• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

The Flood

Status
Not open for further replies.

dukeofhazzard

Regular Member
Aug 15, 2007
498
57
✟23,418.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Because they drowned before they had a chance to write about it? And the cultures that came afterward didn't know what happened, except what was written in the Scriptures, or told to them by someone?

AV, I'm sure you are aware of the restrictions placed on scripture back then. Not just anyone could read them; certainly not people from other cultures.

It also does not explain why these flood stories omit Noah (if Noah and his family were the only survivors, why leave them out?), and why some predate the Biblical account.
 
Upvote 0

Naraoia

Apprentice Biologist
Sep 30, 2007
6,682
313
On edge
Visit site
✟30,998.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
It also does not explain why these flood stories omit Noah (if Noah and his family were the only survivors, why leave them out?), and why some predate the Biblical account.
Well, they do tend to include a lucky guy who was told by the god(s) to build some sort of a vessel... Just look at other Middle-Eastern flood myths on Wiki. It looks an awful lot like the Hebrews nicked Ziusudra, Utnapishtim or whatever he was called from some other culture and coloured the myth according to their own flavour.
 
Upvote 0

thaumaturgy

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2006
7,541
882
✟12,333.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
AV, I'm sure you are aware of the restrictions placed on scripture back then. Not just anyone could read them; certainly not people from other cultures.

It also does not explain why these flood stories omit Noah (if Noah and his family were the only survivors, why leave them out?), and why some predate the Biblical account.

Duke,
I'm afraid you are not following the rules of the game. You see, AV starts with the Bible being true, even when reality or data speak directly against it.

If reality conflicts with the Bible, reality is wrong.

So, the rules of the game are:

AV's JOB: Defend the Bible using on the Bible.
OUR JOB: Disprove the Bible only within the constraints that the Bible is never wrong.

See, it's "easy peasy" as our Brit friends say!

(This is also why the brits say things like "that isn't cricket" when something isn't done right, because like cricket this games just goes on and on and on and on and onandonandonandonandon....)
 
  • Like
Reactions: AV1611VET
Upvote 0

LittleNipper

Contributor
Mar 9, 2005
9,011
174
MOUNT HOLLY, NEW JERSEY
✟10,660.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'm pretty sure that thaumaturgy proved that the Grand Canyon has absolutely nothing to do with a flood, global or otherwise. Why don't you address him instead?
I would not say that. A softer foundation will cause a stronger slab above to break and fracture as it is washed away. An earthquake could easily cause hard layers to break, providing easy access to the softer foundation stone....
 
Upvote 0

Vene

In memory of ChordatesLegacy
Oct 20, 2007
4,155
319
Michigan
✟28,465.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I would not say that. A softer foundation will cause a stronger slab above to break and fracture as it is washed away. An earthquake could easily cause hard layers to break, providing easy access to the softer foundation stone....
Where is the tectonic plate under the Grand Canyon? And since when does a flood cause earthquakes?
 
Upvote 0

thaumaturgy

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2006
7,541
882
✟12,333.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I would not say that. A softer foundation will cause a stronger slab above to break and fracture as it is washed away. An earthquake could easily cause hard layers to break, providing easy access to the softer foundation stone....

But Nipper, the key is WHICH layers?

Remember the Grand Canyon alone shows at least 2 instances of the ocean over Arizona.

The key is that you have to come up with the details of your hypothesis. We've shown you a variety of choices you can pick from.

Pick. We'll go from there.

Don't just talk aroundthe issue. Don't just gin up some "harder slabs over softer slabs" stuff, explain in detail how you think this works.

We can work with that. We can't work with your ideas unless you make them clear.

If you are unable to clarify your ideas then I have to wonder why you would prefer them to those ideas presented by scientists who have actually studied and more clearly understand what is going on.

I'm not an expert in this. My area was organic geochemistry. But I do have a geology background and I can point you in the direction of resources. I've taught geology several places in the eastern half of the U.S. so hopefully I can help you understand what the scientist actually know versus what you just imagine.
 
Upvote 0

Frumious Bandersnatch

Contributor
Mar 4, 2003
6,390
334
79
Visit site
✟30,931.00
Faith
Unitarian
I would not say that. A softer foundation will cause a stronger slab above to break and fracture as it is washed away. An earthquake could easily cause hard layers to break, providing easy access to the softer foundation stone....
What hard layers? What are you talking about? You do realize that the page that you pointed to as evidence of the flood claims that animals were running up sand dunes to escape a flood that was in the process of forming the sand dunes they were supposedly running up don't you? I would think that even you could see that this is nonsense, especially since those animals should have died long before when thousands of feet of sedimentary rocks were deposited below them.

