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The fossil record explained

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pitabread

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We are discussing fish to land animals.... that if they came out onto the land permanently would be lunch.....

Same deal. There are plenty of examples of semi-aquatic organisms (fish and amphibians) that have appendages that serve in both water and land. Your assumption that the transition between one to the other would be non-functional is unwarranted and contradicted by what we observe in nature.

 
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Turkana

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How does the fossil record make the case for evolution?

You are asking this?

Well (31st attempt):

  1. the fossil record of geological formation A differs demonstrably from the biodiversity found in geological formation B. Example: in the geological formatioins of the Ediacaran we observe the typical Ediacaran biota. Nothing of the Ediacran biota was left after the Ediacaran-Cambrian mass extinction event. Because in none of the thousands post-Ediacaran paleontological site worldwide we literally can't find not even one single specimen of Ediacran fossil. On the other hand, in the Ediacaran we literally won't find not even one single specimen of the following major groups of extant life: arthropods (spiders, insects, crustaceans and the like), fish, plants, amphibians, reptiles, dinosaurs, birds, mammals. The fossils of these major groups of organisms are entirely lacking in the Ediacran formations, not one single specimen in any of the dozens of Ediacaran sites we have worldwide.
  2. the more distant formation A is situated in the geological from formation B, the larger the differences in biodiversity.
  3. these difference are found along all geological formations.
You know, the piece of information you have no answers for and thus have been dodging for 6 days now.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Ah, Walt Brown, mechanical engineer.

Expert on all science.

I'm not a geologist (like Brown) but I am a biologist (unlike Brown), and I know to ignore anything Brown says on any science by virtue of his willingness to lie for his cause. In his online book, he claims:

"An early computer-based study of cytochrome c, a protein used in energy production, compared 47 different forms of life. This study found many contradictions with evolution based on this one protein. For example, according to evolution, the rattlesnake should have been most closely related to other reptiles. Instead, of these 47 forms (all that were sequenced at that time), the one most similar to the rattlesnake was man."

One thing to note - he mentions "(all that were sequenced at that time)". He cites his son's science fair project as his source:

"R. B. Brown, Abstracts: 31st International Science and Engineering Fair (Washington, D.C.: Science Service, 1980), p. 113."

also note that he writes in the footnotes:

"While the rattlesnake’s cytochrome c was most similar to man’s, man’s cytochrome c was most similar to that of the rhesus monkey. (If this seems like a contradiction, consider that City A could be the closest city to City B, but City C might be the closest city to City A.)"



A couple of problems... I will not reinvent the wheel, so I will just post the following (bolding in the original; red text my emphasis):


Dave Wise has an interesting website called The Bullfrog Affair , where he talks about creationist claims over genetic distances. In particular, he debunks Duane Gish's claims. However, he also addresses Walt Brown's specific claims about cytochrome C, rattlesnakes, and man. Here is the relevant excerpt (somewhat lengthy, sorry--my emphasis in bold).

quote:In the meantime, other creationist watchers were getting into the act.
Two of them reported their experiences in _Creation/Evolution Newsletter_
(Vol.4 No.5, Sept/Oct 1984, pp 14-17).

Frank Arduini encountered a similar protein claim by Walter T. Brown Jr of
the Chicago area; his Center for Scientific Creation used to be ICR Midwest
Center. Arduini had had many dealings with Brown, whose response to Arduini's many requests for documentation was that he didn't need to supply evidence supporting his claims, rather it was responsibility of the evolutionists to disprove them.
One of Brown's claims that Arduini was especially interested in was that
the rattlesnake's closest biochemical relative is humans. However, Brown
demanded $70 from Arduini to provide that documentation.


Robert Kenney of Chicago fared somewhat better. In February 1984, he and
his wife visited the ICR in El Cajon, Calif. When he asked Gish directly for
documentation supporting his claims concerning fetal horse hemoglobin, Gish
became noticeably disturbed (that Kenney had Awbrey & Thwaites' article in
front of him throughout the conversation probably did not help Gish's
disposition much). Finally, Gish said that he had no documentation, but rather
that Kenney should see Gary Parker. Kenney's attempts to catch Parker during
his scheduled offices hours on two separate days failed. Before Kenney left,
Dr. Cummings promised to get the documentation for him. After nine months,
it still had not arrived.

