The fate of Satan, the beast and his demons mirror each other

[Spiritual Jew]

There are some things that simply won't and can't work with Amil, things I have pointed out in the past.

In your mind maybe, but that is because you sometimes interpret figurative text literally and literal text figuratively. That's your biggest problem, in my opinion.

If they can't work with Amil they still have to work with something. And since PostMil is not even an option, and that it is a position I have zero interest in, that only leaves Premil as the only option.

Even though you acknowledge that Premil also has problems. So, you conclude that both Amil and Premil have problems, but somehow decide that only Premil can be true? Okay, whatever.

And I'm not just meaning some of Zechariah 14 here, I'm also meaning passages such as Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30.

That aside. Let's assume Revelation 20:9 below is meaning before the 2nd coming rather than after like I take it to mean, which BTW, leads to another nonsensical picture if assuming Premil, which you have also pointed out in the past.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


What I have underlined can you explain what that might look like? Since you think Matthew 24:21 is involving what took place in the first century involving 70 AD, rather than it meaning in the end of this age, one can't use that verse to explain what I have underlined if assuming your position. Yet, that verse might actually explain what I have underlined might look like if that is meaning before the 2nd coming rather than after. I realize you also use 2 Thessalonians 2, except I'm not seeing anything in that chapter that is showing what I have underlined might look like if that is meaning before the 2nd coming rather than after.

The problem here is that you are taking Revelation 20:9 literally. It's figurative text. It's figuratively representing unbelievers actively opposing the church throughout the world and the fire that comes down destroys all unbelievers throughout the world (which lines up with 2 Peter 3:10-12). Simple as that. You make things too complicated for no reason.

Maybe that's because you are not willing to be truly objective about some things that appear to cause problems for your position that I and others have pointed out.

I couldn't disagree more. If I wasn't objective, I'd still be a Premil.

I only became an Amil after previously being a Premil because for the first time I studied these things objectively and I found that scripture clearly supported Amil because it repeatedly teaches things such as that there is only one day when the dead will be resurrected, only one judgment day and that literally all of the unsaved will be killed when Christ returns. We agree that all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies on that day, so that leaves no mortals to populate the earth at that point.

Such as what I just brought up concerning Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30. I'm not saying you never addressed any of that.

I have addressed those and all your other objections to Amil over the years many times and you know that. And SG has as well.

I just don't feel you were being truly objective about how these passages appear to cause problems for Amil.

I can't help it if you feel that way. I know otherwise.

 

[Timtofly]

What I have to wonder as a Premil, if the beast and fp are already in the LOF when satan is loosed, and that he had been using them to deceive others through, who does he use to help him deceive the numbers that are as the sand of the sea? If one assumes his angels, then why did he even need to work through the beast and fp to begin with? If he can deceive the masses after the thousand years without the aid of the beast and fp, why couldn't he also do it before he is bound?

That is one problem with Premil, not that there aren't other problems as well. But there are also problems with Amil since every single person satan deceives after the thousand years would already be deceived during the thousand years, because to not be deceived would equal being saved. Obviously they are not saved if they are coming against the camp of the saints after the thousand years.

What meaning does salvation have post ressurection? Did the sons of God need or even afforded salvation after they rebelled against God?

Salvation for the last 5991 years was the redemption of Adam's fallen nature. After the Second Coming, only those resurrected will be alive. Their offspring are those who after 1000 years number into the billions. There is no sin, nor Adam's flesh and blood with a sin nature.

Many here try to claim Adam's flesh and blood continue to live in the Millennium. That is not the case. By the end of Revelation 19, all humanity from Adam are physically dead. God does not resurrect sinful flesh, so salvation is not a thing post ressurection. All humanity are "redeemed". If they disobey, they are physically killed. Sin is not allowed to enter the world during this 1000 year reign. Unlike Adam who passed sin onto the world, that will not happen in the Millennium.

The remnant of the Nations are those resurrected in Revelation 20:4. Not any of Adam's flesh and blood left behind. Those resurrected are covered by the Atonement. Their names are in the Lamb's book of life. They are not the glorified church in Paradise. They are the firstfruits of life during the Millennium.

