The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Lazarus Short]

Yes.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

A large group is destroyed and a smaller group (FEW) are the ones that find life.

If a large part of humanity is permanently annihilated, please explain how Death is defeated/destroyed. See First Corinthians 15:26.

 

[Der Alte]

Sorry, I'm not seeing it. Unlike the relevant part of First Corinthians 15, the Scripture you quote neither declare The End, nor do they describe the Son handing the Kingdom over to the Father. Playing the "rubbish" card does not help. I think you prefer the Revelation because it still leaves some in the fire, but if God is going to be All in all, they must have come out.

Your last sentence is an assumption based on a false presupposition. Of course, you don't see it because your false assumptions/presuppositions blinds you to anything but your handful of out-of-context proof texts even after I have pointed it out to you.

 

[Albion]

If a large part of humanity is permanently annihilated, please explain how Death is defeated/destroyed. See First Corinthians 15:26.

No one deserves salvation on his own merits. So if God in his love makes provision for anyone to be saved, it amounts to overcoming death which otherwise would claim us all.

 

[FineLinen]

No one deserves salvation on his own merits. So if God in his love makes provision for anyone to be saved, it amounts to overcoming death which otherwise would claim us all.

Dear Albion: Bingo!

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us.' -Eph. 2:4

The Love of God is great. It is megas in degree & intensity, size & measure.

"It wasn’t so long ago that you were mired in that old stagnant life of sin. You let the world, which doesn’t know the first thing about living, tell you how to live. You filled your lungs with polluted unbelief, and then exhaled disobedience. We all did it, all of us doing what we felt like doing, when we felt like doing it, all of us in the same boat. It’s a wonder God didn’t lose his temper and do away with the whole lot of us.

Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, he embraced us.

He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on his own, with no help from us! Then he picked us up and set us down in highest heaven in company with Jesus, our Messiah." -The Message-

 

[Lazarus Short]

Your last sentence is an assumption based on a false presupposition. Of course, you don't see it because your false assumptions/presuppositions blinds you to anything but your handful of out-of-context proof texts even after I have pointed it out to you.

I simply see it as a logical consequence of of the Biblical FACT of the defeat/destruction of Death. If you call it an assumption, you are assuming a lot. Be aware that I have examined every verse in the KJV with a view to deciding between afterlife theories.

 

[Lazarus Short]

No one deserves salvation on his own merits. So if God in his love makes provision for anyone to be saved, it amounts to overcoming death which otherwise would claim us all.

My point is that if ANYONE is still dead and/or in Hell, then Death is neither defeated or destroyed.

 

[Albion]

My point is that if ANYONE is still dead and/or in Hell, then Death is neither defeated or destroyed.

I know that that is your interpretation of the issue and of the wording, but it also makes sense if understood as I explained. In addition, there is very good reason to understand it the way most Christians do, since that is the 'manner of speaking' which we find throughout the Bible.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I know that that is your interpretation of the issue and of the wording, but it also makes sense if understood as I explained. In addition, there is very good reason to understand it the way most Christians do, since that is the 'manner of speaking' which we find throughout the Bible.

Yes, I know that many think of it as "the dead are dead, but no one dies after this." My problem with that is how God then becomes All in all.

 

[Der Alte]

My point is that if ANYONE is still dead and/or in Hell, then Death is neither defeated or destroyed.

Death being defeated does not mean everybody comes back to life. It means people do not continue to die.

 

[Albion]

Yes, I know that many think of it as "the dead are dead, but no one dies after this." My problem with that is how God then becomes All in all.

God is 'All in all' by being God, natch! He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, the Alpha and the Omega, etc. A lone sparrow does not so much as fall without him knowing it. You are aware of all of this.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Death being defeated does not mean everybody comes back to life. It means people do not continue to die.

I-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T-A-T-I-O-N.

 

[Lazarus Short]

God is 'All in all' by being God, natch! He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, the Alpha and the Omega, etc. A lone sparrow does not so much as fall without him knowing it. You are aware of all of this.

...and then some.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The issue in this thread about Universalism is whether hell is forever--or not. I have tried to stick to the subject in my posts. What hell is like, who winds up there, and etc. is really not the topic.

