The Firmament

[Job 33:6]

@CoreyD I just added a few examples of ancient Greeks that believed in a flat earth. But they're all prior to 600BC. But in the videos you'll also see Jewish, Egyptian and Babylonian examples, among others. It's just a fact of history that, prior to about 600BC or so, the concept of a spherical Earth just wasn't mainstream or had not yet been discovered.

People simply didn't know. They didn't really have a way of knowing. Similar to heliocentrism with Galileo, some things just have to be discovered.

And once people reach this understanding, they can then begin to ask more complicated questions. Such as, if the ancient Israelites did not know that the earth was a sphere, would Moses have known?

Would God have needed to inform Moses of the spherical shape of the earth before inspiring Moses in his authorship of the Pentateuch? Or, could God accommodate his audience? Teaching his people theological truths, while simultaneously accommodating their perspective of the cosmos, at that time in history? And these are important questions in Biblical studies, and they deserve a lot of time and thought.

 

[CoreyD]

What was it then ? Where is God's throne ?

Ezekiel 1

1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the River Chebar, that the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.​

This is a vision Ezekiel is seeing. As if transported to heaven, Ezekiel sees...

You can read the Ezekiel 1:1-28, to see that this is not heaven, but it is carried on wheels driven by the four spirits beneath the expanse.
It obviously represents something, of which most people would have various ideas.

 

[Apple Sky]

Ezekiel 1

1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the River Chebar, that the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.​

This is a vision Ezekiel is seeing. As if transported to heaven, Ezekiel sees...

You can read the Ezekiel 1:1-28, to see that this is not heaven, but it is carried on wheels driven by the four spirits beneath the expanse.
It obviously represents something, of which most people would have various ideas.

But he does describe God's throne to the letter.

 

[CoreyD]

Yea we don't have to go back that far.

The old testament is written in Hebrew. That's its original language in which it was written. And Hebrew has not always existed. So we can start there by looking at when Hebrew was used as a language and when the ancient Israelites escaped from Egypt. As a question of history.

And from what I've read, this usually puts people at a date ranging from about 1,500BC to 1,000BC, and somewhere in this window of time. We could go back further if we wanted to, but this is sufficient for the discussion.

We cannot start here, but have to go back to the beginning.
Here is why. Job lived before Moses, and Job had information about the universe, animal life, the seas, ...practically everything God created.
God communicated with persons living prior to the written record.

This is where it gets complicated. Because, some might say that, well, that same creation order is in Egyptian texts like the Memphite Theology. You say that scripture describes things that no man can know, but what happens when Egyptians described the waters above and the wind over the face of the deep and he primordial mound and light on the first day etc. just as Genesis does? Only Egyptian texts turned out to be thousands of years older than the Bible?

What some may think is complicated, is very simple.
One only has to make sure they have not forgotten a few facts.

The fact is, God had people in the beginning, whom God communicated with, and before the written record, the knowledge God conveyed, was passed down through word of mouth.
This is the reason every living being prior to the atheistic era, had a belief in God, or gods.

The gods concept came about through those that left God, and thus religion - a form of worship, was born.
People formed their own ways of worship, and the gods they would worship. From these, came the warped and twisted ideas, that continued right down to Rome... and even today.

The mistake often made by people, is to forget that Shem, Ham, and Japheth, lived before Egypt was born.
It was out of the loins of one of these three, that Egyptians came. I haven't traced their lineage, so I can't tell you which, but this is how it works.

Genesis 11:1-31, is therefore a good starting point for when the true knowledge, while remaining with Shem's descendants, was joined by multiple ideas that came out of religions - false religious ideas... and these spread into all the earth.
So, here we are. Click to magnify.

And usually this is when people get uncomfortable or agitated. And they start asking if that means that the old testament was borrowed from pagan texts and...Noah was copied from the Mesopotamian story with utnapishni and all that stuff.

But there is a key difference between Christians that support an ancient near eastern context of scripture and believe that it originated from a common cultural context and historical context of other narratives, such as Mesopotamian and Egyptian creation narratives,

Versus people who attack the Bible and claim that the Bible was just copied off of other narratives.

And there is also the position of viewing parts of scripture as theological polemic as well, or basically a theological correction and rebuke of pagan narratives of that time in history.

And I'd be happy to give more specific examples of these.

