The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Saint Steven]

I think I know enough to refute it.

I don't have time to study such nonsense when I have only scratched the surface of God's Word in my lifetime.

I want to grow in Christ, not get bogged down in nonsense that leads nowhere.

So, somehow life is better with a forever burning hell? Why?

If there was any possibility that the "church" was wrong about eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape, wouldn't you want to know if it was true? The only way to know is to study it out. Or you could take the easy route and ask us questions about it. You are just spinning your wheels going nowhere currently. This topic is nonsense. You were completely unprepared. If this was a debate, you would have lost already.

 

[Saint Steven]

LOL, that's what Liston said just before Ali knocked him out.

Good, show us what you are made of.

 

[Saint Steven]

I would like to challenge the popular notion that God is free to do whatever he wants. He is not. Or better stated, he will not.

I believe God will not do anything that violates his character. Which means we can trust him. The Damnationist' view of God's character is just wrong. The God that requires us to forgive others if we want to be forgiven would never fail to live up to that same standard of godliness.

This bears repeating.
Not sure why it's not "unbearable" for the Damnationists. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Oh, I remember this discussion from earlier.
You are talking about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the unpardonable sin. Yet...
- You have no idea what the sin is exactly.
- You don't know if you may have committed it.
- You believe you will burn forever if you have. (because it is unforgivable)

Am I missing anything here?

I was looking for this post earlier.

 

[Saint Steven]

If God is a liar, a cheat, a thief, a murderer, a swindler, a torturer, and worse; then he can't be trusted.
If he can't be trusted, why should he be good for your promise of salvation? Maybe it is an evil joke.
He'll laugh while he tosses you in hell. Because he can do whatever he wants, right?

This one earned 3 Winner ratings and 1 Agree. Must be worth repeating.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think you have it backwards.
God has established the moral standards. It is only reasonable that we should expect him to live up to the standards that he himself has established. This does not mean we are expecting him to live up to OUR standards, we expect him to live up to his OWN standards. If he cannot do that, then he cannot be trusted.

This is the fatal flaw of Damnationism. Because Damnationism has created a god that doesn't live up to the moral standards of God. What we might want to call idolatry. But I don't hold them responsible, we have all been fed the lies.

This one has 3 winner ratings so far. Seems to make a good point or two.

 

[Charlie24]

Sounds like a misquote. But that agrees with Universalism. (the actual quote, I mean)

How do you "know" it is not temporary? Is it because God is not merciful? Is it because God will not forgive his enemies as he requires us to do? Why exactly?

How do I know it is not temporary?

I think we agree that if you don't repent in this life you will go to hell. I assume this of course, that we agree.

Heb. 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After death you are judged! There is no more chance to repent.

That would mean the lost will stay lost with no chance of entering heaven.

 

[Lazarus Short]

My Lord, what a way to look at our Father!

How do you know at that moment she didn't call on the Lord and was forgiven?

How do you know anything about why the Almighty allowed this to happen.

I can tell you SM, the Lord is very displeased with your attitude toward Him.

You have taken unto yourself the Judgement of God, and declared Him unrighteous.

May the Lord have mercy on you my friend.

I just cannot but reply at this point. Charlie sez, "You have taken unto yourself the Judgement of God, and declared Him unrighteous."

Just before that, he sez this: "I can tell you SM, the Lord is very displeased with your attitude toward Him."

Thus, doing the very thing he accuses our Shrewd Manager of.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hell being a place of purification is a lie straight from the pits of hell.

Wow. Did you really just say that. Oh, my.
So you believe that hell has a marketing department? Like a tourist attraction.
Seems to be a HOT industry right now. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

You cherry pick scripture to present such a thing. It's not found in the Word of God.

Wow. You are really on a roll today.
I thought you claimed that the scriptures ARE the Word of God.
How could that have been cherry picked from scripture if it is NOT the Word of God?

 

[Saint Steven]

I think we agree that if you don't repent in this life you will go to hell. I assume this of course, that we agree.

See. This proves that you don't know what we believe. You assume? ????

 

[Charlie24]

Going to hunt me down a thick ribeye.

Catch you guys later.

