Also, if you check the Hebrew on Genesis 1:20, and I can help you to do this if you would like, but you'll notice that it says that birds fly across the face or in front of the face of the firmament of the sky. Not "in" or inside it. But it doesn't matter. Birds could still fly within a balloon.
Genesis 1:20 NRSV
[20] And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.”
So it doesn't really matter how you translate it, it can work a few different ways with the text.
Like you could imagine a bird flying inside a balloon with the edges of the balloon holding back the waters that were parted.
If you really believe you can help me, why not start with firmament, and then the Hebrew word al:.
However, we went past
this post, as well as
this post, which both contained this information:
They are not in the Bible,
"From the Vulgate firmamentum, which is used as the translation" "of the Hebrew raki'a.
This word means simply "expansion." It" denotes the space or expanse like an arch appearing immediately above us.
They who rendered raki'a by firmamentum regarded it as a solid body. The language of Scripture is not scientific but "popular, and hence we read of the sun rising and setting, and" also here the use of this particular word. It is plain that it was used to denote solidity as well as expansion. It formed a division between the waters above and the waters below (
Gen. 1:7). The raki'a supported the upper reservoir (
Ps. 148:4). It "was the support also of the heavenly bodies (
Gen. 1:14), and is" "spoken of as having "windows" and "doors" (
Gen. 7:11; Isa." 24:18;
Mal. 3:10) through which the rain and snow might descend.
However, I only recal getting
an argument. Nothing on the Hebrew.
So, what help do you think you can give on Hebrew?
It's not what I say. It's what the Bible says:
Daniel 4:20 NRSV
[20] The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
You're still thinking of the Bible as if it is a 21st century science textbook, rather than thinking of it through the lens of an ancient near East context and cosmology.
What... are you really interpreting "the end of the whole earth" to mean what?
Your answer will help me see what you are trying to describe, because when you say you believe the earth is a sphere, but yet you have a flat earth concept, I get this impression:
Only, the bottom half is more rounded.
Is that your vision?
In any case, that is your interpretation, It's not the Bible.
Did you know...
the ends of the earth
noun phrase
: the most remote places in the world - used figuratively to suggest no limit to an effort
He would go to the ends of the earth to please her.
We will search the ends of the earth if we have to.
Yes, as you admitted, and I will keep reminding you, you interpret the text, based on your beliefs, and therefore,you come to conclusions that are really, your own ideas.
Daniel is not in any way describing the features of the earth.
Let's see what your source says about katachthonios:
Definition: Under the earth, subterranean
Meaning: under the earth, subterranean, infernal.
Word Origin: From the Greek preposition "κατά" (kata, meaning "down") and "χθών" (chthōn, meaning "earth" or "ground").
Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: While there is no direct Hebrew equivalent for "katachthonios," the concept of the underworld or Sheol is often represented by the Hebrew word "שְׁאוֹל" (Sheol, Strong's H7585), which refers to the abode of the dead.
Ah yes, thank you!
Um... J. The quote below is not to be taken as a fact. It's a commentary. Hence, a stated view, or opinion.
While there is no direct Hebrew equivalent for "katachthonios," the concept of the underworld or Sheol is often represented by the Hebrew word "שְׁאוֹל" (Sheol, Strong's H7585), which refers to the abode of the dead.
I understand why you are happy with it though.
However, please see
Sheol, and
underworld, again, if you have forgotten.
So, do you disagree that according to Jesus, and the apostle Paul, those in the earth, will be raised up, and they will bend their knees to the king?
And yes, the earth being revealed in the midst of the waters is precisely an aspect of what I am describing.
I'm not following you.
You said this before, but what does this have to do with the passages of scripture, in Genesis 1:1-10?
For someone who denies the existence of an underworld in the old testament, you seem to keep sharing resources that reference just that.
I don't mind the commentaries in the sources I use.
One need to be able to tell the difference between a comment, and a definition.
If they cannot do that, then I will point it out to them, and use a reference that gives the facts about the concept - which Wikipedia does.
If the person wants to believe the concepts, that are based on interpretation, that's okay.
In your case, I can thoroughly understand why, since you have admitted that your interpretations are based on your beliefs.
If a person is willing to admit that, it's not surprising, they are willing to take various interpretations as facts.
My words?
