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My "moral sentiments"?Jesus said that hell is real. Please explain how your moral sentiments are greater than his.
We cannot compare anything that imperfect man does, thinks etc. with God. We do not determine what is right, just, acceptable etc. for God to do.My "moral sentiments"?
You didn't really address my post.
If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character? How is that any different?
Saint Steven said: ↑
That's quite a claim from someone who thinks God will torment his enemies in fire and brimstone for all eternity with no hope of escape. Somehow that's not immoral?
We can be pretty certain that no one would choose by their own free will to remain in what you call hell when they can by their own free will choose to leave. How long would it take you to decide?
We cannot compare anything that imperfect man does, thinks etc. with God. We do not determine what is right, just, acceptable etc. for God to do.
If a man set fire to a town and killed many people it would be a crime but God did that when He destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains with fire.
Not sure how this responds to my post. If at all.God also stated later that He would restore the fortunes of those people. It's no big deal with God for the exact reason that He is going to resurrect them in the future.
Ezekiel 16:53 "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:"
Hell is not a firey torture chamber. It's a place of eternal separation from God.
Perhaps you should pay more attention to what I write instead of trying to play gotcha. I said "There was no fiery lake for Moses." I have previously posted quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encylopedia Judaica and the Talmud documenting that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and Sheol.
I might take that up at the proper time.You might care to straighten Qwerty out on this one der Alter, because s/he's in your camp but doesn't believe scripture teaches fiery hell, only 'eternal separation'.
No problem here.As for your view, we've been over this, the Jeremiah and Kings references to the Valley of Ge'Hinnom relate to the satanic idolatrous child sacrifices to which God expresses surprise and disgust.
Nonsense! I thought you believed in UR this verse contradicts UR. What God created He certainly can destroy but show me one verse, 2 or more would better, that states even one soul has been or will be destroyed in hell. Waiting.The fact the oral tradition developed this into a full-blown eschatological doctrine was precisely what Jesus took aim at in the Gospels. Jesus:
disabused the disciples of the notion that God would utterly destroy body and soul in Gehenna fire (Mt 10:28-31)
More nonsense. Reading your own assumptions/presuppositions into the text.taught that the wormy fire of Gehenna was necessary as 'salt' for all to reach mutual peace (he was, after all, the fulfilment of the brazen serpent type) - (see Mk 9:47-50)
Jesus did NOT warn the rich man he would end up in hell if... The rich man was already dead and in hell. And Abraham told the man that he could not get out. I wonder why Abraham did not tell the rich man he would eventually be saved? OBTW Do you know what sin(s) the rich man committed? Deuteronomy 15:7, Leviticus 25:35warned the Jewish rich man he would end up in Hades if he didn't stop shutting the gentile beggar out (Lk 16:19-31)
How is that an argument against hell?criticised and issued a dire warning to the Pharisees for their false teachings making proselytes 'sons of Gehenna' (Mt 23:15)
Jesus criticized many practices of the Jewish leaders but He never once criticized the, then existing, belief in hell. In fact, what Jesus taught about "hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm never dies,""eternal punishment,""outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" and a fate worse than death supported the then existing belief in hell. Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:43-48, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50, Matthew 18:6, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 26:24, Luke 10:12So yes, Jesus does refer to 'hell' a lot, and he's referencing the oral tradition that grew out of the Tanakh, but he's doing it to CORRECT errors of an idolatrous and pagan variety - the EXACT SAME errors that YOU and your ilk make right up to this very moment, der Alter.
Unlike you I don't bring indoctrinated assumptions/presupposition to the Bible. I did not grow up in the church I did not become a Christian until my mid-20s. I have questioned everything from day one.It boggles my mind that you can't or won't see it. I suspect you may be on the receiving end of the strong delusion, and believe me I take no joy in that
Okay, that wasn't adressing your post. I will do so now.My "moral sentiments"?
You didn't really address my post.
If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character? How is that any different?
Saint Steven said: ↑
That's quite a claim from someone who thinks God will torment his enemies in fire and brimstone for all eternity with no hope of escape. Somehow that's not immoral?
We can be pretty certain that no one would choose by their own free will to remain in what you call hell when they can by their own free will choose to leave. How long would it take you to decide?
Okay, that wasn't adressing your post. I will do so now.
Hell is not a torture chamber. To quote Moreland again: 'God is the most generous, loving, wonderful, attractive being in the cosmos. He has made us with free will and he has made us for a purpose: to relate lovingly to him and others... And if we fail over and over again to live for the purpose for which we were made-a purpose, the way, which would allow us to flourish more than living any other way-then God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've asked for all along our lives, which is separation from him... One more point it's wrong to think that God is simply a loving being, especially if you mean loving in the sense most Americans use the word today. Yes, God is a compassionate being, but he's also a jut, moral, and pure being. So God's decision is not based on modern American sentimentalism. This is one of the reasons why people have never had a problem with the idea of hell until modern times.'
My question was badly worded, but please respond. Jesus didn't see hell as immoral.
1) You shouldn't assume that every poster is American.Okay, that wasn't adressing your post. I will do so now.