Then in the Summer of 1984, Kenney wrote to Walter Brown about the fetal
horse hemoglobin. Brown responded with a telephone call. Kenney tried to get
Brown to confirm or deny the ICR's claims, or at least to pressure the ICR to
produce some kind of documentation. Brown refused, but instead offered another claim: rattlesnake proteins.
Brown claimed that on the basis of data from a 1978 study by Margaret
Dayhoff, comparisons of cytochrome c show that the rattlesnake is more closely related to humans that to any other organism. When Kenney asked Brown to provide the name of the scientific journal and the page number in which Dayhoff had reached this conclusion, Brown stated that he couldn't. Dayhoff had never reached such a conclusion, but rather Brown's son had used Dayhoff's data to reach that conclusion for a science fair project. It was Brown's son who had concluded that rattlesnakes are more closely related to humans by cytochrome c
than to any other organism.

For fifteen dollars, Brown sent Kenney photocopies of his son's project
(apparently, Brown's price depends on who you are)
. Kenney wrote:

"In the project I quickly found that the rattlesnake and humans differed
by only fourteen amino acids. Humans and rhesus monkeys differed by
one amino acid. Later, Brown called me again and then explained that
of the forty-seven organisms in the study, the one closest to the
RATTLESNAKE was the human, not that the one closest to the human was the rattlesnake. You see, among the forty-seven there were no other snakes."
(CEN Vol.4 No.5 Sep/Oct 84, pg 16)

Most of the other organisms in the study were as distantly related to the
rattlesnake as were humans; it is coincidence that human cytochrome c was just barely less different than the others. Obviously, this is just semantic
sleight-of-hand which can serve no other purpose than to mislead and it is so
blatant that Brown had to know what he was doing.

Later after a debate, Kenney found Brown telling a small group about
rattlesnakes being more closely related to humans than to any other organism.
When Kenney started explaining to the group how misleading that was, Brown
quickly changed the subject.



IOW - Brown's son took after his dad; daddy Brown in turn lied for Jesus.

This is why I do not trust Walt Brown on any subject.

Shall we discuss the genetics that shows Hippo's more closely related to whales?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090318153803.htm

Or an elephant shrew is closer to an elephant than to other shrews?
https://www.theverge.com/2014/6/27/5849120/new-mammal-elephant-shrew

Or how about these?

- Horse DNA is closer to bats than to cows
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9402-bats-and-horses-get-strangely-chummy/

- Mouse DNA is the same as 80% of the human genome
https://www.genome.gov/10001345/importance-of-mouse-genome/

- Sponges share 70% of human genes including for nerves and muscles
https://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/humans-share-70-of-our-dna-with-sea-sponges.html

- Kangaroo DNA unexpectedly contains huge chunks of the human genome
- Gorilla DNA is closer to humans than chimps in 15% of the genome
- Neanderthal DNA is fully human, closer than a chimp is to a chimp
- The chimp Y chromosome is "horrendously different" from our 'Y'
- The human Y is astoundingly similar all over the world lacking the expected mutational variation
- Mitochondrial Eve "would be a mere 6000 years old" by ignoring chimp DNA and calculating by mutation rates
- Roundworms have far more genes than Darwinist predictions,19,000, compared to our 20,500 genes
- The flatworm man-bug "ancestor" genome has "alarmed" evolutionists and is now dislodged from its place at the base.
- Snake DNA contains a quarter of the cow genome

Man, doesn't sound like they can really tell what is related to what using genome comparisons..... but what else can we expect since all were made from the same exact proton's, neutron's and electron's from that "dust".

Hydroplate theory fits better than their excuses for ignoring those huge sedimentary layers and trying to pretend it is laid down over millions of years without any sign of weathering......
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Same deal. There are plenty of examples of semi-aquatic organisms (fish and amphibians) that have appendages that serve in both water and land. Your assumption that the transition between one to the other would be non-functional is unwarranted and contradicted by what we observe in nature.


