The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Charlie24]

But you're all for the type of Swiss Cheese that promotes limited atonement? Thought you rejected Calvinism Charlie?

As you know, I believe man chooses his own fate, not God choosing for him.

Is that a rejection of Calvinism?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

As you know, I believe man chooses his own fate, not God choosing for him.

I agree, but say all mankind will come to choose God, because we've all got the manufacturer's name on or hearts.

Is that a rejection of Calvinism?

It's a lack of faith in God's will and power to save the world. It's like someone who looks upon a crucified man and says No way that'll ever change anyone's mind.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree, but say all mankind will come to choose God, because we've all got the manufacturer's name on or hearts.



It's a lack of faith in God's will and power to save the world. It's like someone who looks upon a crucified man and says No way that'll ever change anyone's mind.

God can do whatever He wants. But He's already told us straight is the way and narrow is the gate that leads to life, and few there be that find it.

The UR is falsely claiming there is a return from this fate, but the scripture shows no such thing.

It's one false claim after another, taking out of context one scripture after another.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God can do whatever He wants. But He's already told us straight is the way and narrow is the gate that leads to life, and few there be that find it.

The UR is falsely claiming there is a return from this fate, but the scripture shows no such thing.

It's one false claim after another, taking out of context one scripture after another.

Every professing Christian claims to be on the narrow path. Seems to me there's always many more worthy, if we care to compare ourselves to others. I'm guessing you like me haven't taken vows of poverty and chastity, for instance. How do you know you'll 'make the cut for the team' there bro? Because the alternative is really nasty in damnation theology, isn't it.

And if you were to get a 'depart from me' (God forbid), would it be reason to abandon all hope?

 

[Charlie24]

Every professing Christian claims to be on the narrow path. Seems to me there's always many more worthy, if we care to compare ourselves to others. I'm guessing you like me haven't taken vows of poverty and chastity, for instance. How do you know you'll 'make the cut for the team' there bro? Because the alternative is really nasty in damnation theology, isn't it.

And if you were to get a 'depart from me' (God forbid), would it be reason to abandon all hope?

All wishful thinking with no scriptural foundation.

You can't change the plan of God by changing His Word.

As for my fate and destiny, I can prove to no man.

All men will stand before God according to what he did with God's Word.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

All wishful thinking with no scriptural foundation.

There's nothing wishful about giving full faith to God's manifold promises of salvation of all. God brings forth life from death, strength from weakness, wisdom from foolishness. He overcomes sin with grace, enmity with friendship, brokenness with reconciliation.

Your image of Him is of a harsh Roman magistrate meting out punishments. I put it to you that's not the God of the Bible Charlie. You may have stepped out of the elevator at the wrong floor sir.

 

[Charlie24]

There's nothing wishful about giving full faith to God's manifold promises of salvation of all. God brings forth life from death, strength from weakness, wisdom from foolishness. He overcomes sin with grace, enmity with friendship, brokenness with reconciliation.

Your image of Him is of a harsh Roman magistrate meting out punishments. I put it to you that's not the God of the Bible Charlie. You may have stepped out of the elevator at the wrong floor sir.

His judgement reaches as far as His mercy and grace.

That's the fact that UR rejects!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

His judgement reaches as far as His mercy and grace.

That's the fact that UR rejects!

If that's the case, the result must be restorative justice, otherwise there are tensions and contradictions, and we know God is one, His holy attributes are unified and harmonious.

 

[FineLinen]

His judgement reaches as far as His mercy and grace.

That's the fact that UR rejects!

You have managed to turn the manifold love and grace of the Lord our God around, Charles!

God's judgement reaches out of His mercy & grace to a perfect consummation.

The Restitution of the ta pante is firmly centered in this fact! ! !

"Do you believe that the God of Jesus loves you beyond worthiness and unworthiness, beyond fidelity and infidelity—that he loves you in the morning sun and in the evening rain—that he loves you when your intellect denies it, your emotions refuse it, your whole being rejects it. Do you believe that God loves without condition or reservation and loves you this moment as you are and not as you should be." -Brennan Manning-

 

[Lazarus Short]

His judgement reaches as far as His mercy and grace.