You should also talk to a structural geologist sometime about the strength required for a rock wall to support a cliff thousands of feet high. Such a wall simply can't be carved "rapidly" by a flood.

Another thing to consider is that the Grand Canyon is an equilibrium drainage basin. Tributary creeks come it at the level of the Colorado river unless they have been blocked by lava flows or landslides, even creeks with relatively low water flow come in at river level and some come in at right angles to the river. This is simply not possible if the Canyon were formed in short time by a flood a few thousand years ago.


Even though creationist try to distort Grand Canyon geology to make it appear to be evidence for the global flood, the geology of the Colorado Plateau and the Canyon carved in it effectively disprove the myths of a young earth and global flood and analysis of creationist arguments consistently shows the intellectual bankruptcy of so-called "flood geology".
 
Upvote 0

LittleNipper

Contributor
Mar 9, 2005
9,011
174
MOUNT HOLLY, NEW JERSEY
✟10,660.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Where is the tectonic plate under the Grand Canyon? And since when does a flood cause earthquakes?
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundreth year of Noah's life, on the seventeeth day all the springs of the great deep burst forth.....

Sure sounds like geologic activity to me.

What about this?

The voice of the LORD strikes with flashes of lightning. The voice of the LORD shakes the Desert of Kadesh. The voice of the LORD twists the oaks and strips the forests bare. And in HIS temple all cry, "Glory!" The LORD sat enthroned over the FLOOD; the LORD is enthroned as King forever. (Psalm 29:7-10)
 
Upvote 0

FishFace

Senior Veteran
Jan 12, 2007
4,535
169
37
✟28,130.00
Faith
Atheist
Not on your life --- when your idle, unhelpful speculation

Please point to the idle, unhelpful speculation I engaged in. I notice some informed, evidence-and-fact-based writing, but no speculation.

So I repeat my request that you stop speculating idly and unhelpfully on topics about which you admit to having little to no knowledge.
 
Upvote 0

LittleNipper

Contributor
Mar 9, 2005
9,011
174
MOUNT HOLLY, NEW JERSEY
✟10,660.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You made mention of hard layers covering softer layers. It rain for fourty day and nights. The FLOOD continued for 150 days before it began to go down. Lots likely happened in various places. This would have forced both man and animals on the move for well over a month.
 
Upvote 0

FishFace

Senior Veteran
Jan 12, 2007
4,535
169
37
✟28,130.00
Faith
Atheist
Joe's car belongs to Joe.

Bob's car belongs to _____ ?

I can, however, from the Scriptures give you some animals that are on it, that aren't on man's taxon.

All this is irrelevant since you're just admitting again that "God's Taxon" is a useless concept and cannot be used to make a point in an argument.
 
Upvote 0

Vene

In memory of ChordatesLegacy
Oct 20, 2007
4,155
319
Michigan
✟28,465.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundreth year of Noah's life, on the seventeeth day all the springs of the great deep burst forth.....

Sure sounds like geologic activity to me.

What about this?

The voice of the LORD strikes with flashes of lightning. The voice of the LORD shakes the Desert of Kadesh. The voice of the LORD twists the oaks and strips the forests bare. And in HIS temple all cry, "Glory!" The LORD sat enthroned over the FLOOD; the LORD is enthroned as King forever. (Psalm 29:7-10)
Let's rephrase that, give me documented evidence, not a story in a book that isn't regarded as scientific fact. Or better yet, address the issues raised by thaumaturgy and Frumious Bandersnatch.
 
Upvote 0

dukeofhazzard

Regular Member
Aug 15, 2007
498
57
✟23,418.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Well, they do tend to include a lucky guy who was told by the god(s) to build some sort of a vessel... Just look at other Middle-Eastern flood myths on Wiki. It looks an awful lot like the Hebrews nicked Ziusudra, Utnapishtim or whatever he was called from some other culture and coloured the myth according to their own flavour.

I see what you're saying here... what I meant was if there *was* a worldwide flood, then everyone on earth would have been descended from said "lucky guy" ;) and would most likely know his name (given that the worldwide flood would have happened approximately 4000 years ago and some of the accounts date from 3600 years ago -- seems like his name and important details wouldn't have disappeared that quickly among his family).
 