Yes, I have seen this mistake repeated over and over again.
People do not consider how history was passed down orally, and because something isn't written, that does not mean it cannot be borrowed, distorted, adjusted, and then recorded before the actual account is recorded.

Scholars make the same mistake, when they claim that the Biblical account was borrowed, from myths prior to its writing... They, not realizing that the myths were actually based on (but adulterated) the Biblical account, which was recorded later.

And yes we have plenty of evidences that ancient peoples were unaware of the spherical shape of the earth. I gave an example earlier of the Babylonian map of the world in which the world terminated at the edge of the bitter River, surrounded by cosmic mountains. There was no perception of sphericity of the earth back then. Another example would be things like the etchings of the cosmos in Egyptian sarcophagus' such as that of wershnepher in which the sun god ra would go into the underworld, or the dust each day. Or you have things like the unfinished kuduru stone which depicts 3-tiered cosmology with the underworld resting atop the deep.

This video provides a good example of what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure if you saw my response to that.
The map is interpreted in various ways, and obviously misinterpreted.
Perhaps you need a couple other pieces of evidence. It's always good to have more than one piece of evidence to be sure that the interpretation is not biased.

Here is a good video that summarizes some perspectives on ancient cosmology, including a flat earth, in history.

There were lots of people who argued for ancient cosmology in history, including a flat earth.

The most ancient of artifacts we have, among them, they all depict an earth that is flat. Such as this:

Or the Egyptian sarcophagus of wershnepher. It just has a flat land with the circuit of the sun that goes up and then back down into the underworld.

The World According to (the Other) Homer

The semi-mythical Greek is not only the father of the epic poem, but also of geography

bigthink.com

The Physical World of Homer | Encyclopedia.com

The Physical World of HomerSources Source for information on The Physical World of Homer: World Eras dictionary.

www.encyclopedia.com

"Pillars of Herakles . Greeks in the eighth century (and perhaps even earlier) conceived the earth to be a flat disk, on which the landmass of Europe, Asia, and Africa was surrounded by a vast river called Ocean. Thus, the inhabited earth was thought to be an “island” encircled by water. In the eighth century b.c.e. Homer and Hesiod used this image to good effect in their poetry; early Greek maps also showed this characterization. Although the water encircling the inhabited world was described as a “river,” the ancient poets do not say what the boundary of Ocean was: early Ocean just stretches away into the measureless distance."

Anaximander | COSMOS

astronomy.swin.edu.au

"Anaximander described the Earth as rounded and circular with two plane surfaces (not necessarily a flat disk, more like a cylinder or ‘stone pillar’), which was suspended freely in space. It stays where it is because it is equidistant from everything else in the Universe. "

Thales of Miletus - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

"Thales thought the Earth must be a flat disk or mound of land and dirt which is floating in an expanse of water.[70] Heraclitus Homericus states that Thales drew his conclusion from seeing moist substance turn into air, slime and earth. It seems likely that Thales viewed the land as coming from the water on which it floated and the oceans that surround it, perhaps inspired by observing silt deposits.[71]

He thought the stars were balls of dirt on fire.[72] He seemed to correctly gather that the moon reflects the Sun's light.[73] A crater on the Moon is named in his honor."

Does any of these sources predate the Tower of Babel?

 

[CoreyD]

But he does describe God's throne to the letter.

Really? When did you see it?
Were you transported to heaven?

A vision is not giving an actual picture of what is in the vision.
It's a representation. God does not sit on a physical throne. Isaiah 66:1

All of the things Ezekiel saw, are a representation.
There are no wheels with eyes all around, either on earth, or in heaven.

Surely, you are not trying to say, there is an expanse sitting on wheels, with a throne above, and a rainbow, and creatures with four faces, and straight legs, and the soles of their feet were like the soles of calves’ feet, beneath the expanse, moving the wheels. Are you?

 

[Job 33:6]

We cannot start here, but have to go back to the beginning.
Here is why. Job lived before Moses, and Job had information about the universe, animal life, the seas, ...practically everything God created.
God communicated with persons living prior to the written record.

I'm fine with this. So Job was also written in Hebrew. And the oldest records of any Hebrew we have, date back to about 1200 BC.

 

[CoreyD]

I'm fine with this. So Job was also written in Hebrew. And the oldest records of any Hebrew we have, date back to about 1200 BC.

