The fatal flaw of Universalism

Oldmantook · Jan 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Not working on the Sabbath was the written law, not the "oral law", as you call it.
You are no doubt familiar with the Ten Commandments.
Jesus readily admits to working on the Sabbath.

The Apostle Paul had a few choice words about the Ten Commandments. Assuming they were "engraved in letters on stone". See scripture below.

He calls the TCs the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death which has no glory now. Other than that, totally awesome. - lol

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Yes keeping the Sabbath is part of the 10 Commandments. But so is lying, stealing murder, adultery and having no other Gods, etc. To clarify, are you saying that the 10 Commandments are no longer applicable today? Not sure what you mean.
They brought condemnation and death because man was not able to keep them. Just because man was not able to keep them, it does not logically follow that they no longer exist. Instead what was glorious is now surpassed and has no comparison because what was previously written on tablets of stone - is now written on our hearts. Hallelujah!
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 2 Cor 3:3

Der Alte · Jan 20, 2020

Oldmantook said:
You know very well scholars differ in translation despite their best efforts. I refuted all of your citations and am still waiting for your response from my last post to you. Shall I wait or just ignore you?

That is correct some "scholars" try to contradict other scholars but they cannot contradict the evidence. For example I said in another post for the word "aionios" the scholars cited at least 35 historical sources in addition to the scriptures. To successfully rebut BDAG a scholar would have to prove that all the historical sources are misunderstood/mistranslated. Any takers?
Origen is the poster child for UR here is what he said about eternal. Without having the Greek text we know that Origen is talking about "aionios" because he quotes from John 4:7-14, the woman at the well.

(37) The Scriptures, therefore, are introductions, called the fountain of Jacob. Once they have now been accurately understood, one must go up from them to Jesus, that he may freely give us the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life.[1] ...
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[2]
[2] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 81–82). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.

And that is how scholars refer to historical sources to determine the meaning of ancient words. Note Origen says "eternal life" never perishes, 2x, remains, is not taken away and is not consumed.
ETA: This resource cost me about $60 from Logos.

Lazarus Short said:
Agreed...at that time. Later, as we all know, the Good News went out to the nations, or as you call them above, the "wild sheep." Nice try though..

Even the wild sheep must become part of the flock before the shepherd searches for them. They cannot be lost unless they are first found.

Oldmantook · Jan 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Thanks. Believe me, I've heard it all before. (yawn) Zzzz...

My journey on this subject started in 2008 when a Seventh Day Adventist asked me why I was only keeping nine of the Ten Commandments. I had never been asked that question before. I spent the next ten years debating he and other Sabbatarians. I'm pretty well settled in my mind on the subject.

Are you a Sabbatarian?

If this is upsetting, we should just drop it. I would rather maintain the relationship than attempt to win an argument. Thanks.

Nah not interested in winning any argument. I think (hope) we're having a cordial discussion. We can always agree to disagree. I try to keep the Sabbath but am not 7th Day Adventist. The Adventists along with the Jews follow the fixed Gregorian calendar. In my present understanding, I hold to the lunar-solar calendar whereby the Sabbath is determined by the new moon. To make matters more confusing, how one determines when the new moon occurs is a whole study in itself. My belief is that God put lights in the firmament per Gen 1:14 "for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years." God's calendar is instead fluid and not apprehended by staring at a fixed wall calendar but this is a whole other topic.
Perhaps that is why Dan 7:25 state this: He will speak against the Most High God, oppress the holy people of the Most High, and plan to change the appointed times and laws. The holy people will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half of a time.

Oldmantook · Jan 20, 2020

Der Alter said:
That is correct some "scholars" try to contradict other scholars but they cannot contradict the evidence. For example I said in another post for the word "aionios" the scholars cited at least 35 historical sources in addition to the scriptures. To successfully rebut BDAG a scholar would have to prove that all the historical sources are misunderstood/mistranslated. Any takers?

