The first heresy

[Aaron112]

Is it a sin not to keep Sabbath? Has Sabbath ever been given to Christians to keep? Is it a law given to us?

Whatever is not by faith is sin, whether keeping Sabbath, obeying Yahweh, or not .

 

[trophy33]

Whatever is not by faith is sin, whether keeping Sabbath, obeying Yahweh, or not .

Keeping Sabbath is obeying God?

 

[Aaron112]

Keeping Sabbath is obeying God?

A multitude of people keep sabbath by rote, for show, for what other people think,
not obeying God.

 

[trophy33]

A multitude of people keep sabbath by rote, for show, for what other people think,
not obeying God.

OK, but that was not my question...

 

[Aaron112]

OK, but that was not my question...

Yet it was answered. If an enemy agent comes , as they have, to a country,
and obeys all the laws, yet their goal is to destroy enough people for another country to take over,
which country are they obeying ?

 

[Aaron112]

It is not required for salvation.

First thought: it might be in some way(s). Other than eternal salvation, there is salvation/ healing from numerous other things.
Also, by association - someone who simply disobeys all or many or a few instructions, included with the 4th Word, wilfully disobeying and not just being unaware or ignorant,
will have nothing but trouble, perhaps judgment , for it.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I am not asking about salvation. Why do you even talk about salvation in this context?

Because I am not just answering YOU but I am writing to the others who are following this thread. They need to know that keeping the Sabbath faithfully is NOT required for salvation. You should never judge anyone for keeping or not keeping the Sabbath. That is why I am talking about salvation in my replies to you because you aren't the only person I am trying to reach. Do you understand now? Do you grasp now why I even talk about salvation in this context? It's not for you alone.

Is it a sin not to keep Sabbath? Has Sabbath ever been given to Christians to keep? Is it a law given to us?

No, it is not a sin. Paul explains that one man esteems one day above the others, and another man esteems all days the same. Let every man be persuaded in his own mind. He also writes to not judge another man in regard to a new moon or Sabbath day. We have the liberty to observe the Sabbath if we want and we have the liberty to worship God on any other day of the week. even Sunday,

One word answers would be great, just yes or no.

One word answers would not be great. A yes or no answer would not work because then all you would do is respond by attacking my position. That is why a yes or no will not do. I have a suspicion you just want to argue and thereby you are wanting only yes or no answers so you can have an excuse to attack what I believe. So, I added more than just yes or no answers so you have something to think about. By the way, why do you want only yes or no answers in this discussion? Be for real now.

 

[trophy33]

Yet it was answered. If an enemy agent comes , as they have, to a country,
and obeys all the laws, yet their goal is to destroy enough people for another country to take over,
which country are they obeying ?

Why dont you answer my question clearly? Yes or no would be ideal.

 

[trophy33]

Because I am not just answering YOU but I am writing to the others who are following this thread. They need to know that keeping the Sabbath faithfully is NOT required for salvation. You should never judge anyone for keeping or not keeping the Sabbath. That is why I am talking about salvation in my replies to you because you aren't the only person I am trying to reach. Do you understand now? Do you grasp now why I even talk about salvation in this context? It's not for you alone.

You should address the post you are reacting to, or else the conversation becomes unclear and a monologue.

No, it is not a sin. Paul explains that one man esteems one day above the others, and another man esteems all days the same. Let every man be persuaded in his own mind. He also writes to not judge another man in regard to a new moon or Sabbath day. We have the liberty to observe the Sabbath if we want and we have the liberty to worship God on any other day of the week. even Sunday,

"No" would suffice.

One word answers would not be great. A yes or no answer would not work because then all you would do is respond by attacking my position. That is why a yes or no will not do. I have a suspicion you just want to argue and thereby you are wanting only yes or no answers so you can have an excuse to attack what I believe. So, I added more than just yes or no answers so you have something to think about. By the way, why do you want only yes or no answers in this discussion? Be for real now.

As you see, I have no reason to attack your "no", so all these other words are useless. I want yes/no answers because you were not clear, just talking about things around instead of answering my questions clearly.

People in this forum really need to learn to be concise, clear and on point.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

You should address the post you are reacting to, or else the conversation becomes unclear and a monologue.