It is fully warranted. There is no evidence that this creature can survive outside of the water except for short periods. It would become lunch...... It can't outrun its predators, and would go extinct long before it could develop functioning legs capable of evading predators.

You all claimed the same thing about the Coelacanth until one was found and its DNA tested and your story fell apart and suddenly they don't want to talk about the Coelecanth being the prime transitional species between water and land anymore. All your stories fall apart over the years, but you just keep replacing them with more pigs teeth and tell new stories......
 
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pitabread

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It is fully warranted. There is no evidence that this creature can survive outside of the water except for short periods. It would become lunch...... It can't outrun its predators, and would go extinct long before it could develop functioning legs capable of evading predators.

This is just a completely unfounded claim and is again refuted just by examining semi-aquatic organisms. It sounds like your only argument is based on personal incredulity.

It's also worth noting that during the original water->land dwelling transition there wouldn't have been any land based predators for such organisms to worry about.

You all claimed the same thing about the Coelacanth until one was found and its DNA tested and your story fell apart and suddenly they don't want to talk about the Coelecanth being the prime transitional species between water and land anymore. All your stories fall apart over the years, but you just keep replacing them with more pigs teeth and tell new stories......

You're just babbling at this point. You were trying to argue that an organism can have a limb capable of serving functions on land and water, and that such a limb must become non-functional at some point. But you've offered nothing to support that but your own incredulity. That's not a good argument.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You are asking this?

Well (31st attempt):

  1. the fossil record of geological formation A differs demonstrably from the biodiversity found in geological formation B. Example: in the geological formatioins of the Ediacaran we observe the typical Ediacaran biota. Nothing of the Ediacran biota was left after the Ediacaran-Cambrian mass extinction event. Because in none of the thousands post-Ediacaran paleontological site worldwide we literally can't find not even one single specimen of Ediacran fossil. On the other hand, in the Ediacaran we literally won't find not even one single specimen of the following major groups of extant life: arthropods (spiders, insects, crustaceans and the like), fish, plants, amphibians, reptiles, dinosaurs, birds, mammals. The fossils of these major groups of organisms are entirely lacking in the Ediacran formations, not one single specimen in any of the dozens of Ediacaran sites we have worldwide.
  2. the more distant formation A is situated in the geological from formation B, the larger the differences in biodiversity.
  3. these difference are found along all geological formations.
You know, the piece of information you have no answers for and thus have been dodging for 6 days now.
Answered. Post 122 and #313 which you failed to give any justification for dismissing except ad-hominem remarks. But that's bceause you have no real science to back up your claims....

"When people have actual reasons for disagreeing with you, they offer those reasons without hesitation. Strangers on social media will cheerfully check your facts, your logic, and your assumptions. But when you start seeing ad hominem attacks that offer no reasons at all, that might be a sign that people in the mass hysteria bubble don’t understand what is wrong with your point of view except that it sounds more sensible than their own."

I am glad to see you all agree my idea of fossilization is more sensible than your own. Oh but that's right, they have no theory about how things fossilize except rapid burial in sediments from "local" floods. lol, local.....

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-fossil-record-explained.8078771/page-16#post-73115865
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Let me re-post an actual theory about how and why fossils formed in the past but do not form today.

"""Fossils require immediate rapid burial (in a sedimentary layer that hardens quickly due to the bacteria, the oxygen replaced with hydrogen) so that they do not start decomposing. Which is why you do not find them today. It takes a catastrophic event from underground water tables bringing those abundant bacteria to the surface and mixing them with the sediment brought up, then the oxygen is replaced by the hydrogen. This prevents surface bacteria which live on organic material using oxygen as a catalyst from decomposing them....

