~~The Flood~~ Global or Local???

[rmwilliamsll]

http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/26/26_1a.html
http://www.crsq.org/crsq/articles/26/26_1a.html

so?
the tree rings databases are made up of thousands of tree cores, aligned together by region, and backedup by C14 dating of the particular rings.

this is sniping the science. it has been known since the beginning that individual trees can do odd things. it is a statistical matching program, keyed to region, tree type, width pattern of the rings.

-----------
the argument.

maybe bristlecone pines can under some circumstances lay down 2 rings in one year.

therefore the whole field of dendrochronology has to be thrown out.


how many tree cores do you think are in the major tree ring databases?

but, to your credit, it is engaging at the right level. this is what doing science is all about. your evidence shows that you must take multiple samples, you must regionalize the data, you have to be careful with initial assumptions (one growth ring per year) and work to minimize the effect of wrong assumptions.

it however doesn't change the effectiveness of tree ring data. it doesn't rely on one tree, nor 10, nor 100, but what appears to be in the high 100K's

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ftp-treering.html

 

[ttreg]

global: the Holy Bible is perfect no errors

 

[Dannager]

global: the Holy Bible is perfect no errors

Except for the parts where it is shown to be factually incorrect by a modern understanding of science.

 

[Prophetable]

http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/26/26_1a.html
http://www.crsq.org/crsq/articles/26/26_1a.html

so?
the tree rings databases are made up of thousands of tree cores, aligned together by region, and backedup by C14 dating of the particular rings.

this is sniping the science. it has been known since the beginning that individual trees can do odd things. it is a statistical matching program, keyed to region, tree type, width pattern of the rings.

-----------
the argument.

maybe bristlecone pines can under some circumstances lay down 2 rings in one year.

therefore the whole field of dendrochronology has to be thrown out.


how many tree cores do you think are in the major tree ring databases?

but, to your credit, it is engaging at the right level. this is what doing science is all about. your evidence shows that you must take multiple samples, you must regionalize the data, you have to be careful with initial assumptions (one growth ring per year) and work to minimize the effect of wrong assumptions.

it however doesn't change the effectiveness of tree ring data. it doesn't rely on one tree, nor 10, nor 100, but what appears to be in the high 100K's

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ftp-treering.html

I believe it does change the effectiveness of tree ring data, as the experiment makes the point that large climate change can make a difference. And we do not have the weather report for the last 5000 years. Data from this scientists experiment would fit a model where the earths climate was quite different from today. This could have taken place immediately after a global flood. This hypothesis is plausible, especially when one considers the historical/geneological evidence from the bible.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I believe it does change the effectiveness of tree ring data, as the experiment makes the point that large climate change can make a difference. And we do not have the weather report for the last 5000 years. Data from this scientists experiment would fit a model where the earths climate was quite different from today. This could have taken place immediately after a global flood. This hypothesis is plausible, especially when one considers the historical/geneological evidence from the bible.

a global flood doesn't make a tree add an extra growth ring or two.
it kills it. washes it away, buries it. etc....yet there are 12K years of data in several well studied forests.

you miss the point, we have tree ring data back 12K years, without a gap for the flood.
the trees weren't washed away but are in situ, with their rings intact for people to count and put into the data base.

yes, we do have a weather report, not just for the last 5K years but for the last 12K in tree rings and 100Kya+ in ice cores.

you think that biogeography of animals especially on islands is a problem for a global Noahic flood, you ought to think hard about how the trees got back to were they were. because Noah didn't take tree seeds on the ark.....

but the big point.
uniformity of the weather is a conclusion of several databases, tree rings, ice cores, lake varves.

 

[dad]

...
The Deluge is and remains myth. A good myth for its truths in morality and faith/doctrine, but is not factual in terms of geologic history.

