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I'm sticking with the text, in the context used by the writer Luke, which is older than the philosophies and theories, of later scholars.
May I suggest you read the text as it is.
Thank you for sharing that bit of information, which I already have.
I'm not going to argue with you Clare.
Clare73 said:
I said:
So, you agree that those worshipping God, must worship in spirit - that is, from the heart.
Can you please explain... Why then do you need a physical object to worship God? How is that worshipping in spirit "beyond the physical"?
How do you figure that?
They were indeed carved out material effigy.
The cross, nor the statue of Mary is not idolize, is what you are saying?
It's the Lord's cross now? Note: It is the instrument of their salvation]No. Why do you ask?
He did not.
Yes. They venerate it... give it adoration... and, the need it to pray.
It amazes me that intelligent beings do not see anything wrong with venerating an instrument of torture and death.
You are saying that you are able to decide against "kneeling before the crucifix and kissing it[, thus] paying the highest honor to our Lord's cross as the instrument of our salvation. Because the Cross is inseparable from His sacrifice, in reverencing His Cross we, in effect, adore Christ."?
I did clarify here.
Interestingly enough, the earliest manuscripts of the Gospel of John do not contain this beloved passage. Indeed, the first manuscript to contain the story is from around 400 C.E. Around 4% of Greek manuscripts that include the passage place it in locations other than John 8:1-8:11; the earliest of these is from around the ninth and tenth centuries C.E. This perplexing manuscript history fuels debates about whether the story was originally in John’s Gospel and, if so, where. The majority of scholars believe a later Christian scribe inserted the passage into John’s Gospel at John 8:1-8:11 and that the alternate locations are due to the effects of later liturgical reading in what is known as the lectionary system.
You didn't answer the question, are you against images of the cross? Know that images and likenesses are mentioned in the Old Testament, both in the two examples we discussed ordered by God and also those not ordered by God. It seems evident that the Jews did not take the commandment as an all out ban on images and likenesses. So too the early Christians, by evidence in the catacombs, also believed this was no all out ban on graven images and likenesses. There is no record of any Apostle admonishing various Christian drawings that exist from early Christianity.
Of course not. What is the purpose of every brick and every dollop of mortar used in the construction of a church building? Surely they are constituent parts of the building itself. Their purpose is certainly not to be a model of something or someone else. Thus they are completely different to statues which have no other purpose than to represent people.
Within your post are these very words in spoiler:It amazes me that intelligent beings do not see anything wrong with venerating an instrument of torture and death.
If a loved one is shot to death, and someone wanted to find the actual gun, so that they could bow before it and kiss it, or hang it on a building so they could adore or honor it, I think society would label such a person mentally insane.
However, knowing what the scriptures tell us at 1 Corinthians 4:3, 4, and 1 Thessalonians 2:11, 12, it would make sense.
They do tell us the origin of venerating the cross.
So, it's not a case of being ignorant of the origin of this tradition.The Veneration of the Cross
In the seventh century, the Church in Rome adopted the practice of Adoration [The act of worship; Worship - The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object; Ardent admiration or love; adoration] of the Cross from the Church in Jerusalem, where a fragment of wood believed to be the Lord's cross had been venerated every year on Good Friday since the fourth century. According to tradition, a part of the Holy Cross was discovered by the mother of the emperor Constantine, St. Helen, on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 326. A fifth century account describes this service in Jerusalem. A coffer of gold-plated silver containing the wood of the cross was brought forward. The bishop placed the relic on the a table in the chapel of the Crucifixion and the faithful approached it, touching brow and eyes and lips to the wood as the priest said (as every priest has done ever since): 'Behold, the Wood of the Cross.'
Adoration or veneration of an image or representation of Christ's cross does not mean that we actually adore the material image, of course, but rather what it represents. In kneeling before the crucifix and kissing it we are paying the highest honor to our Lord's cross as the instrument of our salvation. Because the Cross is inseparable from His sacrifice, in reverencing His Cross we, in effect, adore Christ. Thus we affirm: 'We adore Thee, O Christ, and we bless Thee because by Thy Holy Cross Thou has Redeemed the World.'
Whatever excuse is given to carry on the tradition, does not make it right.
It is no different from the Israelites taking the Copper Serpent and idolizing it... except the Copper Serpent was an instrument representing healing Numbers 21:9, and not death. However, Hezekiah destroyed it. 2 Kings 18:4
People have not learned from that. They read the Bible, but it does not matter. Sinning and holding hands and declaring themselves followers of Jesus is their mantra, thinking that that will work out well for them.
It's not only the cross though, which really, I do not believe was the instrument of death for Jesus, and the robbers next to him, and which the origin of its use in Christianity is not of Christ and his apostles, but it is any image used in worship, which persons bow to, and kiss in adoration - worship, pretty much.
You could say that I am against anything that is against strongholds, and arguments, and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. 2 Corinthians 10:4, 5
This also includes praying to anyone besides God, whether that be dead ancestors, or Saints in heaven.
It is mu hope that more persons will avoid those "obstacles that keeps people from knowing God". 2 Corinthians 10:5
What about you... Are you against what God disapproves?
You are saying that you are able to decide against "kneeling before the crucifix and kissing it[, thus] paying the highest honor to our Lord's cross as the instrument of our salvation. Because the Cross is inseparable from His sacrifice, in reverencing His Cross we, in effect, adore Christ."?
I did clarify here.
Are you saying you do not understand what I said there?
Interestingly enough, the earliest manuscripts of the Gospel of John do not contain this beloved passage. Indeed, the first manuscript to contain the story is from around 400 C.E. Around 4% of Greek manuscripts that include the passage place it in locations other than John 8:1-8:11; the earliest of these is from around the ninth and tenth centuries C.E. This perplexing manuscript history fuels debates about whether the story was originally in John’s Gospel and, if so, where. The majority of scholars believe a later Christian scribe inserted the passage into John’s Gospel at John 8:1-8:11 and that the alternate locations are due to the effects of later liturgical reading in what is known as the lectionary system.
Was there a point you were trying to make, by using this text?
I like the words Jesus used at Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Do you think Jesus is saying you had better make a judgment on who is true or false?
Are you sure about not being a model of something else, perhaps the heavenly temple? Perhaps a model of Ezekiel's temple?
Well, no church building I have worshipped in bears any resemblance to Ezekiel's temple, with its "most holy place," chambers for priests, 30 chambers in the outer walls, etc. The only possible link I can see is that spiritually a church (the people, not the building) may be a foretaste of the heavenly temple.
My ultimate point in asking the question about the brick and mortar was that some people believe that being inside of a Church makes them closer to God.
Yes, I agree that the bible shows us in places such as Acts 17:24 that worship is from the heart. Thank you for your gracious post. I hope I show as much grace in my posts on the forum!
You do! I can tell that you carry the Holy Spirit's message from the book of James in your heart as you formulate posts. For the record, it has taken the Holy Spirit an enormous amount of time to bring me to this place of grace in speech. I assure you that there is much shameful ignorance in many of my past posts.
No, but I did answer the question in more than one post... The one you ignored, and answered none of my questions, and the ones where I explained what the problem was twice - here, and here.
There is no spoiler where I originally posted that quote, and said...
It's the Lord's cross now? Note: It is the instrument of their salvation]