They just lack the logical faculties to put things together into a coherent whole.... Or just refuse to use logic to do so.... Their beliefs confine them to uniformatarianism instead of catastrophic processes and worldwide floods are beyond their ability to admit to, so they confine themselves to tiny little boxes of thought.....

https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-turn-sand-to-stone

"The treatment alters the consistency of sand, doing anything from solidifying it slightly to changing it into a substance as hard as marble. It blends a calcium solution, bacteria and other inexpensive compounds, forcing the bacteria to form carbonate precipitates with the calcium. This creates calcium carbonate, also called calcite, identical to limestone."

http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2016/10/24/bacteria-underground/

"“We didn’t expect to find this incredible microbial diversity. But then again, we know little about the roles of subsurface microbes in biogeochemical processes, and more broadly, we don’t really know what’s down there,” - at least they are honest about their lack of knowledge....

https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/life-bacterial-underground

"Microscopic organisms, often called microbes, are so small you can usually see them only under the microscope. Microbes living in rock beneath Earth's surface seem to be able to secure their own food. When microbes are mixed with ground-up minerals and heated, the minerals produce hydrogen, say the scientists behind a recent study. The microbes eat the hydrogen and stay alive. When the microbes aren't around, the minerals produce barely any hydrogen."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Superdeep_Borehole

"Another unexpected discovery was a large quantity of hydrogen gas. The mud that flowed out of the hole was described as "boiling" with hydrogen."

Ahh, but of course evolutionists can never put two and two together because the answer 4 actually explains the abundance of fossils in the sedimentary layers, laid down quickly due to catastrophic worldwide floods and hardening in days..... How and why they formed..... And why they do not form in abundance today......"""

Now if someone has an actual "scientific" criticism I would love to hear it so I can fine-tune my theory which I am still working on. This is but the briefest of outlines....
 
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Turkana

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Mammals? We are discussing fish to land animals.... that if they came out onto the land permanently would be lunch..... You are jumping your evolutionary pathway by a few hundred million years....

You really know nothing, do you? A complete ignorant tattling about things I knew better when I was 12 years old. I do not exaggerate. At that age I read a series called "the World of Science" and it included one volume about the history of life.

First, back to the theme of this thread. 32nd time and counting.

See, when you observe the fossil record, you will notice it's stratified. In the very lowest of layers where we find life, the oldest ones, we only find bacterial life (archaea and bacteria). I skip a few episodes to the Devonian when lobe-finned, bony fish started to conquer the land. Now how did the land looked like these days. Well, let's examine the fossil record of terrestrial sites of the Devonian formations for that. And what do we see? Only plants and arthropods were living on land. And some algal and bacterial mats as well.

The following groups of organisms are entirely missing in the fossil record of the Devonian - worldwide oberservable in all Devonian sites:
  • mammals
  • dinosaurs
  • birds
  • reptiles
  • flowering plants.
And either of these groups were also entirely missing in any older layer of formation.

but, wait, didn't I already point you out to that....

Wow, creationist news about the Devonian: "plants were eating Tiktaalik!" or "myrapod devoured an Ichthyostega!".

And even today we have about a dozen fish species that dwell the land on a regular basis, like some catfish or the mudskipper. And these animals, very unlike their Devonian counterparts, certainly have to deal with predators galore. And guess what they do when a predator threatens them? Well, they hasten back to the water. What a lovely choice such animals have. They play both sides.

I am getting fed up with this endless layman humbug.
 
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Ophiolite

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Correlate across millions of years???

What the truth too hard for you to say? Make up "missing" ancestors in an attempt to correlate between the forms for every single claimed split on every single tree?

It's ok, you can say it. Made up missing ancestors that allow you to bridge the chasms between actual species.....
What are you blabbing about? I was referencing the use of microfossils, such as foraminifera, recovered from drilled samples, to permit fine scale correlation of strata penetrated in oil and gas exploration/exploitation.

You asserted "Every single lifeform that ever existed is fully formed, and remains the same across what you claim is millions of years with no change at all."

It is only the changes that permit us to conduct such correlation over finer intervals than millions of years. Oil companies would not spend large sums employing such individuals, financing research and paying even more to top line consultants, if it didn't work.

Ergo, your assertion is shown to be nonsense by the facts.
 
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Turkana

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Answered. Post 122 and #313 which you failed to give any justification for dismissing except ad-hominem remarks. But that's bceause you have no real science to back up your claims....