Is the BDAG your Bible?? The 3rd edition, p. 33 defines aionios as 1) pertaining to a long period of time; 2) time without beginning or end; 3) period of unending duration - under which it cites Matt 25:46 as a example of meaning "Very often of God's judgment...." So in other words your scholarly citation would have us believe that Matt 25:46 refers to God's judgment of punishment of unending duration. Hogwash! The first clause of Matt 25:46 refers to the sheep being allowed entrance to Jesus' rule and kingdom on the earth for aionion life = 1,000 years/millennial kingdom. The parallel construction of this verse dictates that aionion in the second clause of this verse must also be for the same period of time = 1,000 years. Not "unending duration" as your scholars whom you are so fond of quoting claim. BDAG are fallible fellows aren't they?

Der Alter said:
is the poster child for UR here is what he said about eternal.

Your poster child is Augustine, who was a poor student of the Greek; who leaves an ignominious legacy of promoting ECT. Not a good role model to trust in considering his lack of comprehension of the Greek.

Der Alter said:
Without having the Greek text we know that Origen is talking about "aionios" because he quotes from John 4:7-14, the woman at the well.

Der Alter said:
(37) The Scriptures, therefore, are introductions, called the fountain of Jacob. Once they have now been accurately understood, one must go up from them to Jesus, that he may freely give us the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life.[1] ...
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[2]
[2] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 81–82). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.
And that is how scholars refer to historical sources to determine the meaning of ancient words. Note Origen says "eternal life" never perishes, 2x, remains, is not taken away and is not consumed.

By now don't you realize that you continue to commit the a prior fallacy? In referencing the women at the well, you presume that aionios means forever which is where you commit your logical fallacy. As I explained to you earlier, Jesus along with his fellow Jews subscribed to the belief that the Messiah would come for an AGE of time to vanquish their enemies and set up an era of peace - not forever. I even cited from the Jewish Encyclopedia for your enlightenment but you simply ignored it. I can cite many other sources as well but I suspect you will continue to claim ignorance which is insufficient defense for your belief to say the least.

Der Alter said:
Even the wild sheep must become part of the flock before the shepherd searches for them. They cannot be lost unless they are first found.

Why do you quote two separate passages that have nothing to do with each other? Yes the wild sheep must first become part of the shepherd's flock, however that is certainly not the context of the passage in Lk 15 as this text states that the lost sheep was part of a flock of sheep numbering 100. The sheep who became lost was originally part of that flock. And the ninety nine who remained in the flock is referred to by Jesus as the ninety-nine just persons, who need no repentance (v.7). In other words, SAVED. The lost sheep is called a "sinner" who was originally a part of the other ninety-nine saved persons. This lost sheep who was formerly just and needed no repentance subsequently strayed and became a sinner but then repented and was saved from his lost condition.

Saint Steven · Jan 20, 2020

Brad Jersak - Some Questions To Answer Credits: Impactnations Podcast

http://www.impactnations.org/podcast Some of the topics included: What are the benefits of the cross? Is there such a thing as a "good person"? Is asking for God’s forgiveness a necessary part of turning to Christ? Was Jesus ever exclusive? To learn more about Brad Jersak, visit www.bradjersak.com

SkyWriting · Jan 20, 2020

Der Alter said:
That is a empty argument not evidence. As one ECF, Justin, said it is not punishment if the person is not conscious. You can't punish a dead body any more than you can a dead horse. Now if you could only quote some historical evidence which supports your view. Jesus is quoted as using the word for death 17 times. In Matthew 25:46 if Jesus meant "death" that is what He would have said.

It's not "punishment" in the least. It is cause and effect.
You don't want to be with God for eternity?
Then it doesn't happen. Cause and effect.
There is no point to punishment. If there was any point to
punishment then christians would torture murderers.

HISTORICAL
There is no "punishment" in the old testament or the new testament.
There is cause and effect. But even "an eye for an eye" was renounced in scripture.
No "punishment" exists.

Der Alte · Jan 20, 2020

Oldmantook said:
Is the BDAG your Bible?? The 3rd edition, p. 33 defines aionios as 1) pertaining to a long period of time; 2) time without beginning or end; 3) period of unending duration - under which it cites Matt 25:46 as a example of meaning "Very often of God's judgment...." So in other words your scholarly citation would have us believe that Matt 25:46 refers to God's judgment of punishment of unending duration. Hogwash! The first clause of Matt 25:46 refers to the sheep being allowed entrance to Jesus' rule and kingdom on the earth for aionion life = 1,000 years/millennial kingdom. The parallel construction of this verse dictates that aionion in the second clause of this verse must also be for the same period of time = 1,000 years. Not "unending duration" as your scholars whom you are so fond of quoting claim. BDAG are fallible fellows aren't they?