Conversely, does His mercy and grace reach as far as his judgment? Surely they do, otherwise how can He make ALL things new?

 

[Charlie24]

You have managed to turn the manifold love and grace of the Lord our God around, Charles!

God's judgement reaches out of His mercy & grace to a perfect consummation.

The Restitution of the ta pante is firmly centered in this fact! ! !

"Do you believe that the God of Jesus loves you beyond worthiness and unworthiness, beyond fidelity and infidelity—that he loves you in the morning sun and in the evening rain—that he loves you when your intellect denies it, your emotions refuse it, your whole being rejects it. Do you believe that God loves without condition or reservation and loves you this moment as you are and not as you should be." -Brennan Manning-

I believe the Bible! It has a different view of God than does the UR.

Claims that can't be proven but only sensitized, is not acceptable.

 

[frogface62]

I don't believe Universalists are trying to come up with a new translation; rather they turn to the original language for better understanding. My Greek is definitely not good enough to interpret the New Testament in the original language myself, however, my English and Dutch are good enough to see all the plain to read verses that indicate universal reconciliation is the end (goal, purpose) of Jesus Christ, and plainly prophecied.

This link has a great summary of all the verses I mean:
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Many of us will disagree. Are you a Mormon?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Many of us will disagree. Are you a Mormon?

Hello Frogface. Why do you thing Jord would be a Mormon, is it because he's Dutch? Or do you say Mormons subscribe to the 'larger hope'?

 

[frogface62]

Hello Frogface. Why do you thing Jord would be a Mormon, is it because he's Dutch? Or do you say Mormons subscribe to the 'larger hope'?

They (The Mormons) are ultimately universalists.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

They (The Mormons) are ultimately universalists.

That so? Good for them. However, just because all Mormons might be universalists, does not mean that all universalists are Mormons, by any stretch.

So is your eschatology damnation or annihilation or restoration? Or maybe something else?

 

[FineLinen]

Many of us will disagree. Are you a Mormon?

Dear Frogface: welcome to the wonderful world of C.F. Perhaps we will be able to sing together in coming days.

The Restitution of the all has those in every group. Some are quiet believers, others have been enraptured into the glorious thought that our Father finishes what He begins as the A.& F. And there are remarkable saints like Wm. Law & the author of over 700 hymns Isaac Watts. Let's sing > > >

He comes to make His blessings flow FAR AS THE CURSE IS FOUND!

 

[Saint Steven]

It's not a contradiction, unless you falsely believe that those in Christ will be everyone.

Fair enough. Let's take attendance and see who is missing.
- Those in heaven -- Check
- Those on earth -- Check
- Those under the earth (in the realm of the dead) -- Check
Anybody missing?
Every knee and every tongue. Anybody missing?

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 Strong's definition.
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

 

[Charlie24]

Fair enough. Let's take attendance and see who is missing.
- Those in heaven -- Check
- Those on earth -- Check
- Those under the earth (in the realm of the dead) -- Check
Anybody missing?
Every knee and every tongue. Anybody missing?

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 Strong's definition.
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

2 Thes. 2:11-12

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Where do they get out of this Steven? Show me in scripture.

Here's your opportunity to prove your theology.

 

[Der Alte]

...
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Yes every knee will will bow and every tongue confess. The obedient out of love, trust and faith the unrighteous will be conquered enemies.

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

What does make your enemies your footstool mean?

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.​

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 Strong's definition.

S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Everything in red is totally false.
"exomolegeo" occurs a total of 11 times here are the other ten. It never means "fully agree,""agree openly,""whole-heartedly,"""without reservation, no holding back."
Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”

 

[Saint Steven]

2 Thes. 2:11-12

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Where do they get out of this Steven? Show me in scripture.

Here's your opportunity to prove your theology.

Seems like a bad case of the "Ya, but..."s.
There's a lot of that going around. Somehow the scripture I quoted is brushed aside so that you can challenge me with your own. How come? Shouldn't you tell me who is missing first?

At any rate, the context of what you quoted is in reference to the end times delusion of the Antichrist. And I agree that there will be condemnation for those who are not believers. So, what is your point? (after telling me who is missing)

2 Thessalonians 2:5-12
Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.