"When people have actual reasons for disagreeing with you, they offer those reasons without hesitation. Strangers on social media will cheerfully check your facts, your logic, and your assumptions. But when you start seeing ad hominem attacks that offer no reasons at all, that might be a sign that people in the mass hysteria bubble don’t understand what is wrong with your point of view except that it sounds more sensible than their own."

I am glad to see you all agree my idea of fossilization is more sensible than your own. Oh but that's right, they have no theory about how things fossilize except rapid burial in sediments from "local" floods. lol, local.....

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-fossil-record-explained.8078771/page-16#post-73115865

Sorry, those posts do not address my points even closely.

They don't deal with the stratification of the fossil record whatsoever.
They only deal with your own talking points.
So you are a lioar and deceiver, no less.

I am glad to see you all agree my idea of fossilization is more sensible than your own?

We both agree that fossilization mostly is a rapid burial mostly in mud. So what part of my definition of fossilization differs from yours up to this moment? NO part.

DECEIVING by strawman fallacy by deliberately misinterpreting my position.

Anyway, the fossilization process is completely irrelevant here. It's your little plaything in order to not having to deal with the actual points I made. Which is the observable stratification of the fossil record.

You have no answer to that. And you and I know it.
 
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Turkana

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We already understand that mutations are deleterious.

Why are you not presenting this as an example of evolution? Is not random mutation evolution?

And if you believe the body just suddenly develops fully formed organs where they didn't exist before, you are worse off than I thought.....

Once again.... at some point in the flipper to leg scenario, the limb is a hindrance to both as it functions as neither a functional flipper, nor as a leg capable of evading predators in either environment...

And let's see, humans that have dwarfism are still fully formed, have developed no new appendages, and so your example fails miserably to describe the emergence of fully formed life that didn't exist before..... Now it might explain the difference between tall humans and short humans, but that's about it.....

Yet another post full of falsehoods lies and deceit.

And it already was explained to you by me a few posts ago.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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This is just a completely unfounded claim and is again refuted just by examining semi-aquatic organisms. It sounds like your only argument is based on personal incredulity.

It's also worth noting that during the original water->land dwelling transition there wouldn't have been any land based predators for such organisms to worry about.

Are you claiming that only one species evolved into land animals? How many underwent this random mutation all at the same time to get a viable population????


You're just babbling at this point. You were trying to argue that an organism can have a limb capable of serving functions on land and water, and that such a limb must become non-functional at some point. But you've offered nothing to support that but your own incredulity. That's not a good argument.

I have offered logical reasoning, you have offered only wishful thinking. At some point we both know it would not yet be a leg, but would no longer serve as a flipper. The two are mutually excuded. Either it functions as a foot or it functions as a flipper.

Nothing has ever been observed to actually come out of the water and to live on land. You offer only wishful thinking. Also no limbs in partial transition have ever been found. Every one that has been found is either a flipper or a foot. Fully formed........ Coelecanth died as the supposed transitional when we actually found one and realized it doesn't even walk on the bottom of the ocean....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Sorry, those posts do not address my points even closely.

They don't deal with the stratification of the fossil record whatsoever.
Except they do, each worldwide flood laid down it's own layer, which is why the strata is ummm, worldwide, not local to each area as local floods do today.....

They only deal with your own talking points.
So you are a lioar and deceiver, no less.
And since you only want to deal with ypour talking points, what's that make you... A liar and a deciever?

I am glad to see you all agree my idea of fossilization is more sensible than your own?

We both agree that fossilization mostly is a rapid burial mostly in mud. So what part of my definition of fossilization differs from yours up to this moment? NO part.
And this occurred worldwide how????? With the same strata worldwide, how?????

What, can't bring yourself to say worldwide flood?????

DECEIVING by strawman fallacy by deliberately misinterpreting my position.
That's what you keep CLAIMING, but I see no reasoning here that shows how this was accomplished, just bare unsupported claims......

Anyway, the fossilization process is completely irrelevant here. It's your little plaything in order to not having to deal with the actual points I made. Which is the observable stratification of the fossil record.

You have no answer to that. And you and I know it.

I addressed them, you ignored them.. Let me repost.....

