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The Filioque

truthseeker32

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It seems like RomanRite must do one of two things in order to win this debate. He must:

1. Establish that the council of Lyons was legitimate

or

2. Establish that the Filioque is a legitimate view of procession by appeal to the Christian tradition.

As a more neutral observer I must admit you have yet to establish either of these points, but I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say.
 
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RomanRite

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The Filioque controversy which has separated us for so many centuries is more than a mere technicality,[bless and do not curse]but it is not insoluble.[bless and do not curse] Qualifying the firm position taken when I wrote[bless and do not curse]The Orthodox Church[bless and do not curse]twenty years ago, I now believe, after further study, that[bless and do not curse]the problem is more in the area of semantics than in any basic doctrinal differences.[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse](Bishop Kallistos Ware, Diakonia, quoted from Elias Zoghby's[bless and do not curse]A Voice from the Byzantine East, p.43)
 
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RomanRite

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It seems like RomanRite must do one of two things in order to win this debate. He must:

1. Establish that the council of Lyons was legitimate

or

2. Establish that the Filioque is a legitimate view of procession by appeal to the Christian tradition.

As a more neutral observer I must admit you have yet to establish either of these points, but I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say.

Because you mentioned this, one must prove the filioque as heresy. If the Greek Orthodox accept the holy spirit processing from the father thorough the son, they also accept the filioque because that is Catholic teaching
 
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with all due respect, but, are you actually reading what we've been writing?
you ask we must prove that the filioque is a heresy, I believe we've done that, maybe not by writing a long theological dissertation, this is a discussion board after all, but we've have done that.

We have pointed out four major issues with the Filioque:

-The Councils agreed that the creed cannot be changed unilaterally (ArmyMatt gave you direct quotes to back this up)

-The Filioque messes with the "hierarchy" for lack of a better word of the Trinity

-To say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is not the same thing as saying the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son (quotes were given to you backing up the correct Roman Catholic dogma, not the watered down version, that the Spirit proceed equally from the Father and the Son)

-The Filioque is not an Apostolic Doctrine

What more do you want Romanrite? Would you like us to write a long dissertation on this discussion board with references and cross references, quotes, footnotes, etc etc?

I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but I think we've given you what you want but that doesn't seem to be good enough.
 
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truthseeker32

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Because you mentioned this, one must prove the filioque as heresy.
The burden of proof always always leans toward the individual arguing for the affirmative statement. For example, if we are having a debate about whether aliens exist, and you are arguing the affirmative, I don't have to disprove that aliens exist. It is enough to demonstrate that your arguments that aliens do exist are faulty. That being said, if the objective was to prove that aliens definitely don't exist, then I would have the burden of proof, and it would be enough for you to demonstrate that my arguments leave open the possibility that aliens exist.

Applying this to the Filioque debate we are having, the argument seems to be about whether it is a legitimate Christian doctrine. All your opponent has to do to undermine your argument is show that the Filioque was canonized illicitly. They don't have to demonstrate with absolute certainty that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, unless this is the objective of the debate, but it isn't.
 
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ArmyMatt

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the Catholic Church promulgated at one of its councils (Lyons maybe?) that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principle. That is NOT through the Son.

yeah it's Lyons. one principle and one spiration. 4th Lateran says that He proceeds eternally and equally from both Father and Son. neither is compatible with Father through Son.
 
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RomanRite

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It seems like RomanRite must do one of two things in order to win this debate. He must:

1. Establish that the council of Lyons was legitimate

or

2. Establish that the Filioque is a legitimate view of procession by appeal to the Christian tradition.

As a more neutral observer I must admit you have yet to establish either of these points, but I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say.

My goal is not to win a debate, but to engage in dialogue, because trying to win gives pride which is a deadly mortal sin
 
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RomanRite

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with all due respect, but, are you actually reading what we've been writing?
you ask we must prove that the filioque is a heresy, I believe we've done that, maybe not by writing a long theological dissertation, this is a discussion board after all, but we've have done that.