What God passes on to his children orally, is older than 1200 BC.
What God's children passed on orally, is older than 1200 BC.
Shem, Ham, and Japheth were older than 1200 BC.

An oral record is just as important, and tangible as a written record.
Ignoring that fact is to make the same mistake scholars have.

 

[Apple Sky]

Really? When did you see it?
Were you transported to heaven?

A vision is not giving an actual picture of what is in the vision.
It's a representation. God does not sit on a physical throne. Isaiah 66:1

All of the things Ezekiel saw, are a representation.
There are no wheels with eyes all around, either on earth, or in heaven.

Surely, you are not trying to say, there is an expanse sitting on wheels, with a throne above, and a rainbow, and creatures with four faces, and straight legs, and the soles of their feet were like the soles of calves’ feet, beneath the expanse, moving the wheels. Are you?

And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: Ezekiel 1:26

King James Bible
And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Isaiah 54:11​

"You afflicted, tossed with storms, and not comforted, behold, I will set your stones in beautiful colors, and lay your foundations with sapphires

The Ten Commandments Were Written on Sapphire Tablets From God’s Throne

The majority of Christians think of the Ten Commandments as being inscribed on tablets of grey stone. However, rabbinical Judaism as found in the Talmud and Mishnah teaches that the tablets of the …

appleeye.org

Moses took the saphire tablets from the throne floor of God.

 

[CoreyD]

And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: Ezekiel 1:26

King James Bible
And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Exodus 24:11 They saw a vision.

Isaiah 54:11​

"You afflicted, tossed with storms, and not comforted, behold, I will set your stones in beautiful colors, and lay your foundations with sapphires

That's a beautiful foundation.
What does the foundation of the city represent?
Revelation 21:9-21

The Ten Commandments Were Written on Sapphire Tablets From God’s Throne

The majority of Christians think of the Ten Commandments as being inscribed on tablets of grey stone. However, rabbinical Judaism as found in the Talmud and Mishnah teaches that the tablets of the …

appleeye.org

Moses took the saphire tablets from the throne floor of God.

The floor of God? Earth?
This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool. Isaiah 66:1
Do you accept what the Lord says?

If so, then...

 

[Job 33:6]

The gods concept came about through those that left God, and thus religion - a form of worship, was born.
People formed their own ways of worship, and the gods they would worship. From these, came the warped and twisted ideas, that continued right down to Rome... and even today.

Pagan religions existed before God chose the Israelites as His chosen people. There is not evidence of God inspiring people in times before pagans. At least not in terms of biblical authorship.

The mistake often made by people, is to forget that Shem, Ham, and Japheth, lived before Egypt was born.
It was out of the loins of one of these three, that Egyptians came. I haven't traced their lineage, so I can't tell you which, but this is how it works.

I agree with this..however, the author of Genesis in which these figures were described, was not written until much later, after the existence of Egypt. Which is significant as well. Ancient Egypt existed before 4000BC for example.

Genesis 11:1-31, is therefore a good starting point for when the true knowledge, while remaining with Shem's descendants, was joined by multiple ideas that came out of religions - false religious ideas... and these spread into all the earth.
So, here we are. Click to magnify.

Yes, I have seen this mistake repeated over and over again.
People do not consider how history was passed down orally, and because something isn't written, that does not mean it cannot be borrowed, distorted, adjusted, and then recorded before the actual account is recorded.

This is true. Though there is not actually any evidence of the Hebrew Bible or it's oral traditions, prior to pagan times, prior to pagan texts etc.

Scholars make the same mistake, when they claim that the Biblical account was borrowed, from myths prior to its writing... They, not realizing that the myths were actually based on (but adulterated) the Biblical account, which was recorded later.

Same as above.

I'm not sure if you saw my response to that.
The map is interpreted in various ways, and obviously misinterpreted.

The cosmic mountains bordering the bitter River is beyond the known world. There is no perception of sphericity of the earth at this time in history in any writing or any artifacts. Only a perception of a flat earth or just a flat area in which the limits are simply unknown or mysterious. Same with things like the unfinished kuduru stone or the etchings of the sarcophagus of wershnepher. They just don't present any perception of a spherical Earth. Only of flat land.