Hell is not a torture chamber. To quote Moreland again: 'God is the most generous, loving, wonderful, attractive being in the cosmos. He has made us with free will and he has made us for a purpose: to relate lovingly to him and others... And if we fail over and over again to live for the purpose for which we were made-a purpose, the way, which would allow us to flourish more than living any other way-then God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've asked for all along our lives, which is separation from him... One more point it's wrong to think that God is simply a loving being, especially if you mean loving in the sense most Americans use the word today. Yes, God is a compassionate being, but he's also a jut, moral, and pure being. So God's decision is not based on modern American sentimentalism. This is one of the reasons why people have never had a problem with the idea of hell until modern times.'
My question was badly worded, but please respond. Jesus didn't see hell as immoral.
No problem here.
Nonsense! I thought you believed in UR this verse contradicts UR.
What God created He certainly can destroy but show me one verse, 2 or more would better, that states even one soul has been or will be destroyed in hell.
Jesus did NOT warn the rich man he would end up in hell if... The rich man was already dead and in hell.
I wonder why Abraham did not tell the rich man he would eventually be saved?
OBTW Do you know what sin(s) the rich man committed? Deuteronomy 15:7, Leviticus 25:35
How is that an argument against hell?
Jesus criticized many practices of the Jewish leaders but He never once criticized the, then existing, belief in hell.
In fact, what Jesus taught about "hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm never dies,"
"outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"
a fate worse than death supported the then existing belief in hell. Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:43-48, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50, Matthew 18:6, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 26:24, Luke 10:12
Unlike you I don't bring indoctrinated assumptions/presupposition to the Bible. I did not grow up in the church I did not become a Christian until my mid-20s. I have questioned everything from day one.
Don't skip too many beats, they call that cardiac arrest.I think my heart just skipped a beat! Much rejoicing in heaven.
Right about here is where you should quote what it is you want me to see. I'm not a mind reader.If you read the entire passage, where our Lord continues to reassure the disciples that the Father has every hair on our heads numbered, you'd understand that Jesus' treatment of the subject is essentially 'God can do it, but He won't coz He loves you too much.'
Assumption /presuppositions. Not one single verse says that.I can't, because there aren't, because the Biblical 'hell' as you quaintly refer to it, is for restoration not damnation.
Changing horses in the middle of the stream, before you said Jesus was warning the rich man. Google rich man and Lazarus and you will find dozens of different versions of what the story "really means." All of the ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.Jesus was warning the Pharisees that their exclusionary practices would land them in trouble with God.
So Abraham told the rich man he could not leave hell but somehow you think Rev 20:13 saves the day. The rich guy had never read Rev. and never would so Abraham, actually Jesus, left him with no hope.He didn't need to. We, OTOH, have Rev 20:13 which tells us Hades gives up its dead for judgment. And that's Hades the place not the hungry horse demon btw smh.
You didn't even read the verses I cited. They have nothing to do with any imaginary apotheosis. The rich man had committed actual sins Abraham/Jesus told him he could not leave the place where he was being tormented. Not in Luke or any other book.Thank you der Alter. As we know all those particulars in Deuteronomy find their apotheosis in Christ, who fulfills the law by putting the principle of 'love thy neighbour' into the heart. That's the sin in the Christian sense I suggest.
Explain?It's an argument that loveless hypocrisy may well backfire.
Rubbish. Jesus does no such thing. Bits and pieces of different verses thrown together out-of-context.He doesn't reject the existence of Gehenna, but instead reveals the truth that Gehenna is a place where God can smash you, but he won't because He loves you, and Gehenna fire is 'salt' to be exchanged in aid of peaceable relations amongst brethren.
Rubbish. You gave your unsupported opinion about worms.I just showed you how he deals with the undying worms.
What is your opinion?So is it fire or the darkness outside the party in the temple.
As long as UR-ites spread their false doctrine.I sometimes wonder if there could be a fate worse than prolonging this conversation!
Driving down a street of a small town in Texas, while in flight school, prior to going to Viet Nam.Congratulations, and I'm trying not to be flattered by the fact you think I grew up in church. And how were you saved, der Alter?
No kolasis does NOT always mean remedial punishment.FineLinen said:Kolasis aionion
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement)
The word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”..
Don't skip too many beats, they call that cardiac arrest.
Right about here is where you should quote what it is you want me to see. I'm not a mind reader.
Assumption /presuppositions. Not one single verse says that.
Changing horses in the middle of the stream, before you said Jesus was warning the rich man. Google rich man and Lazarus and you will find dozens of different versions of what the story "really means." All of the ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.
You didn't even read the verses I cited. They have nothing to do with any imaginary apotheosis.
Not in Luke or any other book.
The rich guy had never read Rev. and never would so Abraham, actually Jesus, left him with no hope.
Explain?
Rubbish. Jesus does no such thing. Bits and pieces of different verses thrown together out-of-context.
Rubbish. You gave your unsupported opinion about worms.
What is your opinion?
As long as UR-ites spread their false doctrine.
Driving down a street of a small town in Texas, while in flight school, prior to going to Viet Nam.
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