The Four Aspects of Salvation.

[JLB777]

There is no scripture saying "choose to believe". People read it into scripture.

• whoever believes in Him should not perish

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Whoever, means anyone who believes.

Not a isolated select group of people.

The choice we all must make is whether to believe or not.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

• He who believes in the Son has eternal life;

This does not say, he who is predestined to be saved, has eternal life.

• but he who does not obey the Son will not see life,

Obeying is a choice.

Believing is a choice.


God does not force us to believe.

God does not force us to obey.


IT’S A CHOICE.



JLB

 

[Dave L]

• whoever believes in Him should not perish

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Whoever, means anyone who believes.

Not a isolated select group of people.

The choice we all must make is whether to believe or not.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

• He who believes in the Son has eternal life;

This does not say, he who is predestined to be saved, has eternal life.

• but he who does not obey the Son will not see life,

Obeying is a choice.

Believing is a choice.


God does not force us to believe.

God does not force us to obey.


IT’S A CHOICE.



JLB

Choice = salvation by works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn’t say there was only one sin that leads to eternal death.

Every sin leads to eternal death, that is not forgiven.


There is only one sin, that we are not to pray about, because God will not forgive it, that leads to eternal death; Blasphemy of the Spirit.


JLB

Well, again a faithful believer cannot pray for another believer if they know that believer later on rejects Jesus (i.e. They know that they committed apostasy). A faithful believer cannot also pray for anyone who worships the beast, either. These are also unforgivable sins that are unlike other grievous sins (like hate, theft, lust, etc.) that can be forgiven by confessing them. So the "sin unto death" would have to also include these other unforgivable sins, too.

Furthermore, where in the context does John talk about the "blasphemy of the Spirit" or other unforgivable sins elsewhere? He doesn't. So I believe it would be out of context to his epistle. Granted, I am not ruling out the possibility by some slim chance that this is what he may be referring to, but it seems unlikely. In James we see a brother who committed sin, and they are sick. So they are praying so that this person may have life and be forgiven of their sins (James 5:14-16). No doubt that they are seeking forgiveness and they were not prodigal by being backslidden into sin.

In addition, why are the brethren praying for this believer in 1 John 5?

The focus appears to be a lot on the "sin not unto death" and then John switches back to the point about the believer's faithfulness and how the whole world lies in wickedness.

16 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."
(1 John 5:16-19).​

The only place we see where a believer can fall into sin, and can be forgiven is in 1 John 1:9 cf. 1 John 2:1. This is the "sin not unto death" because they are confessing their sins with the intention of overcoming them (1 John 1:7) (1 John 2:3). But we can agree to disagree, brother.

 

[JLB777]

Choice = salvation by works.

Believe = Choice

Obey = Choice



God does not force anyone to believe.


Otherwise all would be saved.

 

[JLB777]

Well, again a faithful believer cannot pray for another believer if they know that believer later on rejects Jesus (i.e. They know that they committed apostasy). A faithful believer cannot also pray for anyone who worships the beast, either. These are also unforgivable sins that are unlike other grievous sins (like hate, theft, lust, etc.) that can be forgiven.

Furthermore, where in the context does John talk about the "blasphemy of the Spirit" elsewhere? He doesn't. So I believe it would be out of context to his epistle. Scripture interprets Scripture, my friend.

Scripture does interpret scripture.


Where in the context does John talk about the mark of the beast?


Of course apostasy, departing from Christ, and taking the mark of the beast, whereby they worship and serve the antichrist is apostasy.



JLB

 

[Dave L]

Believe = Choice

Obey = Choice



God does not force anyone to believe.


Otherwise all would be saved.

God never offers the gospel to any. He announces it. It is never a matter of choice. If you believe = you are born again and he saved you. If you must choose to believe, it is because you don't believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Believe = Choice

Obey = Choice



God does not force anyone to believe.


Otherwise all would be saved.

I agree, brother.

Free Will Choice in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Scripture does interpret scripture.


Where in the context does John talk about the mark of the beast?


Of course apostasy, departing from Christ, and taking the mark of the beast, whereby they worship and serve the antichrist is apostasy.



JLB

My point is that John is not referring to unforgivable sins with his reference to the "sin unto death." The focus appears to be heavily on the "sin not unto death." If a believer does not confess of their sins to Jesus, they abide in spiritual death until they confess and forsake such sins. This appears to be thrust of his epistle at the starting gate, and then holy living vs. unholy living is the focus of his argument in the rest of his epistle.

Granted, I am not ruling out the possibility by some slim chance that the "sin unto death" are unforgivable sins, but it seems unlikely (by the context). Also, in James we see a brother who committed sin, and they are sick. So they are praying so that this person may have life and be forgiven of their sins (James 5:14-16). No doubt that they are seeking forgiveness and they were not prodigal by being backslidden into sin.

In addition, why are the brethren praying for this believer in 1 John 5?

The focus appears to be a lot on the "sin not unto death" and then John switches back to the point about the believer's faithfulness and how the whole world lies in wickedness.

16 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."
(1 John 5:16-19).​

The only place we see where a believer can fall into sin, and can be forgiven is in 1 John 1:9 cf. 1 John 2:1. This is the "sin not unto death" because they are confessing their sins with the intention of overcoming them (1 John 1:7) (1 John 2:3). But we can agree to disagree, brother.