1.
It is relevant how they were formed. Why do you avoid the need for rapid burial and rapid geological processes. Does that need scare you????? Does it call into question your ideas of uniformatarianism and so you find the need to avoid the process? The scablands were also claimed to have taken millions of years, but Harlen Bretz falsified that belief.....

It quite matters how geological processes formed features. Ask Harlen Bretz...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_Harlen_Bretz

"Bretz published a paper in 1923, arguing that the channeled scablands in Eastern Washington were caused by massive flooding in the distant past. This was seen as arguing for a catastrophic explanation of the geology, against the prevailing view of uniformitarianism, and Bretz's views were initially discredited. However, as the nature of the Ice Age was better understood, Bretz's original research was vindicated, and by the 1950s his conclusions were also vindicated."

"Bretz encountered resistance to his theories from the geology establishment of the day. The geology establishment was resistant to such a sweeping theory for the origin of a broad landscape for a variety of reasons, including lack of familiarity with the remote areas of the interior Pacific Northwest where the research was based, and the lack of status and reputation of Bretz in the eyes of the largely Ivy League-based geology elites. Furthermore, his theory implied the potential possibilities of a Biblical flood, which the scientific community strongly rejected."

2.

Why would you expect to find more mobile animals trapped in lower sedimentary layers as they struggled upwards to escape the rising waters and the less mobile life was buried? But as I explained.... if you understood how sediments settle.......

3.

Or the less mobile forms unable to escape the rising waters were buried first.........

Polystrate fossils falsify your ideas since those of trees show no root stocks found in the same strata or stigmaria.

Lack of weathering between layers also destroys your beliefs, not that you will ever admit to it...... If the layers actually took hundreds of millions of years, weathering and soil between the differing sedimentary layers would be unavoidable. No such is found......

So perhaps the geological record is trying to tell you something different, but you just refuse to see it... because it might make you question your beliefs about age....

Polystrate fossils showing no affects from the millions of years of weathering they would have been subjected to while the layers formed under your beliefs. No soil layers between the sedimentary layers. No river channels between the layers or any signs of erosion. All the strata is laid down flat, except where later geological processes uplifted them, impossible in reality as we observe the formation of hills and valleys today due to weathering and inconsistent erosion.....

No, it is simply easier to ignore the falsifying evidence....

Not to mention the vast amounts of bones found flattened, which could only occur by rapid burial and pressure before the bones had time to fossilize.... Not sitting around for millions of years as the layers slowly accumulated.....

You can continue to try to handwave the falsifying evidence away, but it is not going anywhere....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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What are you blabbing about? I was referencing the use of microfossils, such as foraminifera, recovered from drilled samples, to permit fine scale correlation of strata penetrated in oil and gas exploration/exploitation.

You asserted "Every single lifeform that ever existed is fully formed, and remains the same across what you claim is millions of years with no change at all."

It is only the changes that permit us to conduct such correlation over finer intervals than millions of years. Oil companies would not spend large sums employing such individuals, financing research and paying even more to top line consultants, if it didn't work.

Ergo, your assertion is shown to be nonsense by the facts.

Lol, looking for a foraminifera and finding them do not constitute proof that they became something else.... What PR nonsense are you spouting?????

Hear tell the oil companies story your just blabbering..

http://energy4me.org/all-about-energy/what-is-energy/energy-sources/petroleum/#5

"In the unrelenting search for more oil and gas, innovation plays an unquestionable role. As large oil and gas fields become increasingly difficult to find, geologists, geophysicists and engineers employ new technologies, such as seismic, to uncover resources that just 10 years ago were unimaginable. Seismic is a technology that bounces sound waves off rock formations deep below the surface of the Earth to provide explorers with a picture of the subsurface, often revealing locations where oil and gas may be trapped. The technology of finding oil has even incorporated 3D visualization tools from Microsoft’s Xbox game console! The system will help geoscientists examine and interact with 3D models of the Earth.

In order to process the massive amounts of information collected from seismic surveys, mathematicians, physicists and other scientists are constantly developing new computer algorithms to find complex patterns that enhance our understanding of the land beneath us. If we are to continue finding new fields hidden deep inside the Earth, breakthroughs in computer processing power and data management are necessary."