We have pointed out four major issues with the Filioque:

-The Councils agreed that the creed cannot be changed unilaterally (ArmyMatt gave you direct quotes to back this up)

-The Filioque messes with the "hierarchy" for lack of a better word of the Trinity

-To say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is not the same thing as saying the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son (quotes were given to you backing up the correct Roman Catholic dogma, not the watered down version, that the Spirit proceed equally from the Father and the Son)

-The Filioque is not an Apostolic Doctrine

What more do you want Romanrite? Would you like us to write a long dissertation on this discussion board with references and cross references, quotes, footnotes, etc etc?

I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but I think we've given you what you want but that doesn't seem to be good enough.

Yes I have and I was not convinced once because the Church has the authority to bind and loose, for one to reject the filioque rejects Jesus when he states he is equal to the Father.

Plus, if proceeding from the Father and the son isn't the same as through the son, then as I said earlier, we Catholics must not even know our own doctrine.

Acts 2:33
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
33 Being exalted therefore by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this which you see and hear.

No-one explains this better than St. Thomas:

"Hence also the Greeks themselves recognize that the procession of the Holy Ghost has some order to the Son. For they grant that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit 'of the Son'; and that He is from the Father 'through the Son.' Some of them are said also to concede that 'He is from the Son'; or that 'He flows from the Son,' but not that He proceeds; which seems to come from ignorance or obstinacy. For a just consideration of the truth will convince anyone that the word procession is the one most commonly applied to all that denotes origin of any kind. For we use the term to describe any kind of origin; as when we say that a line proceeds from a point, a ray from the sun, a stream from a source, and likewise in everything else. Hence, granted that the Holy Ghost originates in any way from the Son, we can conclude that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son."
 
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RomanRite

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Indeed, it was this very theology of the Cappadocian fathers (i.e., Sts. Gregory Nazianzus, Basil the Great, and Gregory of Nyssa) that the bishops at Constantinople I (381) intended to promote when they authored the Creed to say "The Holy Spirit…Who proceeds from the Father." – a reference to the Father's Monarchy as the sole Source, Principal, or Cause of the Spirit. And the bishops at Constantinople I did this to counter the heresy of the Macedonian Arians, who, at the time, were claiming that the Spirit is merely a 'creation' of the Son. "No", say the Council fathers, "the Spirit is Divine and has His Source, like the Son, with the Father. It is from the Father that the Spirit proceeds."
So, to someone coming from this Eastern heritage – indeed, for any Greek-speaker who knows what the term "ekporeusis" implies (i.e., procession from a single source, principal, or cause), the addition of the Latin clause "Filioque" ("and the Son") seriously challenges, if not totally destroys, the originally-intended meaning of this Creedal statement. And we Roman Catholics fully agree and admit this. The introduction of the Filioque is clearly a departure from the original intention and design of the A.D. 381 version of the Constantinopolitan Creed. However, it is not a departure from Apostolic orthodoxy.
 
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ArmyMatt

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33 Being exalted therefore by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this which you see and hear.

No-one explains this better than St. Thomas:

"Hence also the Greeks themselves recognize that the procession of the Holy Ghost has some order to the Son. For they grant that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit 'of the Son'; and that He is from the Father 'through the Son.' Some of them are said also to concede that 'He is from the Son'; or that 'He flows from the Son,' but not that He proceeds; which seems to come from ignorance or obstinacy. For a just consideration of the truth will convince anyone that the word procession is the one most commonly applied to all that denotes origin of any kind. For we use the term to describe any kind of origin; as when we say that a line proceeds from a point, a ray from the sun, a stream from a source, and likewise in everything else. Hence, granted that the Holy Ghost originates in any way from the Son, we can conclude that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son."

and that's the problem. in Greek there are two words for proceed, one used from a point of origin, and one through. so no, the Greeks never stated officially that the Spirit's origin is in the Son. unless you have something clear and concrete from the early centuries, that clearly shows the Spirit's eternal origin is in the Son, you are merely giving your opinion or your post Schism POV. none of which will get anywhere.
 