Your comment about BDAG being my Bible is rubbish! Unlike you and other UR-ites I believe in trying to find the best definition of words. I deal with other languages daily. My wife is Korean, I speak some Korean on a daily basis. A few days ago she was watching a Korean news program and she said "I don't know what 'tahn haek' means." I looked at the TV Korean news people were talking about an American news program which showed a picture of Trump with a sub heading "Trump Impeachment" underneath that was 트럼프 탄핵 which I could read. Trump's name written phonetically in Korean 트럼프 and the word "tahn haek." So I told my wife 탄핵 means "Trump impeachment."
Yesterday two German ladies came to my Bible study. One spoke English, one didn't. So I had to speak English and German.
A lot of empty words but no, zero, none evidence. I concede that some Jews believed in and were waiting for a millenium but I know beyond all doubt not all Jews held that belief. E.g. why were the Sadducees sad? Your unsupported opinion is not evidence against anything I said.
I am still waiting for credible, verifiable, historical evidence that BDAG is wrong vs. your assumptions.

Your poster child is Augustine, who was a poor student of the Greek; who leaves an ignominious legacy of promoting ECT. Not a good role model to trust in considering his lack of comprehension of the Greek.

Wrong! I have never read nor quoted Augustine. Next false assumption? But someone in this forum was throwing Origen in my face about how he was supposedly the best Bible exegete who ever lived. That is why I bought Origen's "Commentary of John." for about $60, to read for myself what Origen actually said.

By now don't you realize that you continue to commit the a prior fallacy? In referencing the women at the well, you presume that aionios means forever which is where you commit your logical fallacy. As I explained to you earlier, Jesus along with his fellow Jews subscribed to the belief that the Messiah would come for an AGE of time to vanquish their enemies and set up an era of peace - not forever. I even cited from the Jewish Encyclopedia for your enlightenment but you simply ignored it. I can cite many other sources as well but I suspect you will continue to claim ignorance which is insufficient defense for your belief to say the least.

Wrong! I assumed nothing. I provided evidence from the UR poster boy, Origen, that "aionios life" never perishes, 2x, remains, is not taken away and is not consumed. I'm not the one displaying ignorance. Don't you just hate it when your assumptions/presuppositions are proven wrong with historical evidence.

Why do you quote two separate passages that have nothing to do with each other? Yes the wild sheep must first become part of the shepherd's flock, however that is certainly not the context of the passage in Lk 15 as this text states that the lost sheep was part of a flock of sheep numbering 100. The sheep who became lost was originally part of that flock. And the ninety nine who remained in the flock is referred to by Jesus as the ninety-nine just persons, who need no repentance (v.7). In other words, SAVED. The lost sheep is called a "sinner" who was originally a part of the other ninety-nine saved persons. This lost sheep who was formerly just and needed no repentance subsequently strayed and became a sinner but then repented and was saved from his lost condition.

You are merely repeating what I already said. My point was the one lost sheep parable is not a proof text for proselytizing the unsaved.

Der Alte · Jan 20, 2020

SkyWriting said:
It's not "punishment" in the least. It is cause and effect.
You don't want to be with God for eternity?
Then it doesn't happen. Cause and effect.
There is no point to punishment. If there was any point to
punishment then christians would torture murderers.
HISTORICAL
There is no "punishment" in the old testament or the new testament.
There is cause and effect. But even "an eye for an eye" was renounced in scripture.
No "punishment" exists.

Thank you for this unsupported opinion.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment [kolasis]: but the righteous into life eternal.

See my discussion of the word "aionios" above.

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.—Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Blue highlights=historical sources.

SkyWriting · Jan 20, 2020

Der Alter said:
Thank you for this unsupported opinion.

Then it would have influenced Jewish law or Jesus teachings.
It's missing in any form from both. That's very good support.

In your post illustration "the martyrdom of Jesus"
which we agree was irreversible. But not infinite.

