or some other economic activity (Aquila and Priscilla were both tent makers Acts 18:2-3 and Lydia was a seller of purple Acts 16:14) then they could very well be able to survive in the first century. From ancientcoinsforeducation.org it’s estimated that about 50% of income was spent on food in ancient Rome, the time when Revelation was written.

Then what does the 3rd seal represent?

 

[Douggg]

Nice table, but what are the arguments that you place these verses in these specific times?

The end times, for example, in Matthew 24, being in verse 15 when the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place. A time of the end event according to Daniel 12:11-12.

Before then, the gospel of the kingdom will be preached into all nations in verse 14, a long term action.

And before then, from 4-13 we haven the disciples' era, which they are told, he who endures to the end (of their era implied) the same shall be saved in verse 13, noting verse 9.