The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Saint Steven]

My God, brother, that is precisely what the Archegos & Prodromos does! He pioneers the way back into Abba to have brethren to stand with Him as sons, not children, full grown sons.

In ancient times, the sons would take over the family (extended family) business to continue the work. As we mature into spiritual adulthood, we take responsibility for the work of the Father (the family business), it is a noble heritage in which we share the work and the rewards.

 

[Saint Steven]

2 Corinthians 5:17-20
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Showing that you don't know what you are taking about. "Appeal to Authority" means to cite as an authority someone who has no expertise in the field. I did not cite Tertullian, Hippolytus and Irenaeus as subject matter experts but historical evidence from the early church. If your proof text meant what you think it does one should be able to find some evidence in the early church writings. But alas there is none only the unsupported opinions of UR-ites 2000 years after the fact. Want to try again with a valid argument?

It's not so simple - see here: Appeal to Authority

Of course, you invite me into an area where you think you can trounce me. I keep my tools simple, and do not consult extra-Biblical sources such as early church fathers, Jewish encyclopedias or the Talmud. I know you have a love of scholarship, but done wrong, it can lead you into trouble just as surely as ignorance. Paul wrote that he only cared for Christ, and crucified at that. Little more is really needed, especially when I do look at overly scholarly sources and see multiple and contradictory opinions cited. Rubbish.

 

[Albion]

Here you go.

Matthew 25:46 New International Version (NIV)
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Thanks. However, the NIV is a respected translation that was complied by a number of experts. The YLT (Young's Literal Translation) is not considered to be in that category. Young was self-taught in the ancient languages and this is his own translation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I was curious about the context on that one.
Jesus is talking about his own death. And by extension, ours.
We too, if we will "die", will produce many more.

John 12:23-25
Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

It's echoed by Paul in the dictum 'Die to self live to Christ'. So this well-known gospel theme and teaching of overcoming the flesh by death and self-denial to be reborn in Christ is extended into those passages dealing with second death and overcoming in Revelation. Why do ppl deny it's the same language and process?

 

[Der Alte]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. (Jn 12:24)

Too bad this does not address my post in any way.

 

[Der Alte]

I was curious about the context on that one.
Jesus is talking about his own death. And by extension, ours.
We too, if we will "die", will produce many more.
John 12:23-25
Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Unfortunately your conclusion is not supported by the scripture you quoted.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Too bad this does not address my post in any way.

Does too. Death is necessary to overcome and find life. Second death is no different.
That might be a bit remedial for advanced students.

 

[Der Alte]

It's echoed by Paul in the dictum 'Die to self live to Christ'. So this well-known gospel theme and teaching of overcoming the flesh by death and self-denial to be reborn in Christ is extended into those passages dealing with second death and overcoming in Revelation. Why do ppl deny it's the same language and process?

Because it isn't. While the lake of fire is called the second death 3 times, not one single verse says anything/anyone is thrown into the lake of fire then they die.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Because it isn't. While the lake of fire is called the second death 3 times, not one single verse says anything/anyone is thrown into the lake of fire then they die.

Aka the second death. Overcoming. Why's being thrown in the LoF called the second death then monsieur?

 

[Der Alte]

It's not so simple - see here: Appeal to Authority

Irrelevant! As I said I did not quote anyone as an authority. I quoted ECF which is the ONLY historical evidence available but which heterodox religious groups avoid like the plague since they disprove their johnny come lately teachings.

Of course, you invite me into an area where you think you can trounce me. I keep my tools simple, and do not consult extra-Biblical sources such as early church fathers, Jewish encyclopedias or the Talmud. I know you have a love of scholarship, but done wrong, it can lead you into trouble just as surely as ignorance.

Now all you have to do is show me how my scholarship is done wrong? I'll be waiting. Unlike me what you do is cherry pick "versions" simply because they support your assumptions/presuppositions not because they have been shown to be superior.

Paul wrote that he only cared for Christ, and crucified at that. Little more is really needed, especially when I do look at overly scholarly sources and see multiple and contradictory opinions cited. Rubbish.

Guess what amigo you ain't Paul and you don't have anything close to his credentials. Talk about rubbish.

 

[FineLinen]

It's echoed by Paul in the dictum 'Die to self live to Christ'. So this well-known gospel theme and teaching of overcoming the flesh by death and self-denial to be reborn in Christ is extended into those passages dealing with second death and overcoming in Revelation. Why do ppl deny it's the same language and process?

Dear Shrewd: I like the direction our Father lays for the foundation of union with Him. The direction up is down. Take up YOUR cross & follow Me. My cross is more than you can bear, your cross will bring you to the end of your life & into Mine.