But they do use fossils....

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/fosrec/ONeill.html

"Nearby wells have been drilled through the Corsair fault and the section beneath the fault is easily recognizable by distinctive benthic foraminiferal "marker species". The proposed well was drilled, but unfortunately did not find hydrocarbons."

So much for paying those guys, might as well just use seismic data, oh wait, they did..... by the time they drill enough holes to give the paleontologists an understanding of the area they have usually already struck oil by blind luck..... and the sleezebag evolutionist then takes all the credit.....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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The following groups of organisms are entirely missing in the fossil record of the Devonian - worldwide oberservable in all Devonian sites:
  • mammals
  • dinosaurs
  • birds
  • reptiles
  • flowering plants.

Flowering plants - strike one....

http://www.devoniantimes.org/who/pages/lyginopterids.html

"Placotheca indicates earlier diversification of pollen organs than previously expected and is highly derived among the early pollen organs with trilete prepollen."

Why would there be animals, dinosaurs, birds or reptiles????

Ahhhh, so you still think the earth was created 6,000 years ago, of course you would expect to find them all in the same layer. Sad you don't understand the Genesis story is an analogy of the six creation periods of the earth....
 
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pitabread

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Are you claiming that only one species evolved into land animals? How many underwent this random mutation all at the same time to get a viable population????

*sigh* No, that's not what I'm claiming.

Organisms evolve in response to their environment and that environment includes other organisms. Thus, organisms can (and do) evolve in response to each other. This is especially evident with predator-prey relationships. It wouldn't make sense for predators to evolve to become fully terrestrial with no terrestrial prey.

Thus, in the transition from fully aquatic to semi-aquatic to terrestrial evolution you would have full populations evolving in response to one another.

I have offered logical reasoning, you have offered only wishful thinking. At some point we both know it would not yet be a leg, but would no longer serve as a flipper. The two are mutually excuded. Either it functions as a foot or it functions as a flipper.

There is no logic here. It's just an unsupported assertion which is blatantly contradicted by the fact we have contemporary species with limbs that serve both functions at the same time (aquatic and terrestrial movement).

Also no limbs in partial transition have ever been found. Every one that has been found is either a flipper or a foot.

Google the limbs of the spiny softshell turtle and tell me whether it has flippers or feet. In fact, you should probably google turtle and tortoise limbs in general since you'll wind up with pictures of a range of limb types. Which is not surprising given that these animals occupy environmental niches from almost fully aquatic to fully terrestrial.

You can find similar examples of multi-function limbs among many other animal groups including fish (mudskippers, blennies), amphibians (frogs), and mammals (otters, seals).
 
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dad

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The following groups of organisms are entirely missing in the fossil record of the Devonian - worldwide oberservable in all Devonian sites:
  • mammals
  • dinosaurs
  • birds
  • reptiles
  • flowering plants..
No. Their remains are missing.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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But just contrast what you believe with a Young Earth creationist. Or a creationist who believes in appearance of age.

Those alternatives are radically different from what you believe when it comes to the history of the planet.

This is true.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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You are asking this?

Well (31st attempt):

  1. the fossil record of geological formation A differs demonstrably from the biodiversity found in geological formation B. Example: in the geological formatioins of the Ediacaran we observe the typical Ediacaran biota. Nothing of the Ediacran biota was left after the Ediacaran-Cambrian mass extinction event. Because in none of the thousands post-Ediacaran paleontological site worldwide we literally can't find not even one single specimen of Ediacran fossil. On the other hand, in the Ediacaran we literally won't find not even one single specimen of the following major groups of extant life: arthropods (spiders, insects, crustaceans and the like), fish, plants, amphibians, reptiles, dinosaurs, birds, mammals. The fossils of these major groups of organisms are entirely lacking in the Ediacran formations, not one single specimen in any of the dozens of Ediacaran sites we have worldwide.
  2. the more distant formation A is situated in the geological from formation B, the larger the differences in biodiversity.
  3. these difference are found along all geological formations.
You know, the piece of information you have no answers for and thus have been dodging for 6 days now.

This is evidence for ruin/restoration, not evolution.
 
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