Basically, there is more of an onus on you to argue that they knew of a spherical Earth (which there is no evidence for this) moreso than me, simply pointing out that all evidence we have simply depicts a lack of that awareness or an absence of that concept.

Perhaps you need a couple other pieces of evidence. It's always good to have more than one piece of evidence to be sure that the interpretation is not biased.


Does any of these sources predate the Tower of Babel?

I'm not sure. But I will say that, I think it's more important to consider the date of the authorship of Genesis, just as much as the date of the events being described themselves.

For example, the name Adam, in Hebrew it means "human". It's a Hebrew term.

And so, even though the story takes place before the age of Moses, we still have the influence of Moses on the text, such as this example with the text being in the Hebrew language.

What God passes on to his children orally, is older than 1200 BC.
What God's children passed on orally, is older than 1200 BC.
Shem, Ham, and Japheth were older than 1200 BC.

Sure. But the author still exists in that window of time.

An oral record is just as important, and tangible as a written record.
Ignoring that fact is to make the same mistake scholars have.

You still have to address the cultural context of the author of the text.

But even still, going further back in time isn't going to make evidence for the perception of a spherical Earth come about, there is no evidence for people being aware of a spherical Earth that far back in time.

 

[Job 33:6]

What God passes on to his children orally, is older than 1200 BC.
What God's children passed on orally, is older than 1200 BC.
Shem, Ham, and Japheth were older than 1200 BC.

An oral record is just as important, and tangible as a written record.
Ignoring that fact is to make the same mistake scholars have.

In terms of things like cosmology, there is no proto-bible or Adamic Bible or any evidence of an oral tradition that describes a spherical Earth in the past or something like that.

There is only evidence of an ancient Near Eastern cosmology that appears in the biblical text after other people in history had already written of such things.

There's a point in history, somewhere around 600 BC that once you go back in time before that., you'll never find any writing of anyone suggesting that the Earth is a sphere, only many artifacts and documents that suggest a lack of awareness of the sphericity of the earth, or that of simply assume a flat Earth.

And there is no evidence of a spherical Earth tradition, oral or otherwise, before then.

In fact, some of the instances I gave above are from the 7th and 8th century BC and they clearly describe a flat Earth. That's just how it was in ancient Greece.

 

[Job 33:6]

Exodus 24:11 They saw a vision.


That's a beautiful foundation.
What does the foundation of the city represent?
Revelation 21:9-21


The floor of God? Earth?
This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool. Isaiah 66:1
Do you accept what the Lord says?

If so, then...

Regarding Exodus, I believe he describing the passage about the platform beneath God's feet having an appearance of pavement of sapphire stone or lapiz lazuli.

This language is actually the same language used in extrabiblical texts, also for the firmament.

 

[Job 33:6]

Exodus 24:10 NIV
[10] and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky.

The middle heaven is paved with opaque blue lapis lazuli, hiding the Igigi gods from view, and also hiding the highest heaven of Anu, which for some reason is paved with a red kind of stone. The lowest heaven is of “jasper”, whose colour and opacity apparently vary (in unknown manner) to allow a view of the blue sky.

Ancient Cosmic Geography – the actual modern view #2 | The Hump of the Camel

potiphar.jongarvey.co.uk

Zach Silvia
Bryn Mawr College
Abstract: Irresistible Night, Ageless Dark: The Nocturnal in Image, Text, and Material Culture
Title: Bel-Marduk’s Celestial Dais: The Importance of Lapis Lazuli in Mesopotamian Cosmic
Order
Lapis lazuli is one of the most widely recognized semiprecious stones in the archaeology of Mesopotamia in the Bronze and Iron Ages. This rare blue stone transported from a single ancient source in northeast Afghanistan is often regarded by scholars as a luxury grave good found in the graves of Mesopotamia’s elites and royal family members. However, the symbolic
significance of lapis lazuli has rarely been investigated. This paper explores textual attestations for lapis lazuli written in Sumerian and Akkadian (Akk.: uqnu; Sum.: NA.ZA.GIN) to suggest that the stone was prized for its supreme relationship with the governing deities of Mesopotamian religion, and importantly, as a constituent element in Mesopotamia’s cosmology of a vertically ordered universe within which these same gods reside. Lapis lazuli is presented as the constituent material of the celestial night sky - the domain of ancient Babylon’s supreme deity Bel-Marduk and the primordial source of universal knowledge. It is argued that lapis lazuli derived its symbolic power from the cosmos and was prized and imported on account of its divine properties.