Upvote 0

dukeofhazzard

Regular Member
Aug 15, 2007
498
57
✟23,418.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Duke,
I'm afraid you are not following the rules of the game. You see, AV starts with the Bible being true, even when reality or data speak directly against it.

If reality conflicts with the Bible, reality is wrong.

So, the rules of the game are:

AV's JOB: Defend the Bible using on the Bible.
OUR JOB: Disprove the Bible only within the constraints that the Bible is never wrong.

See, it's "easy peasy" as our Brit friends say!

(This is also why the brits say things like "that isn't cricket" when something isn't done right, because like cricket this games just goes on and on and on and on and onandonandonandonandon....)

LOL. You are so right! How could I have forgotten! :doh:

I'd make a joke or two, but it would sound like I'm dissing a book that I do hold dear, even if I don't take every story literally. :angel:
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheOutsider
Upvote 0

LittleNipper

Contributor
Mar 9, 2005
9,011
174
MOUNT HOLLY, NEW JERSEY
✟10,660.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
But Nipper, the key is WHICH layers?

Remember the Grand Canyon alone shows at least 2 instances of the ocean over Arizona.

The key is that you have to come up with the details of your hypothesis. We've shown you a variety of choices you can pick from.

Pick. We'll go from there.

Don't just talk aroundthe issue. Don't just gin up some "harder slabs over softer slabs" stuff, explain in detail how you think this works.

We can work with that. We can't work with your ideas unless you make them clear.

If you are unable to clarify your ideas then I have to wonder why you would prefer them to those ideas presented by scientists who have actually studied and more clearly understand what is going on.

I'm not an expert in this. My area was organic geochemistry. But I do have a geology background and I can point you in the direction of resources. I've taught geology several places in the eastern half of the U.S. so hopefully I can help you understand what the scientist actually know versus what you just imagine.
We do not know that the canyon area might not have been a sea prior to the FLOOD. So there might easily be a pre-FLOOD situation, a FLOOD situation, and a post FLOOD situation. Some have suggested that there was a land locked lake which spilled over and drained very quickly. I'm sure that there are other possiblities that simply do not fit Uniformitarianist's mold, so that they were discarded for the bennifit of evolution and millions/billions of years......
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,295
52,679
Guam
✟5,164,003.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So basically, and I mean this respectfully, you believe God performs millions of miracles to make the ark happen.

I believe He would have performed ten million, if that's what it took. Like I have always said, nature is hostile (but obedient) to God. When God says, "Stand aside," nature stands aside.

When the rapture occurs, millions of miracles, in the form of people defying the law/theory/whatever-it-is-called-this month of gravity is going to occur in the twinkling of an eye.

That's fine, but then don't try to argue the ark in naturalistic (i.e., no need for a god) terms.

Um ... okay ... I'll stop doing that - (if I ever start).

There are just way too many holes in the story for it to have been done through completely natural terms...

Do you have me mixed up with someone else?
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,295
52,679
Guam
✟5,164,003.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The Grand Canyon is such a good "teaching base" for so many topics in sedimentology and stratigraphy that this is a great jumping off point.

Was that a play on words?
 
Upvote 0

Frumious Bandersnatch

Contributor
Mar 4, 2003
6,390
334
79
Visit site
✟30,931.00
Faith
Unitarian
We do not know that the canyon area might not have been a sea prior to the FLOOD. So there might easily be a pre-FLOOD situation, a FLOOD situation, and a post FLOOD situation.
So why can't creationists tell us which deposits are preflood, flood and post flood. Saying something "might easily have been" and actually explaining the details of what really happened are two very different things. All you are doing is useless handwaving that explains nothing.
Some have suggested that there was a land locked lake which spilled over and drained very quickly.
This sounds like Steve Austin's bogus model but there is no evidence for this lake and if the sediments had still been soft enough to be carved into a mile deep canyon it would look very different than the Grand Canyon we see today. It would not be an equilbrium drainage basin for one thing and the walls could not be as steep as those we see for another. Austin's model simply doesn't work to explain the actual Grand Canyon. It is not as totally stupid as his page on AiG on the Coconinos that you were kind enough to link for us, to highlight the absurdity of flood geology, but it still doesn't work.

I'm sure that there are other possiblities that simply do not fit Uniformitarianist's mold, so that they were discarded for the bennifit of evolution and millions/billions of years......
Long before Darwin published on evolution scientists including creationists understood that the earth is a least many millions of years old as you well know. If you don't know it read History of the Collapse of Flood Geology and a Young Earth by evangelical Christian and former YEC Davis Young.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.