That's a non sequitur, and a very poor attempt to sidestep the consequences of an eternal hell doctrine. If Jesus name is God's Salvation and he is the right arm of God, then how does it reflect on God if Jesus doesn't actually save but instead passively condemns most to hell? If he was in business he wouldn't make it thru the first trading quarter.

 

[Albion]

That's a non sequitur,....

I don't think it is.

...and a very poor attempt to sidestep the consequences of an eternal hell doctrine.

Well, the thread is not about the "consequences of" an eternal hell doctrine. Those can and should be taken up on other threads.

If Jesus name is God's Salvation and he is the right arm of God, then how does it reflect on God if Jesus doesn't actually save but instead passively condemns most to hell?

We have already taken up this point. No one is deserving of salvation on his own merits. If he were, that wouldn't be a matter of Jesus saving him.

It would rather be a matter of the person having earned it.

So salvation is a function of Grace, God's free gift of forgiveness. As such ANYONE who is saved is the beneficiary of a perfectly generous act on God's part, and that doesn't change whether it is a handful or a jillion humans.

 

[Der Alte]

I-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T-A-T-I-O-N.

P-R-O-V-E--I-T!

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book V.Chap. XXXVI.
2. For in the times of the kingdom, the righteous man who is upon the earth shall then forget to die. “But when He saith, All things shall be subdued unto Him, it is manifest that He is excepted who did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” (1Co_15:27-28)

Irenaeus Against Heresies Chap. XXVII. — The Future Judgment by Christ. Communion with and Separation from the Divine Being. The Eternal Punishment of Unbelievers.
1. … For “He came to divide a man against his father, and the daughter against the mother, and the daughter-in-law against the mother-in-law;” (Mat_10:25) and when two are in one bed, to take the one, and to leave the other; and of two women grinding at the mill, to take one and leave the other: (Luk_17:34) [also] at the time of the end, to order the reapers to collect first the tares together, and bind them in bundles, and burn them with unquenchable fire, but to gather up the wheat into the barn; (Mat_13:30) and to call the lambs into the kingdom prepared for them, but to send the goats into everlasting fire, which has been prepared by His Father for the devil and his angels. (Mat_25:33, etc.) And why is this? Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; (Luk_10:12) but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.

Tertullian Part First I. Apology. Chapter XLV
No doubt about it, we, who receive our awards under the judgment of an all-seeing God, and who look forward to eternal punishment from Him for sin, — we alone make real effort to attain a blameless life, under the influence of our ampler knowledge, the impossibility of concealment, and the greatness of the threatened torment, not merely long-enduring but everlasting, fearing Him, whom he too should fear who the fearing judges, — even God, I mean, and not the proconsul.

Tertullian Part Second VII. Against Praxeas.
“When, however, all things shall be subdued to Him, (with the exception of Him who did put all things under Him,) then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” (1Co_15:27-28) We thus see that the Son is no obstacle to the Monarchy, although it is now administered by23 the Son; because with the Son it is still in its own state, and with its own state will be restored to the Father by the Son.

The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. Part II.
6. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For all things are put under Him. But when He saith, All things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. Then shall He also Himself be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” (1Co_15:23-28) If, therefore, all things are put under Him with the exception of Him who put them under Him, He is Lord of all, and the Father is Lord of Him, that in all there might be manifested one God, to whom all things are made subject together with Christ, to whom the Father hath made all things subject, with the exception of Himself.

Hippolytus Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe.
2. And being present at His judicial decision, all, both men and angels and demons, shall utter one voice, saying, “Righteous is Thy judgment.” (Psa_119:37) Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.​

 

[Lazarus Short]

P-R-O-V-E--I-T!

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book V.Chap. XXXVI.
2. For in the times of the kingdom, the righteous man who is upon the earth shall then forget to die. “But when He saith, All things shall be subdued unto Him, it is manifest that He is excepted who did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” (1Co_15:27-28)

Irenaeus Against Heresies Chap. XXVII. — The Future Judgment by Christ. Communion with and Separation from the Divine Being. The Eternal Punishment of Unbelievers.
1. … For “He came to divide a man against his father, and the daughter against the mother, and the daughter-in-law against the mother-in-law;” (Mat_10:25) and when two are in one bed, to take the one, and to leave the other; and of two women grinding at the mill, to take one and leave the other: (Luk_17:34) [also] at the time of the end, to order the reapers to collect first the tares together, and bind them in bundles, and burn them with unquenchable fire, but to gather up the wheat into the barn; (Mat_13:30) and to call the lambs into the kingdom prepared for them, but to send the goats into everlasting fire, which has been prepared by His Father for the devil and his angels. (Mat_25:33, etc.) And why is this? Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; (Luk_10:12) but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.