Bel-Marduk's Celestial Dais: Lapis Lazuli and the Materiality of Mesopotamian Cosmic Order

Lapis lazuli is one of the most widely recognized stones in the archaeology of Mesopotamia from the early Bronze Age through Iron Age. This rare blue stone from a single source in northeast Afghanistan is often recognized by scholars as a luxury item

www.academia.edu

@CoreyD

Once the cultural context is identified, the Bible becomes much more clear on these matters.

 

[Apple Sky]

Exodus 24:10 NIV
[10] and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky.

The middle heaven is paved with opaque blue lapis lazuli, hiding the Igigi gods from view, and also hiding the highest heaven of Anu, which for some reason is paved with a red kind of stone. The lowest heaven is of “jasper”, whose colour and opacity apparently vary (in unknown manner) to allow a view of the blue sky.

Ancient Cosmic Geography – the actual modern view #2 | The Hump of the Camel

potiphar.jongarvey.co.uk

Zach Silvia
Bryn Mawr College
Abstract: Irresistible Night, Ageless Dark: The Nocturnal in Image, Text, and Material Culture
Title: Bel-Marduk’s Celestial Dais: The Importance of Lapis Lazuli in Mesopotamian Cosmic
Order
Lapis lazuli is one of the most widely recognized semiprecious stones in the archaeology of Mesopotamia in the Bronze and Iron Ages. This rare blue stone transported from a single ancient source in northeast Afghanistan is often regarded by scholars as a luxury grave good found in the graves of Mesopotamia’s elites and royal family members. However, the symbolic
significance of lapis lazuli has rarely been investigated. This paper explores textual attestations for lapis lazuli written in Sumerian and Akkadian (Akk.: uqnu; Sum.: NA.ZA.GIN) to suggest that the stone was prized for its supreme relationship with the governing deities of Mesopotamian religion, and importantly, as a constituent element in Mesopotamia’s cosmology of a vertically ordered universe within which these same gods reside. Lapis lazuli is presented as the constituent material of the celestial night sky - the domain of ancient Babylon’s supreme deity Bel-Marduk and the primordial source of universal knowledge. It is argued that lapis lazuli derived its symbolic power from the cosmos and was prized and imported on account of its divine properties.

Bel-Marduk's Celestial Dais: Lapis Lazuli and the Materiality of Mesopotamian Cosmic Order

Lapis lazuli is one of the most widely recognized stones in the archaeology of Mesopotamia from the early Bronze Age through Iron Age. This rare blue stone from a single source in northeast Afghanistan is often recognized by scholars as a luxury item

www.academia.edu

@CoreyD

Once the cultural context is identified, the Bible becomes much more clear on these matters.

Thank you for this post, I found it very interesting

 

[Job 33:6]

Thank you for this post, I found it very interesting

Part of the reason that we know of these ancient cosmological models is that other people outside of the Bible, talked about them:

It's not that the ancient Egyptians stole Adam's Bible. Or that the Babylonians colluded with Cain, stole God's secrets, and wrote their pagan version of Genesis.

Um no. It's just an ancient cosmology that people shared because they hadn't yet invented telescopes and rocket ships.

There isn't much reason to overcomplicate what is quite simple of an observation.

There is no evidence of the Egyptians having stolen Adam's Bible or the Babylonians colluding with Cain to rip off the Bible. Nor is there evidence that Egyptians and Babylonians received divine revelation to write their creation texts that share the same concepts as Genesis.

The earth, of course, isn't flat with a solid sky. Nor is it geocentric and on pillars. The Old Testament is simply an ancient text. And thus says ancient things. And that's ok.

Ancient people are allowed to talk about ancient things. And that includes, the inspired authors of the old testament.

 

[CoreyD]

Pagan religions existed before God chose the Israelites as His chosen people.

Why are you referring to when God chose the Israelites as His chosen people?

There is not evidence of God inspiring people in times before pagans. At least not in terms of biblical authorship.

What do you mean by that... inspiring to write, or inspiring to teach?
If you are referring to the former, may I ask why you are stuck on writing, and dismissing teaching?
The Bible says, this:
Genesis 5:22-24

22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Jude 1:14

It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,

Genesis 6:9

These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.