 

[Dave L]

I agree, brother.

Free Will Choice in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

You assume the law saved people. It couldn't. And the gospel is not law. So free will turns it into law and a false gospel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You assume the law saved people. It couldn't. And the gospel is not law. So free will turns it into law and a false gospel.

I believe that in order for a person to defend a truth in God's Word, they need to explain the verses in the English if they are even remotely correct (Note: Please feel free to do so any time).

I also believe that if one just throws down the original languages card (that says something different than the English), this to me looks like attempt to re-write Scripture so as to fit a belief we prefer to see (rather than just reading and believing God's Word plainly in what it says). So if you want to prove to me that your belief is correct, then explain these verses in the English. If not, then there is no real basis to have a discussion at all, my friend. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (i.e. the Bible).

 

[Dave L]

I believe that in order for a person to defend a truth in God's Word, they need to explain the verses in the English if they are even remotely correct (Note: Please feel free to do so any time).

I also believe that if one just throws down the original languages card (that says something different than the English), this to me looks like attempt to re-write Scripture so as to fit a belief we prefer to see (rather than just reading and believing God's Word plainly in what it says). So if you want to prove to me that your belief is correct, then explain these verses in the English. If not, then there is no real basis to have a discussion at all, my friend. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (i.e. the Bible).

Why explain scripture that is obvious?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why explain scripture that is obvious?

My thoughts exactly. The verses I propose are self explanatory in that they defend free will choice in regards to us in serving the Lord. Granted, I do believe in Prevenient Grace. This is the view that GOD illuminates a person at certain points in their life to see the truth of the gospel. After a person has been illuminated to see the truth: At this point it is up to them to decide of their own free will to either accept or reject the gospel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why explain scripture that is obvious?

Also, why have a Judgment? It makes no sense if it was GOD who placed them there. It would be like a man who created a robot who is programmed to murder, and then later putting that robot on trial for murder. It makes no sense. The robot was only following its programming. It could not help but to what it was doing.

It would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it poops on the carpet as a part of a condition of the dog being sick. The dog owner knows that this dog cannot control his pooping function, but he simply does not care. So he punishes the animal even if it has no control or say so otherwise. That to me would be cruel. You want me to believe GOD is this way. He is not. Sorry. God is good, and He is holy, righteous, and just.

 

[Dave L]

Also, why have a Judgment? It makes no sense if it was GOD who placed them there. It would be like a man who created a robot who is programmed to murder, and then later putting that robot on trial for murder. It makes no sense. The robot was only following its programming. It could not help but to what it was doing.

It would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it poops on the carpet as a part of a condition of the dog being sick. The dog owner knows that this dog cannot control his pooping function, but he simply does not care. So he punishes the animal even if it has no control or say so otherwise. That to me would be cruel. You want me to believe GOD is this way. He is not. Sorry. God is good, and He is holy, righteous, and just.

People want to sin and are judged for that. God only directs their steps in it.

 

[Dave L]

My thoughts exactly. The verses I propose are self explanatory in that they defend free will choice in regards to us in serving the Lord. Granted, I do believe in Prevenient Grace. This is the view that GOD illuminates a person at certain points in their life to see the truth of the gospel. After a person has been illuminated to see the truth: At this point it is up to them to decide of their own free will to either accept or reject the gospel.

Free will is foreign to the NT. People read it into scripture and change the meaning.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

People want to sin and are judged for that. God only directs their steps in it.

So it is not unconditional election. If God knows that they want to sin and that they would not come to Him (even if He zapped them with understanding to know of the gospel), then that is a condition as to why they will be condemned.

Again, your not getting it. If sin is the only choice available to them, and they are judged for that, then it is like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room for pooping on the carpet with the dog owner knowing that the dog has an uncontrollable pooping problem.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Free will is foreign to the NT. People read it into scripture and change the meaning.

The verses I posted strongly say so otherwise. Only a person who has been convinced by the readings of the Canons of Dort, or some other Calvinistic writings will they believe so otherwise. They will not be able to see those verses in Scripture that talk about free will if they latch onto these outside teachings as the truth.

 

[Dave L]

The verses I posted strongly say so otherwise. Only a person who has been convinced by the readings of the Canons of Dort, or some other Calvinistic writings will they believe so otherwise. They will not be able to see those verses in Scripture that talk about free will if they latch onto these outside teachings as the truth.

If you believe in free will, you will get a different message than someone who does not.

 

[Dave L]

So it is not unconditional election. If God knows that they want to sin and that they would not come to Him (even if He zapped them with understanding to know of the gospel), then that is a condition as to why they will be condemned.

Again, your not getting it. If sin is the only choice available to them, and they are judged for that, then it is like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room for pooping on the carpet with the dog owner knowing that the dog has an uncontrollable pooping problem.

The person wants to sin = they are liable for punishment, even though God directs their steps.

 

[JLB777]

God never offers the gospel to any. He announces it. It is never a matter of choice. If you believe = you are born again and he saved you. If you must choose to believe, it is because you don't believe.

Still waiting for you to post the scriptures that teach us we are saved first, then we believe.


Still waiting for you to post the scriptures that teach how we are saved if not by believing.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

The very thing that Jesus taught, is these folks needed to believe, so that they could be saved.



Each person who hears the Gospel must believe in order to be saved.


In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

• after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

JLB