 

[Saint Steven]

Heb. 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After death you are judged! There is no more chance to repent.

That would mean the lost will stay lost with no chance of entering heaven.

Why do you claim a verdict before judgment? That's not how it works.
If you are called to appear before a judge, does that mean you have already been convicted? (nope)

Are you claiming that God's justice is a "kangaroo trial".

 

[Saint Steven]

Going to hunt me down a thick ribeye.

Catch you guys later.

After that you might need a nap. Then you will be ready for more lively debate. - lol

 

[Lazarus Short]

I think I know enough to refute it.

I don't have time to study such nonsense when I have only scratched the surface of God's Word in my lifetime.

I want to grow in Christ, not get bogged down in nonsense that leads nowhere.

You "have only scratched the surface of God's Word," yet you "know enough to refute it [Universalism]"?

Amazing!

 

[Lazarus Short]

I contemplate the title of this thread and must wonder what the fatal flaw of Damnationism is. BTW, I have been using the term since about 2014 and maybe earlier, but I don't know if I coined it or picked it up somewhere. I used it a lot on Craigslist's Religion forum, until I got kicked off.

Anyway, back to fatal flaws. As I have said here and other places, by 2014 I was faced with a trilemma as to which of three afterlife scenarios was correct. Of course I am referring to Damnationism, Annihilationism and Universalism. I decided to couch them as theories and see which one fit the data (the Biblical text) best. I found little support for Annihilation, but there was some. I found that Damnation had evidence, but it became more and more evident that the Biblical text, at least in the KJV, was made to fit the doctrine, rather than the other way around.

The fatal flaw is this: to make the doctrine stick, the translators rendered four words as "hell," and made "hell" agree with Dante. Milton came along a little later. Imagine that - the Truth of God's Word rewritten to agree with a work of fiction. Think about that for a moment.

Besides, they biased other words: "judgement" became "condemnation" and even "damnation." I could go on.

The result is that we get the KJV, a Bible which speaks of "everlasting punishment," damnation to hell, and on and on...and yet lets the light shine in as well, for instance in admitting that God will make our scarlet sins as white as snow. Sadly, most folks read right on through their KJV's and never catch the contradiction. However if you are paying attention, you can see the flaws, and if you grab a good concordance and/or dictionary, you can dig deep enough to find the fatal flaw of biased translation.

 

[Saint Steven]

Anyway, back to fatal flaws. As I have said here and other places, by 2014 I was faced with a trilemma as to which of three afterlife scenarios was correct. Of course I am referring to Damnationism, Annihilationism and Universalism. I decided to couch them as theories and see which one fit the data (the Biblical text) best. I found little support for Annihilation, but there was some. I found that Damnation had evidence, but it became more and more evident that the Biblical text, at least in the KJV, was made to fit the doctrine, rather than the other way around.

I agree. All three views of the final judgment have biblical support.
But when you dig into it, Universalism keeps coming out on top.

 

[Saint Steven]

The result is that we get the KJV, a Bible which speaks of "everlasting punishment," damnation to hell, and on and on...and yet lets the light shine in as well, for instance in admitting that God will make our scarlet sins as white as snow. Sadly, most folks read right on through their KJV's and never catch the contradiction. However if you are paying attention, you can see the flaws, and if you grab a good concordance and/or dictionary, you can dig deep enough to find the fatal flaw of biased translation.

I wonder how these scriptures slipped through the cracks. Not sure if it was an oversight or an inside job to include some Universalist texts unaltered.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Charlie24]

Why do you claim a verdict before judgment? That's not how it works.
If you are called to appear before a judge, does that mean you have already been convicted? (nope)

Are you claiming that God's justice is a "kangaroo trial".

What happens when you die?

You will go to heaven or hell.

That is the judgement Paul was speaking of, if you believe Paul wrote Hebrews, I do.

You will stand before Jesus later for judgement if you are saved.

You will stand before God later at the Great White Throne of Judgement if lost.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Steve, I assume that just like modern readers, the KJV translators did not comprehend the contradictions. It may be that the terminology we now argue over did not exist in 1611. I recall that the word "hades" did not enter the English language until the 16th century or thereabouts - I read that somewhere, and offer it as an example.