No it doesn't. I have read many posts that answer the post they are answering to and also answer questions that spectators may have. I "should" not address only the post I am reacting to. That is not a rule in this forum.

"No" would suffice.

No, it would not suffice. I have learned in forums such as these a simple "No" or "Yes" does not suffice.

As you see, I have no reason to attack your "no", so all these other words are useless. I want yes/no answers because you were not clear, just talking about things around instead of answering my questions clearly.

These words are not worth something to you because all you want to do is argue. I am not only writing to you I am writing for anyone who may read this thread. I read other threads besides the ones I am active on and many people are very good at answering questions I already have when they are responding to someone else. It appears they are answering more than just the opponent but addressing others who may have questions and following the debate. I really appreciate people that do that and are considerate of all.

People in this forum really need to learn to be concise, clear and on point.

Yes, I agree 100%. That includes you too. It seems you just want something to argue about. Do you have animosity to those who observe the Sabbath?

 

[trophy33]

No it doesn't. I have read many posts that answer the post they are answering to and also answer questions that spectators may have. I "should" not address only the post I am reacting to. That is not a rule in this forum.

No, it would not suffice. I have learned in forums such as these a simple "No" or "Yes" does not suffice.

These words are not worth something to you because all you want to do is argue. I am not only writing to you I am writing for anyone who may read this thread. I read other threads besides the ones I am active on and many people are very good at answering questions I already have when they are responding to someone else. It appears they are answering more than just the opponent but addressing others who may have questions and following the debate. I really appreciate people that do that and are considerate of all.

Yes, I agree 100%. That includes you too. It seems you just want something to argue about. Do you have animosity to those who observe the Sabbath?

You still repeat I just want to argue and thats why I want just yes/no and short posts. As I said I wanted clear answers from you, because you are hiding them behind many words.

I argue with people who teach we are commanded to observe Sabbath, because its not true. I basically argue against mostly everything that comes from SDA, by a coincidence - from YEC to plant-based diet to Sabbath. Their teachings corrupted the American public health and theology in quite a significant way.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

You still repeat I just want to argue and thats why I want just yes/no and short posts. As I said I wanted clear answers from you, because you are hiding them behind many words.

It's called being thorough. I have had enough discussion experience to know that yes and no answers are not always adequate. My words speak for themselves. What, in your expert opinion, am I hiding behind many words?

I argue with people who teach we are commanded to observe Sabbath, because its not true. I basically argue against mostly everything that comes from SDA, by a coincidence - from YEC to plant-based diet to Sabbath. Their teachings corrupted the American public health and theology in quite a significant way.

Well, I believe we are saved by grace, through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (NASB 1995).

I am not associated with the SDA in any way, other than the fact I observe the same day they do. I don't buy into the other things they teach, except for the obvious things like laws against murder, adultery, theft, and such.

 

[trophy33]

What, in your expert opinion, am I hiding behind many words?

Simple answers to simple questions. But this conversation lost its meaning (is off topic), so I will rejoin later.

 

[Fervent]

Fervent is claiming that if it was not found in the list then it is not applicable to the Gentiles.

That's not what I've said at all, as I stated the list is not a universal code of ethics or obligations. myst33's statement is much more in line with what I have said and how I understand it. The dispute was that the Gentiles had to conform to Jewish practice in order to be Christians, and the resolution was that they only had to conform to such practice in the three ways listed. Since the Sabbath was something that separated Israel from the goyim it would need to have been listed if it were to be a requirement.

 

[Aaron112]

Why dont you answer my question clearly? Yes or no would be ideal.

Yes or no without any understanding would not help at all.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

That's not what I've said at all, as I stated the list is not a universal code of ethics or obligations. myst33's statement is much more in line with what I have said and how I understand it. The dispute was that the Gentiles had to conform to Jewish practice in order to be Christians, and the resolution was that they only had to conform to such practice in the three ways listed. Since the Sabbath was something that separated Israel from the goyim it would need to have been listed if it were to be a requirement.