Much of the world was covered with ice, we have a record of that. That is water that got cold. They say it covered huge areas of continents. In areas even elsewhere there are 'scratch marks' they try to associate with the ice age as well, I think by having the continents move. I wonder if all this might be related to the flood? If the wtaer came down from above, some great climate change perhaps, that ended up with that flood water freezing? Could this be the missing record??

additionally:

there are intact civilizations with writing preserved throughout the proposed time period in at least China, Babylonian and Egypt. inhabited villages in Turkey, Mesoamerica, and in the Andes, for just a few example.

After the flood, your dating is off.

there are trees growing now that were alive during the proposed Noahic flood time. additionally using now dead trees puts the dating process back 12kya. well past the proposed YEC creation date, let alone earlier than the flood. trees can not have lived through the flood.

Trees could grow in days then, tree rings in the far past are not a time record at all. Doesn't matter how many there are. All they do is assume present growth rates. The bible indicates, possibly something wonderfully different.

there are ice cores demonstrating that those ice sheets existed throughout the proposed time period. ice sheets and glaciers can not have survived a global flood.

likewise lake varves exist which falsify the universal, global interpretation of the Noahic flood. lake varves could not have remained intact through the flood.

Pre flood, many of them, if not all. I would think.

there is more, but this is more than sufficient to falsify a universal, global Noahic flood ....

Nope.

 

[Jadis40]

I used to believe that the flood was global, until I was confronted with scientific evidence that, after I reviewed the information with an open mind, finally came to the conclusion that there was overwhelming evidence to support the claim that it was a localized event.

Not to mention the fact that Egyptian mythology, as someone else pointed out, and echoed in the link below, doesn't have a flood myth.

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/science/flood.html

".... there is no sign of.... a universal deluge in the third millennium B.C. Egyptian history, for instance, carries right through the entire third millennium B.C. without any sign of a break or any mention of a flood."
- Isaac Asimov, In The Beginning, (1981) p. 165

"Flood traditions are lacking in semi-arid Central Asia, which is hardly surprising...."
"The only legend from southern Africa involving any sort of inundation is not a typical deluge tradition at all, but one which seeks to explain the origin of a particular lake.... This tale was collected by Livingstone, and was the only one he encountered in all his years of missionary work which had any resemblance to a flood tradition."
- Dorothy B. Vitaliano, Legends of the Earth (1976) pp. 163-164

 

[dad]

I used to believe that the flood was global, until I was confronted with scientific evidence that, after I reviewed the information with an open mind, finally came to the conclusion that there was overwhelming evidence to support the claim that it was a localized event.

Not to mention the fact that Egyptian mythology, as someone else pointed out, and echoed in the link below, doesn't have a flood myth.

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/science/flood.html

".... there is no sign of.... a universal deluge in the third millennium B.C. Egyptian history, for instance, carries right through the entire third millennium B.C. without any sign of a break or any mention of a flood."
- Isaac Asimov, In The Beginning, (1981) p. 165

"Flood traditions are lacking in semi-arid Central Asia, which is hardly surprising...."
"The only legend from southern Africa involving any sort of inundation is not a typical deluge tradition at all, but one which seeks to explain the origin of a particular lake.... This tale was collected by Livingstone, and was the only one he encountered in all his years of missionary work which had any resemblance to a flood tradition."
- Dorothy B. Vitaliano, Legends of the Earth (1976) pp. 163-164

A couple of things.
"Egyptian Evidence. There is no Egyptian flood tradition in their literature. It is important to realize that recorded Egyptian history begins about 3000 BC. Egyptian prehistory was probably very short, with little time passing after the great Flood. Although Egyptian historians consider the prehistorical period to be quite long, as seen above, C14 dates are not useful before 3000 BC."
http://www.ancientdays.net/universalflood.htm

And that 3000 years is based on dating techniques that depend on the past being the same as the present. That is not provable. I say it was different, as the bible indicates.

So, we have people who couldn't even write after the flood here. Makes sense, remember, Babel was only about 100 years after the flood. These guys went back to drawing pictures for language.

One account in Egypt, for example has this building built for one of Noah's sons. (Ham) http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/templeoforacle.htm

"Another tell maintains that the temple existed as early as 1385 BC, and was built in honor of Ham, the son of Noah, by Danaus the Egyptian"