2 Peter 2:5

and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

What is recorded in the Bible, is evidence of God communicating with, and inspiring men ages before he chose Israel as a people... and long before any Pharaoh existed.
Are you contending this?

I agree with this..however, the author of Genesis in which these figures were described, was not written until much later, after the existence of Egypt. Which is significant as well. Ancient Egypt existed before 4000BC for example.

Are you therefore ignoring knowledge given and passed on orally?
Is that what you are saying?

This is true. Though there is not actually any evidence of the Hebrew Bible or it's oral traditions, prior to pagan times, prior to pagan texts etc.

So, you are contending the scriptures.
Therefore, there is no history, and all that recorded it, are making up stories of things that never passed.
In fact, they made up the characters as well.
Is that true?

Same as above.

The cosmic mountains bordering the bitter River is beyond the known world. There is no perception of sphericity of the earth at this time in history in any writing or any artifacts. Only a perception of a flat earth or just a flat area in which the limits are simply unknown or mysterious. Same with things like the unfinished kuduru stone or the etchings of the sarcophagus of wershnepher. They just don't present any perception of a spherical Earth. Only of flat land.

Basically, there is more of an onus on you to argue that they knew of a spherical Earth (which there is no evidence for this) moreso than me, simply pointing out that all evidence we have simply depicts a lack of that awareness or an absence of that concept.

The only maps that aren't flat, would be 3d models.

Ever since its discovery there has been controversy on its general interpretation and specific features.
Delnero, Paul. "A Land with No Borders: A New Interpretation of the Babylonian “Map of the World”." Journal of Ancient Near Eastern History 4.1-2 (2017): 19-37

All of the interpretations of the Map of the World that have been proposed to date can be grouped according to how they attempt to answer the following questions:​

(1) What does the inner circle of the map on the obverse depict?​

(2) What do the triangular areas outside the ring of water represent, and what is their relation to what is depicted in the inner circle of the map?​

(3) What does the text on the obverse describe, and how does the text relate to the map and the text on the reverse of the tablet?​

(4) What does the text on the reverse mean and how does it relate to the map and text on the obverse?​

(5) And lastly: What is the significance of the map and accompanying texts as a whole?​

To my knowledge, the first scholar to propose that the map had a cosmolo- gical and mythological dimension was Bruno Meissner, in a short section about the map that appeared in the second volume of his book Babylonien und Assyrien only three years after Weidner’s article (Meissner 1925: 374–79). Situating the map in the context of other visual depictions of geographic space in Mesopotamia, like the Kassite map of Nippur, Meissner (1925: 375–75) argued that the map was intended as a real map of the world (“Weltkarte”) that was more or less accurate in the center, but much less so in the mythological regions outside it, as a result of the strong influence of theology on the Babylonian conceptions of geography:​

Wenn wir zum Schlusse noch einen Blick auf die geographischen Kenntnisse der Babylonier und Assyrer werfen, so bemerken wir, dass auch diese Wissenschaft wie alle anderen im Zweistromlande letzten Endes von der Theologie ausging.​

​

Meissner may also have been the first to connect the Map of the World with Herodotus’s description of maps with a similar appearance:​

I am amused when I see that not one of all the people who have drawn maps of the world has set it out sensibly. They show Ocean as a river flowing around the outside of the earth, which is as circular as if it had been drawn with a pair of compasses, and they make Asia and Europe the same size.​

​

At no point in his description of the map, however, does Meissner claim that the city of Babylon is depicted in the center of it, or make a sharp distinction between the real and mythological regions of the map, seeing the map instead as a typical product of a scientific practice that could not free itself from the mythological conceptions pervading it.​

​

The cosmological dimension of the map began to receive more serious attention a few years later in a series of studies by Eckhard Unger (1929: 701; 1931: 254–58; and 1937). Most notably, in an article entitled “From the Cosmos Picture to the World Map”, which appeared in Imago Mundi in 1937, Unger (1937: 1) claimed that Babylon was depicted in the center of the map as “the ‘hub’ of the universe”, and correctly identified most of the cities and regions around it. Unger (1937: 2) also interpreted the ring of water as an “Earthly Ocean” and the nagû as islands at the end of the ocean, seeing in them the possible origin of the tradition about the lost island of Atlantis:​