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RomanRite

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and that's the problem. in Greek there are two words for proceed, one used from a point of origin, and one through. so no, the Greeks never stated officially that the Spirit's origin is in the Son. unless you have something clear and concrete from the early centuries, that clearly shows the Spirit's eternal origin is in the Son, you are merely giving your opinion or your post Schism POV. none of which will get anywhere.

Because you state that we are not arriving anywhere, let's continue discussing the creed of constantiople. How does that sound ArmyMatt? :)
 
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"Because you state that we are not arriving anywhere, let's continue discussing the creed of constantiople. How does that sound ArmyMatt?"

Correct me if I'm wrong Matt, but RomanRite, I don't think he is saying we won't get anywhere, he is saying you will not get anywhere because you have not been able to establish that the Church taught the eternal and equal procession of the Spirit from both the Father and Son as a distinct statement from saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son. Instead, as ArmyMatt said, you have presented a post schism point of view that attempts to make the correct Roman Catholic dogma of the equal and eternal procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son sound the same as the Spirit proceeding from the Father through the Son.

We have gotten somewhere, we have as stated before, shown that the Church did not teach the filioque, it is not apostolic, and that to say proceed from and through is not the same as saying proceed from both.

The ball is and has been in your court for quite a while RomanRite.
 
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RomanRite

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If a human father and son go into their back yard to play a game of catch, it is the father who initiates the game of catch by throwing the ball to his son. In this sense, one can say that the game of catch "proceeds" from this human father (an "aition"); and this is the original, Greek sense of the Constantinopolitan Creed's use of the term "proceeds" ("ekporeusis"). However, taking this very same scenario, one can also justly say that the game of catch "proceeds" from both the father and his son. And this is because the son has to be there for the game of catch to exist. For, unless the son is there, then the father would have no one to throw the ball to; and so there would be no game of catch. And, it is in this sense (one might say a "collective" sense) that the West uses the term "proceeds" ("procedit") in the Filioque. Just as acknowledging the necessity of the human son's presence in order for the game of catch to exist does not, in any way, challenge or threaten the human father's role as the source or initiator (aition) of the game of catch, so the Filioque does not deny the Father's singular role as the Cause (Aition) of the Spirit; but merely acknowledges the Son's necessary Presence (i.e., participation) for the Spirit's eternal procession from the Father to Someone else – namely, to the eternal Son. Father and Son are thus collectively identified as accounting for the Spirit's procession. This is all that the Filioque was ever intended to address; and it was included in the Creed by the Western fathers at Toledo in order to counter the claims of the 6th Century Spanish (Germanic) Arians. These Arians were of course denying this essential and orthodox truth – that is, the Son's eternal participation in the Spirit's procession – an issue which was never challenged or comprehensively addressed in the Byzantine experience, aside from the fact that there does exist throughout the writings of the Eastern fathers the profession that the Spirit proceeds from the Father "through [or 'by way of'] the Son" – an expression equivalent to the Filioque.
Now, it has unfortunately become a very popular (though largely baseless) argument among modern Eastern Orthodox to claim that the Eastern fathers, in professing that the Spirit proceeds "through the Son", are always referring to the Son's temporal pouring fourth of the Spirit upon the Church (e.g. John 20:22), and so not the eternal procession of the Spirit within the Trinitarian nature of God. This of course not only seriously (nay, dangerously) threatens the very essence of the Christian Gospel (i.e., Christ's adopting us into the very same Sonship – and so the very same Spirit of Sonship [Romans 8:15] – which He Himself enjoys eternally with the Father), but it also fails to acknowledge the full testimony of the Eastern fathers.
 
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RomanRite

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Before addressing Filioque's Apostolic validity as a matter of theology, we would do well to first explore its canonical validity and the history behind its inclusion in the Western Creed. For, it is often claimed by Eastern Orthodox that the West's insertion of Filioque into the Creed violates Canon VII of the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431), which reads

"The holy Council decrees that no one should be permitted to offer a different Creed of Faith, or in any case, to write or compose another, than the one defined by the holy fathers who convened in the city of Nicaea… As for those who dare either to compose a different Creed or Faith, or to present one, or to offer one to those who wish to return to recognition of the truth, whether they be Greeks or Jews, or they be members of any heresy whatsoever, they, if bishops or clergymen, shall be deprived as bishops of their episcopate, and as clergymen of their clericate; but if they are laymen, they shall be anathematized.