Tertullian Part First I. Apology. Chapter XLV
No doubt about it, we, who receive our awards under the judgment of an all-seeing God, and who look forward to eternal punishment from Him for sin, — we alone make real effort to attain a blameless life, under the influence of our ampler knowledge, the impossibility of concealment, and the greatness of the threatened torment, not merely long-enduring but everlasting, fearing Him, whom he too should fear who the fearing judges, — even God, I mean, and not the proconsul.

Tertullian Part Second VII. Against Praxeas.
“When, however, all things shall be subdued to Him, (with the exception of Him who did put all things under Him,) then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” (1Co_15:27-28) We thus see that the Son is no obstacle to the Monarchy, although it is now administered by23 the Son; because with the Son it is still in its own state, and with its own state will be restored to the Father by the Son.

The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. Part II.
6. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For all things are put under Him. But when He saith, All things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. Then shall He also Himself be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” (1Co_15:23-28) If, therefore, all things are put under Him with the exception of Him who put them under Him, He is Lord of all, and the Father is Lord of Him, that in all there might be manifested one God, to whom all things are made subject together with Christ, to whom the Father hath made all things subject, with the exception of Himself.

Hippolytus Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe.
2. And being present at His judicial decision, all, both men and angels and demons, shall utter one voice, saying, “Righteous is Thy judgment.” (Psa_119:37) Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.​

Appeal to Authority. IIRC, my college textbook for Logic 101 listed it as a logical fallacy.

 

[FineLinen]

I don't think it is.


Well, the thread is not about the "consequences of" an eternal hell doctrine. Those can and should be taken up on other threads.


We have already taken up this point. No one is deserving of salvation on his own merits. If he were, that wouldn't be a matter of Jesus saving him.

It would rather be a matter of the person having earned it.

So salvation is a function of Grace, God's free gift of forgiveness. As such ANYONE who is saved is the beneficiary of a perfectly generous act on God's part, and that doesn't change whether it is a handful or a jillion humans.

Dear Albion: The fatal flaw (s) of the Restitution of all things is the subject at hand, as you already posted.

One of those flaws is NOT earning the grace of our God. It is NOT being worthy of His great love. One of those "flaws" is the fact the entire work of salvation is His desire, His Plan, His purpose with no consultation from us.

God's exceedingly abundant reach in His love for lost sinners.

 

[Der Alte]

Appeal to Authority. IIRC, my college textbook for Logic 101 listed it as a logical fallacy.

Showing that you don't know what you are taking about. "Appeal to Authority" means to cite as an authority someone who has no expertise in the field. I did not cite Tertullian, Hippolytus and Irenaeus as subject matter experts but historical evidence from the early church. If your proof text meant what you think it does one should be able to find some evidence in the early church writings. But alas there is none only the unsupported opinions of UR-ites 2000 years after the fact. Want to try again with a valid argument?

 

[Saint Steven]

Meaning what?--you are recommending a different Bible?

No. Although there are some Bibles that are better in this regard. Check with @Lazarus Short if you are interested. Otherwise, some care is required to know where the problems are. Perhaps you heard some of us talk about the language issues.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Unfortunately, what you call the overwhelming "testimony of Scripture" is based on a Damnationist biased text.

 

[Albion]

No. Although there are some Bibles that are better in this regard. Check with @Lazarus Short if you are interested. Otherwise, some care is required to know where the problems are. Perhaps you heard some of us talk about the language issues.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Unfortunately, what you call the overwhelming "testimony of Scripture" is based on a Damnationist biased text.

That criticism means nothing to me, as it would have to include every one of the most respected Bible translations; and you apparently cannot answer with even a short explanation or a few examples of what you are trying to say is different from one translation to the next.