It is just possible that e. g. the legend of Atlantis might be explained as a fantastically exaggerated reminiscence of the Babylonian cosmos with its seven islands, especially as this legend has a long tradition behind it (Solon).​

​

Unger’s (1937: 3) most radical claim, however, was that the islands formed a bridge to the “heavenly ocean”, which he argued was described in the composi- tion on the obverse of the tablet, interpreting the animals mentioned in this text as Zodiacal animal constellations, identified as “vanished gods” near the begin- ning of the text. Having connected the earthly areas of the map with the heavens, he concluded that the map was not just a map of the world, but a map of the entire cosmos. While this interpretation of the map has not withstood the test of time, Unger’s claim that Babylon is shown in the center, as well as his separation of the map into real and mythological components, have since become commonplace.​

​

Turning to more recent treatments of the map...​

Let's not forget Job 33:6's most accurate interpretation:
Only a perception of a flat earth or just a flat area in which the limits are simply unknown or mysterious. Same with things like the unfinished kuduru stone or the etchings of the sarcophagus of wershnepher. They just don't present any perception of a spherical Earth. Only of flat land.

Let's log that in the journals. ...and don't forget, she also wants someone to step up and provide proof that it is wrong.
Do you think she's just trying to be funny?

I'm not sure. But I will say that, I think it's more important to consider the date of the authorship of Genesis, just as much as the date of the events being described themselves.

Are you sure you are not saying dismiss all together "the date of the events being described", and let's focus on the authorship, since that works fine for my argument?
It looks that way to me.

For example, the name Adam, in Hebrew it means "human". It's a Hebrew term.

And so, even though the story takes place before the age of Moses, we still have the influence of Moses on the text, such as this example with the text being in the Hebrew language.

??? Where did you get that?
Adam means mankind, - Adam: Adam, man, mankind - Derived from אָדַם (adam), meaning "to be red," possibly referring to the ruddy color of human skin or the red earth from which Adam was formed.

How does a man recording history. in a language known to him, affect history? ???

Sure. But the author still exists in that window of time.

Who is the Bible's author?
God is the Bible's author. How do you answer that question?

You still have to address the cultural context of the author of the text.

I did. It's authored from a source that knows what no man knows, and tells of things both in the past, and the present.
I quoted two scriptures that highlighted this fact 2 Peter 1:21, and 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

But even still, going further back in time isn't going to make evidence for the perception of a spherical Earth come about, there is no evidence for people being aware of a spherical Earth that far back in time.

The evidence is there, but the acceptance is not, based on interpretations based on beliefs.

 

[CoreyD]

In terms of things like cosmology, there is no proto-bible or Adamic Bible or any evidence of an oral tradition that describes a spherical Earth in the past or something like that.

There is only evidence of an ancient Near Eastern cosmology that appears in the biblical text after other people in history had already written of such things.

There's a point in history, somewhere around 600 BC that once you go back in time before that., you'll never find any writing of anyone suggesting that the Earth is a sphere, only many artifacts and documents that suggest a lack of awareness of the sphericity of the earth, or that of simply assume a flat Earth.

And there is no evidence of a spherical Earth tradition, oral or otherwise, before then.

In fact, some of the instances I gave above are from the 7th and 8th century BC and they clearly describe a flat Earth. That's just how it was in ancient Greece.

Regarding Exodus, I believe he describing the passage about the platform beneath God's feet having an appearance of pavement of sapphire stone or lapiz lazuli.

This language is actually the same language used in extrabiblical texts, also for the firmament.

Exodus 24:10 NIV
[10] and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky.

The middle heaven is paved with opaque blue lapis lazuli, hiding the Igigi gods from view, and also hiding the highest heaven of Anu, which for some reason is paved with a red kind of stone. The lowest heaven is of “jasper”, whose colour and opacity apparently vary (in unknown manner) to allow a view of the blue sky.