Likewise, at this same Council, St. Cyril of Alexandria (as Council president) declared:
We prohibit any change whatsoever in the Creed of Faith drawn up by the holy Nicene fathers. We do not allow ourselves or anyone else to change or omit one word or syllable in that Creed.
Now, at first glance, and without resource to historical context, these decrees of the Council of Ephesus seem pretty damning to Filioque.

And, while they are easily addressed and dismissed in the light of authentic history, they do call attention to a much larger difference in the way that modern Catholics and modern Eastern Orthodox view the Church and Church authority, and why it has been so difficult for us to communicate with each other about this particular issue. But, before we delve into this larger (and much more substantive) difference, let's explore why Canon VII of the Council of Ephesus is clearly not a barrier to the inclusion of Filioque.
First of all, please notice how, in the quotes from Canon VII of Ephesus and St. Cyril of Alexandria above, the prohibition is not against adding to the Creed of Constantinople I (A.D. 381), but rather adding to the Creed "defined by the holy fathers who convened in the city of Nicaea" (A.D. 325); and, as we already observed, the Creed of Nicaea makes no mention of the Spirit's procession, but merely reads:
[We believe] in the Holy Sprit… (followed by a direct anathema against Arianism.)
So, if one wishes to be technical about it (as some Eastern Orthodox choose to do by using Canon VII of Ephesus to challenge the legitimacy of Filioque), then one must conclude that Canon VII of Ephesus renders the Constantinopolitan Creed itself illegitimate, since it also "added to" the Creed of Nicaea.
Indeed, an appreciation of the historical context of the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431), and especially the role of the patriarchate of Alexandria at this Council, is all-important here.

As I already mentioned above, the previous Ecumenical Council (or what would come to be counted as the previous Ecumenical Council), Constantinople I (381), was originally recognized to be a mere regional council of the Eastern Church. Not only did the West not participate in it, but Alexandria, the Church's second see and Eastern primate, was seriously alienated by the proceedings. For, Canon III of the Council of Constantinople unseated Alexandria from its Traditional position as primate in the East (a prerogative implicitly guaranteed by Canon VI of Nicaea) and made Constantinople itself (an episcopate with no Apostolic founder) into the second ranking see after Rome!

So, the Council of Constantinople I (381) – the same Council that drafted the Constantinopolitan Creed (with its reference to the Spirit's procession); and a council that was not yet recognized as ecumenical, but merely regional – was a direct challenge to Alexandria's primal authority in the East. And, as we will soon see, this would dramatically influence the actions of Alexandria at the Council of Ephesus, fifty years later.
Now while, according to Photius (Mansi, III, 596), Rome apparently approved and ratified the dogmatic decrees of Constantinople I (as a mere regional council), Rome did not approve of Canon III and its attempt to give Constantinople primacy over Alexandria and Antioch. Rather, in the very same year, Pope St. Damasus issued the following decree, defending the Traditional integrity of the three Apostolic patriarchates:
Although all the catholic churches spread abroad throughout the world comprise but one Bridal Chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman church has been placed at the forefront, not by the councilor decisions of the churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, Who says: "You are Peter… (Matthew 16:18-19)."

In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul who, along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero, equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph, they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the world. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman church, which has neither stain nor blemish, nor anything like that. The second see is that of Alexandria, consecrated on behalf of the blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an Evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the Apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third see is that of Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed Peter, where first he dwelled before he came to Rome, and where the name 'Christians' was first applied, as to a new people. (Decree of Damasus #3, 382 A.D.)
This was written in defense of Alexandria and as a direct refutation of Canon III of the Council of Constantinople I, which, remember, was only seen as a regional council at the time. And, sixty-nine years later, Pope St. Leo the Great (Ep. cvi in P.L., LIV, 1003, 1005) would repeat this condemnation and declare that Canon III of Constantinople I was never accepted by Rome and (like Canon XXVIII of Chalcedon) was a violation of the Nicene order (i.e., Canon VI of Nicaea).