What are my words?
Let's see what else you've said...
Sure. I don't mind either way.
I would say that most old testament scholars acknowledge an underworld in the old testament. I don't know what scholars you read, but I have a long list of scholars that I can share that have writings on the topic of Israelite cosmology, including texts on the underworld sheol.
I must have missed it.
Where do you find the Hebrews concept of an underworld, in
this list?
Spirits under the earth where sheol is hungry for men, where God's anger burns and where spirits of the rephaim are waiting to greet newcomers, that sounds like an underworld to me.
Samuel's spirit being brought up from under the earth. It's not like his spirit came out of the sky or out of the ocean or something. He came from "down there" where spirits are.
That's all it is. It's not like there is a castle down there or anything like that. It's just a place under the earth where spirits dwell.
But I'm ok moving on from this. Ill keep an eye out if you decide to continue.
You compelled me. So here is
a thread for you, if you are interested.
Ive states that indeed, it is figurative language. You've shared the very same verse, and you're asking me if it's not figurative?
This is often translated as "dome" or "expanse.
It's basically like a bubble. Or a tent or umbrella that holds up the waters above.
Or a balloon is a decent analogy.
If you could imagine camping, and you open up a tent, like an upside down bowl that protects you.
And yes, it is what scripture describes. And I gave a few examples in my prior post where sometimes it's simply referred to as a "dome".
Or sometimes you'll see it translated as "vault" or "vaulted dome" depending on if you're using the NIV, NASB, NRSV, or CEB etc.
Do you know when it is translated "dome"?
When translators use their own interpretation, and decide, based on their own ideas, that this is correct.
On this page, we find dome here:
Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Near Eastern cosmology, the concept of a circular earth or heavens was common. The Hebrews, like their neighbors, understood the world in terms of a flat disc with a dome-like sky above. The use of "chug" in the Hebrew Bible reflects this understanding, while also highlighting the sovereignty and creative power of God, who establishes the boundaries of the earth and the heavens.
That is the opinion of the authors.
However, their opinion does not in any way, reflect the Hebrew words, or the Hebrew text.
chug: Circle, circuit, compass
The dome language is more phenomenological. If you go outside and you look up, the sky looks kind of like a dome. It's blue above, the waters above. And that blue continues down to the horizon, on all sides. Like a tent.
The sky does not look "kind of like a dome" to me.
I believe sometimes, what we imagine, is based on our own ideas... what's in our head.
Do you think this happens to people?
And pillars under the earth, that's just more cosmology language.
When I read Job 9:5-12, I see Job describing physical aspects in a very poetic way.
One would need to be able to grasp the point Job is making.
Isaiah 19:1 ESV
[1] An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
I'm not sure what cosmology you're referencing here. But yes it does sound figurative with hearts melting.
Psalm 104:3 ESV
[3] He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters; he makes the clouds his chariot; he rides on the wings of the wind;
Yes, definitely figurative here. Psalm 104 is fantastic by the way. One of the best psalms. But God doesn't literally have chambers resting on a sky ocean. That's cosmology of the ancient near east.
Yes, these are figurative. But the point here is that these figurative depictions, depict an ancient Israelite cosmology. That's what the firmament is. It's essentially a solid dome in the sky.
The expanse described in the Bible, is not a solid dome.
People believe that, including yourself, but this idea is based on the belief that you stated, and the guy in the video stated, and that is also reflected in these words:
Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Near Eastern cosmology, the concept of a circular earth or heavens was common. The Hebrews, like their neighbors, understood the world in terms of a flat disc with a dome-like sky above. The use of "chug" in the Hebrew Bible reflects this understanding, while also highlighting the sovereignty and creative power of God, who establishes the boundaries of the earth and the heavens.
If your belief about this, hinges on Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Near Eastern cosmology, I don't think the Bible really factors in here.
I believe that the Bible is foremost, the means by which understanding it contents accurately, is achieved. Timothy 3:16, 17
The Bible itself does not focus on the physical shape, position, age, or other physical features of the earth, but various interpretations are presented for these.
To claim that these interpretations are facts, would not be correct.
I started this thread to ask questions so as to get a better understanding of the flat earther's view.
Some of those questions were left unanswered.
I might repost those questions, and see if anyone can answer them.
Thank you for sharing your view.