Ancient Cosmic Geography – the actual modern view #2 | The Hump of the Camel

potiphar.jongarvey.co.uk

Zach Silvia
Bryn Mawr College
Abstract: Irresistible Night, Ageless Dark: The Nocturnal in Image, Text, and Material Culture
Title: Bel-Marduk’s Celestial Dais: The Importance of Lapis Lazuli in Mesopotamian Cosmic
Order
Lapis lazuli is one of the most widely recognized semiprecious stones in the archaeology of Mesopotamia in the Bronze and Iron Ages. This rare blue stone transported from a single ancient source in northeast Afghanistan is often regarded by scholars as a luxury grave good found in the graves of Mesopotamia’s elites and royal family members. However, the symbolic
significance of lapis lazuli has rarely been investigated. This paper explores textual attestations for lapis lazuli written in Sumerian and Akkadian (Akk.: uqnu; Sum.: NA.ZA.GIN) to suggest that the stone was prized for its supreme relationship with the governing deities of Mesopotamian religion, and importantly, as a constituent element in Mesopotamia’s cosmology of a vertically ordered universe within which these same gods reside. Lapis lazuli is presented as the constituent material of the celestial night sky - the domain of ancient Babylon’s supreme deity Bel-Marduk and the primordial source of universal knowledge. It is argued that lapis lazuli derived its symbolic power from the cosmos and was prized and imported on account of its divine properties.

Bel-Marduk's Celestial Dais: Lapis Lazuli and the Materiality of Mesopotamian Cosmic Order

Lapis lazuli is one of the most widely recognized stones in the archaeology of Mesopotamia from the early Bronze Age through Iron Age. This rare blue stone from a single source in northeast Afghanistan is often recognized by scholars as a luxury item

www.academia.edu

@CoreyD

Once the cultural context is identified, the Bible becomes much more clear on these matters.

Yes, the cultural context according to the interpretations, based on beliefs.
That's where we started.

 

[Aaron112]

Known for thousands of years: the victor rewrites history. (perhaps almost always?)

How does a man recording history. in a language known to him, affect history?

 

[CoreyD]

Part of the reason that we know of these ancient cosmological models is that other people outside of the Bible, talked about them:

It's not that the ancient Egyptians stole Adam's Bible. Or that the Babylonians colluded with Cain, stole God's secrets, and wrote their pagan version of Genesis.

Um no. It's just an ancient cosmology that people shared because they hadn't yet invented telescopes and rocket ships.

There isn't much reason to overcomplicate what is quite simple of an observation.

There is no evidence of the Egyptians having stolen Adam's Bible or the Babylonians colluding with Cain to rip off the Bible. Nor is there evidence that Egyptians and Babylonians received divine revelation to write their creation texts that share the same concepts as Genesis.

The earth, of course, isn't flat with a solid sky. Nor is it geocentric and on pillars. The Old Testament is simply an ancient text. And thus says ancient things. And that's ok.

Ancient people are allowed to talk about ancient things. And that includes, the inspired authors of the old testament.

Why are you talking about Egyptians stealing?
What is the origin of Egyptians?

Answer:
Ezekiel 29:13, 14
13 ‘Yet, thus says the Lord God: “At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were scattered. 14 I will bring back the captives of Egypt and cause them to return to the land of Pathros, to the land of their origin, and there they shall be a lowly kingdom.

Genesis 10:13-14
13 Mizraim begot Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, 14 Pathrusim, and Casluhim (from whom came the Philistines and Caphtorim).

Genesis 10:6 The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan.

Now that we know, I have an idea... Since you "think it's more important to consider the date of the authorship of Genesis" rather than the events themselves, let's erase this history.
What do we have? No Egyptians.

You see... the Egyptians did not steal anything.
The generations of Cush's descendants, who deviated from true worship, over time, developed concepts and ideas, from the demons, through their false worship, and worship of these gods, and just as their chief god - Satan lies and twists the truth, misleading the hearers, the truth about the earth, which God gave his people, was lost to the pagans... including the tribe of in the land ot Pathros, who became Egyptians.

See how important the Bible is, in tracing the history.
We don't need videos from people who believe they know what they are talking about.
Their interpretations are as you described... based on their beliefs.

 

[CoreyD]

Known for thousands of years: the victor rewrites history. (perhaps almost always?)

Yes, but not a man that is candid in telling the world how he was leading God's people, and he got so annoyed with the people, that he struck the rock, God told him to speak to, and for that reason, God barred him from entering the promised land, and when he pleaded with God, to let him into the promised land, God told him, "That's it. You are not entering, and that is final. Don't mention this to me again."

Most men would not record that, but say something like... "I spoke to the rock, and water gushed out, and the people brought me gifts, so much so that I had to restrain them."
Most men.