Indeed, this move by the Council of Constantinople I (to make the imperial capital the Eastern primate in place of Alexandria) would also inspire a bitter and ongoing "feud" between Alexandria and Constantinople, in which Alexandria became very zealous (indeed, almost paranoid) about defending its Apostolic prerogatives, and so its primacy in the East over Constantinople. This agenda was clearly at play when, two decades after Canon III was drafted, Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria, the immediate successor of Patriarch St. Timothy of Alexandria (who had attended Constantinople I), condemned St. John Chrysostom (then, Bishop of Constantinople, A.D. 398-404) and stripped him of his see. It was also clearly at play when Theophilus' nephew and immediate successor, St. Cyril of Alexandria, condemned the heretical Nestorius (Bishop of Constantinople from A.D. 428-431) and presided over the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus against him.
 
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RomanRite

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"Because you state that we are not arriving anywhere, let's continue discussing the creed of constantiople. How does that sound ArmyMatt?"

Correct me if I'm wrong Matt, but RomanRite, I don't think he is saying we won't get anywhere, he is saying you will not get anywhere because you have not been able to establish that the Church taught the eternal and equal procession of the Spirit from both the Father and Son as a distinct statement from saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son. Instead, as ArmyMatt said, you have presented a post schism point of view that attempts to make the correct Roman Catholic dogma of the equal and eternal procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son sound the same as the Spirit proceeding from the Father through the Son.

We have gotten somewhere, we have as stated before, shown that the Church did not teach the filioque, it is not apostolic, and that to say proceed from and through is not the same as saying proceed from both.

The ball is and has been in your court for quite a while RomanRite.

Are you sure the filioque is heresy, or are you just ignorant to actually read what I posted? As I started earlier you still have not convinced me. If you ask me, I say we did not get far, I desired a one on one debate, instead got a bunch of opinions full of schism and apostasy
 
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ArmyMatt

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again, you are not posting anything that states that the early Church taught that the Spirit's eternal origin is in both Father and Son.

Are you sure the filioque is heresy, or are you just ignorant to actually read what I posted? As I started earlier you still have not convinced me. If you ask me, I say we did not get far, I desired a one on one debate, instead got a bunch of opinions full of schism and apostasy

and you are a guest on our forum. if you wish to insult us, find somewhere else to do it.
 
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At RomanRite

your last post was insulting, you are talking to a former Roman Catholic, remember?

It is apparent to me that you came here to pick a fight, my suggestion would be, if that is the case, to graciously leave this forum

Thank you
 
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ArmyMatt

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"Because you state that we are not arriving anywhere, let's continue discussing the creed of constantiople. How does that sound ArmyMatt?"

Correct me if I'm wrong Matt, but RomanRite, I don't think he is saying we won't get anywhere, he is saying you will not get anywhere because you have not been able to establish that the Church taught the eternal and equal procession of the Spirit from both the Father and Son as a distinct statement from saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son. Instead, as ArmyMatt said, you have presented a post schism point of view that attempts to make the correct Roman Catholic dogma of the equal and eternal procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son sound the same as the Spirit proceeding from the Father through the Son.

We have gotten somewhere, we have as stated before, shown that the Church did not teach the filioque, it is not apostolic, and that to say proceed from and through is not the same as saying proceed from both.

The ball is and has been in your court for quite a while RomanRite.

yep, that was what I was saying.
 
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I believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. I also believe that the addition of the filioque to the doctrine of the Trinity in the Church of the West (the seeds for this error being planted quite early) has had sub-conscious and far reaching unexpected consequences which are beyond ordinary comprehension, but are easily identified by the Spiritually discerned.

I'll leave this one question for us to ponder: What does a body of Christians become when within their theological tradition something mysterious has occurred, resulting in the inadvertent (and quite unnoticed) demotion of the One hypostasis of the Holy Trinity Who is depended upon to mysteriously sustain the Life of the Living organism, the Church (Herself a mystery)?
 
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