Christian> > > saint > >> overcomer

Overcomer = these are they who make their way thru great distress.

 

[Der Alte]

Aka the second death. Overcoming. Why's being thrown in the LoF called the second death then monsieur?

Show me where anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire and they/it dies? The proof is in the pudding.

Revelation 20:14 (KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

Death is the point in time end of life it has no physical properties it cannot be thrown anywhere, it has not and cannot die a first time therefore it cannot die a second time.
Hell if the grave is holes in the ground which have not and cannot die a first time therefore cannot die a second time. If hell refers to the place of punishment it has not and cannot die a first time therefore it cannot die a second death.

Revelation 20:10 (KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The verb "shall be tormented" is plural, it includes all three the devil, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person. No second death here.
.....The lake of fire is the second death and the second death is the lake of fire. The terms are interchangeable.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Show me where anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire and they/it dies? The proof is in the pudding.

Show me where anyone tops themselves according to Paul's dictum 'Die to self live to Christ'? Plainly nobody is advocating suicide. Granted, Jesus lays down his life for his friends, and loving self-sacrifice is the key, but there are many forms of self-sacrifice that don't involve literal death.

'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. (Rev 3:21)

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev 20:6)

Gotta overcome the devil to get to heaven. If not it's into the the LoF:

This is the second death--the lake of fire. (Rev 20:6b)

'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

So the 'LoF' or 'second death' is the painful process of overcoming the torments of the flesh, in order to be born again in Christ.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Dear Shrewd: I like the direction our Father lays for the foundation of union with Him. The direction up is down. Take up YOUR cross & follow Me. My cross is more than you can bear, your cross will bring you to the end of your life & into Mine.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from Jesus being the ultimate high-places sacrifice to idols. God knew the Jews just couldn't stop with their poles, groves and high places. So as we're taught to not resist an evil person, He gave His son over to that idolatry, to become the curse. Sadly now, ppl think that it was God who demanded appeasement, when really it was all to expose the folly of the world and light the true path.

 

[FineLinen]

I think a lot of the confusion comes from Jesus being the ultimate high-places sacrifice to idols. God knew the Jews just couldn't stop with their poles, groves and high places. So as we're taught to not resist an evil person, He gave His son over to that idolatry, to become the curse. Sadly now, ppl think that it was God who demanded appeasement, when really it was all to expose the folly of the world and light the true path.

Dear Shrewd: Our Lord and Saviour the Master of Reconciliation, did not die to appease an angry god. He freely left the Echad behind by emptying Himself and taking the form of a servant. The Royal road of emptying is the tone for all that will follow Him to become sons and daughters of Abba

The Prince-Leader is the Archegos & Prodromos whose blessed mission will be accomplished in intimate detail as the at-one-ment of the Mercy Seat.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Dear Shrewd: Our Lord and Saviour the Master of Reconciliation, did not die to appease an angry god. He freely left the Echad behind by emptying Himself and taking the form of a servant. The Royal road of emptying is the tone for all that will follow Him to become sons and daughters of Abba

The Prince-Leader is the Archegos & Prodromos whose blessed mission will be accomplished in intimate detail as the at-one-ment of the Mercy Seat.

That's right, but Jesus was given into the hands of those that would sacrifice him to their false idols, claiming the name of the true God. As so it is today.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Unlike me what you do is cherry pick "versions" simply because they support your assumptions/presuppositions not because they have been shown to be superior.

Actually, in my time here, I have mostly used a version most opposed to my position: the KJV. Apparently you did not notice that.

I know you love scholarship, but I see it as being like the Darien Gap - fascinating, but you are unlikely to ever reach the other side.

 

[Saint Steven]

Thanks. However, the NIV is a respected translation that was complied by a number of experts. The YLT (Young's Literal Translation) is not considered to be in that category. Young was self-taught in the ancient languages and this is his own translation.

I think most pastors have both of the main respected concordances, Strong's and Young's.

 

[Der Alte]

Actually, in my time here, I have mostly used a version most opposed to my position: the KJV. Apparently you did not notice that.
I know you love scholarship, but I see it as being like the Darien Gap - fascinating, but you are unlikely to ever reach the other side.

I respect scholarship. When I go to a doctor, lawyer, accountant, etc I don't want some guy who is self taught I want to see some scholarship. I want to see some diplomas on the wall and some membership in professional organizations e.g. AMA, ABA, AAFA etc. It seems like Theology is the only field where someone with a Strong's concordance thinks they are more qualified than someone with a ThD. What about that gap again?