Being an overcomer is not trying to physically outlive the rest of humanity. Overcomers are still spiritually dead, and in corruptible flesh. They just don't allow this world, or Satan, or even their own desires control them. Overcomers have been martyrs, never giving in even at the point of death. Many overcomers have also died in their sleep. The end has always been physical death, not the end of the age. No one can physically live for 1991 years. No one is expected to physically live past Armageddon.

 

[sovereigngrace]

In your mind maybe, but that is because you sometimes interpret figurative text literally and literal text figuratively. That's your biggest problem, in my opinion.

Even though you acknowledge that Premil also has problems. So, you conclude that both Amil and Premil have problems, but somehow decide that only Premil can be true? Okay, whatever.

The problem here is that you are taking Revelation 20:9 literally. It's figurative text. It's figuratively representing unbelievers actively opposing the church throughout the world and the fire that comes down destroys all unbelievers throughout the world (which lines up with 2 Peter 3:10-12). Simple as that. You make things too complicated for no reason.

I couldn't disagree more. If I wasn't objective, I'd still be a Premil.

I only became an Amil after previously being a Premil because for the first time I studied these things objectively and I found that scripture clearly supported Amil because it repeatedly teaches things such as that there is only one day when the dead will be resurrected, only one judgment day and that literally all of the unsaved will be killed when Christ returns. We agree that all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies on that day, so that leaves no mortals to populate the earth at that point.

I have addressed those and all your other objections to Amil over the years many times and you know that. And SG has as well.

I can't help it if you feel that way. I know otherwise.

Do you notice how David bails out of every single discussion when it gets to the core of the issue? That is because Premil has no answer for the many contradictions that come with the passages they present and the arguments attached.

 

[DavidPT]

Do you notice how David bails out of every single discussion when it get to the core of the issue? That is because Premil has no answer for the many contradictions that come with the passages they present and the arguments attached.

It's not that I'm bailing out for the reasons you give, it's just that some of this is too tedious for me at times, having to transfer my thoughts into typing, and that I don't care for typing to begin with.

But I'm currently working on a solution, something I have been aware of for some time but assumed it involved costly software. It turns out one can actually do this for free in Win 10, no costly software needed. It's called speech recoginition, where it involves speaking into a mic into your computer in an app like Word Pad, etc. It then transfers what you say into the mic into text. Thus no typing required. I have a mic or two around here somewhere, just haven't found them yet. Then I need to figure out all of the other steps one needs to take in order to get this working, which includes learning what commands to speak into the mic, such as to begin new paragraphs, put periods at the end of sentences, etc. And since I'm pretty computer savvy for the most part, I should be able to follow the steps needed to do this.

Look how much I just typed out here explaining some of these things, IOW somewhat tedious for me. Imagine if I could have done that by simply speaking into a mic and it transferring my thoughts into text for me without me even having to type out anything. Like I said, I'm working on that.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It's not that I'm bailing out for the reasons you give, it's just that some of this is too tedious for me at times, having to transfer my thoughts into typing, and that I don't care for typing to begin with.

But I'm currently working on a solution, something I have been aware of for some time but assumed it involved costly software. It turns out one can actually do this for free in Win 10, no costly software needed. It's called speech recoginition, where it involves speaking into a mic into your computer in an app like Word Pad, etc. It then transfers what you say into the mic into text. Thus no typing required. I have a mic or two around here somewhere, just haven't found them yet. Then I need to figure out all of the other steps one needs to take in order to get this working, which includes learning what commands to speak into the mic, such as to begin new paragraphs, put periods at the end of sentences, etc. And since I'm pretty computer savvy for the most part, I should be able to follow the steps needed to do this.

Look how much I just typed out here explaining some of these things, IOW somewhat tedious for me. Imagine if I could have done that by simply speaking into a mic and it transferring my thoughts into text for me without me even having to type out anything. Like I said, I'm working on that.

Good! Glad you have found this. I have been using speech recognition for 10 years. Hope this allows you to develop more subjects to their conclusion in the future.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So, you see a number of problems with Premil. Why exactly do you spend so much time defending Premil then? Why can't you just be neutral about the thousand years instead of staunchly Premil? No one spends more time defending Premil than you do. If I thought Amil had a bunch of problems that I couldn't reconcile, you wouldn't see me on here defending Amil nearly as much as I do, if at all.

Exactly! He presents himself as the main defender of Premil here but runs when his argument is challenged, only to turn up a month later and repeat the same untenable claims. And then the cycle begins again.