No, not necessarily. The Sabbath was not required for salvation after the cross. But that didn't mean it was done away with. Those Jews who put their faith in the Law were required to keep the Sabbath and they had to keep it the way the Hebrew Scriptures specified. The Gentiles were not required to keep it but they had the freedom to do so if they wished, as long as they didn't judge those who did, or did not, keep the Sabbath. The Gentiles were not forbidden to keep the Sabbath because under the new covenant they were saved by grace. Before the cross, when Jesus was alive, a man asked him what must he do to have eternal life. Jesus told him if he wanted to enter into eternal life to keep the Commandments. This verse is quoted by most Sabbath keeping churches. But under the new covenant it is not required, but it is not forbidden either. We are required by scripture not to judge one another regarding the Sabbath and that judging seems to go on a lot here.

 

[Fervent]

No, not necessarily. The Sabbath was not required for salvation after the cross. But that didn't mean it was done away with. Those Jews who put their faith in the Law were required to keep the Sabbath and they had to keep it the way the Hebrew Scriptures specified. The Gentiles were not required to keep it but they had the freedom to do so if they wished, as long as they didn't judge those who did, or did not, keep the Sabbath. The Gentiles were not forbidden to keep the Sabbath because under the new covenant they were saved by grace. Before the cross, when Jesus was alive, a man asked him what must he do to have eternal life. Jesus told him if he wanted to enter into eternal life to keep the Commandments. This verse is quoted by most Sabbath keeping churches. But under the new covenant it is not required, but it is not forbidden either. We are required by scripture not to judge one another regarding the Sabbath and that judging seems to go on a lot here.

Who said anything about anyone being forbidden to keep the Sabbath?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Who said anything about anyone being forbidden to keep the Sabbath?

Many Sunday keepers have claimed that. Usually, we Sabbath keepers are told that we are under the new covenant and the Sabbath was done away with. We have been told that if we choose to obey the Law, then we will be judged by the Law and if you have broken one of the Laws in the Hebrew Scriptures, we have broken them all. They also say if we choose to obey one one of the Laws, we shall be judged by the Law when we stand before God on Judgement Day. And since we all sin, we will go to hell for trusting the Law over our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Since I have joined this forum I have not seen anyone make this claim but it is a claim made by many Christians out there in the world. We are not to judge anyone for keeping the Sabbath and not anyone for choosing to worship on Sunday. As long as you are in Christ, and Christ in you, you are saved, no matter what day you keep.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is not required for salvation

If someone wants to keep kosher, get circumcised, and follow the laws in the old testament - excluding animal sacrifices, of course, since to do so is illegal I think - and do it all as a personal thing that has no religious significance then do it, but if the reason for doing it all is to please God which implies that not doing it is less pleasing to God or displeasing to God then it is a significant religious demand that any person who really believes it would feel compelled to evangelise others, saving them from the alleged harm that comes from not accepting circumcision, feasts and holy days, animal sacrifices, and the Law.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

If someone wants to keep kosher, get circumcised, and follow the laws in the old testament - excluding animal sacrifices, of course, since to do so is illegal I think - and do it all as a personal thing that has no religious significance then do it, but if the reason for doing it all is to please God which implies that not doing it is less pleasing to God or displeasing to God then it is a significant religious demand that any person who really believes it would feel compelled to evangelise others, saving them from the alleged harm that comes from not accepting circumcision, feasts and holy days, animal sacrifices, and the Law.

That's why many Sunday keeping Christians try so hard to convert Sabbath keepers because they feel that the Sabbath keepers are destined to hell for not trusting Christ. It has to be explained to them that keeping the Saturday Sabbath is a personal matter, that the keeper is happier (I don't know why for sure) than he is for meeting on Sunday. I have no issue with anyone who prefers Sunday over Saturday, as long as they don't condemn me for observing the Sabbath as a personal choice. Always remember Paul's words that one man esteems one day above all the other, another esteems every day alike, let every man be persuaded in his own mind. Also, Paul admonishes us to not judge one another on matters like the new moons or the sabbaths. So, if you are on this forum just to judge someone for keeping the Sabbath then you are in violation of Paul's commands. Likewise, it a Sabbath keeper judges you for observing Sunday, then he is in violation of the scripture. It is NOT, however, disrespectful of the scriptures to hold a civil (friendly) debate on the topic of keeping or not keeping the Sabbath and having verses from the Bible to back you up.

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