And we know it all ends with the new world and hell and death
together being done away with in the Lake of fire.

I can't fix that chastising and torture both define the same word.

Der Alte · Jan 20, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Then it would have influenced Jewish law or Jesus teachings.
It's missing in any form from both. That's very good support.

Nonsequiter.

In your post illustration "the martyrdom of Jesus"
which we agree was irreversible. But not infinite.

I have no idea how this addresses anything in my post.

And we know it all ends with the new world and hell and death
together being done away with in the Lake of fire.
I can't fix that chastising and torture both define the same word.

Chastising means being punished for some wrong doing it may involve the infliction of pain. Torture is inflicting pain to coerce or for sadistic pleasure it is sometimes used to punish. Millions of Jews were tortured and killed during WWII simply because they were Jews they had committed no offenses which merited punishment.

Saint Steven · Jan 20, 2020

Oldmantook said:
...To clarify, are you saying that the 10 Commandments are no longer applicable today? ...

The Ten Commandments are a subset of the law and defined as the old covenant. We are neither under the old covenant, nor under the law. And specifically, the Ten Commandments are a set of Ten. It's an all or nothing proposition. You can't choose which ones you want and dismiss the rest. The inclusion of the Sabbath commandment means it is not for us. The Ten Commandments were given to the Israelites alone through Moses. Anyway, God has given us a conscience to understand right from wrong.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

SkyWriting · Jan 21, 2020

Der Alter said:
Chastising means being punished for some wrong doing it may involve the infliction of pain.

Nope.

SkyWriting · Jan 21, 2020

Oldmantook said:
Yes keeping the Sabbath is part of the 10 Commandments. But so is lying, stealing murder, adultery and having no other Gods, etc. To clarify, are you saying that the 10 Commandments are no longer applicable today?

That is the New Covenant:

◄ 2 Corinthians 3 ►

Ministers of a New Covenant

1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you? 2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

What Does the Bible Say About New Covenant?

SkyWriting · Jan 21, 2020

Der Alter said:
Thank you for this unsupported opinion.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment [kolasis]: but the righteous into life eternal.

There is no parallel in religion or humanity that torture is the correct response for sin or crime. When you sin, there are consequences that are irreversible.
These are the "punishments" referred to. Also, "Hell" is not in the future. "Hell" is referred to in the active tense. Sinners are currently in Hell until judgment day. They are tormented by their choice.

Perfected love casts out tormenting fear (2851 /kólasis)

FineLinen · Jan 21, 2020

SkyWriting said:
There is no parallel in religion or humanity that torture is the correct response for sin or crime. When you sin, there are consequences that are irreversible.
These are the "punishments" referred to. Also, "Hell" is not in the future. "Hell" is referred to in the active tense. Sinners are currently in Hell until judgment day. They are tormented by their choice.

Perfected love casts out tormenting fear (2851 /kólasis)

Dear Sky: In our Father's World, NOTHING is irreversible. He is the One who changes and transforms the lowest of the low by and through His glorious judgements!

The Inescapable Love Of God

Thomas Talbott- The Inescapable Love of God - 2nd Edition

“…Nothing can be lost that is not first owned. Just as a parent is compelled by civil law to be responsible for his family and his property, so the Creator --by His own divine law–in compelled to take care of the children He has created. And that means not only caring for the good children, but for the bad ones and lost ones as well. So the word lost came to be for Mrs. Smith (Hannah W. Smith), a term of greatest comfort. If a person is a “lost sinner” it only means that he is temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns him. The Shepherd is bound by all duties of ownership to go after all those who are lost until they are found.” -Catherine Marshall-

FineLinen · Jan 21, 2020

Hillsage said:
I loved AP Adams. I have a 300 page book with all of his monthly teachings which started in March of 1885 with a subscription fee of "One Dollar per Annum". I found it 30 (?) years ago and was amazed at the depth of revelation and understanding which I received in reading his work.

'The Purpose of Evil' was his Volume 1 No 8 issue.

Dear Sage: brother A.P. has been a remarkable servant of our Father. His diligence in the word of the Lord is what I hope to have some glad day. I too marvel at the depth and understanding of this man of God!

The Writings of A. P. Adams

A.P. Adams

Shrewd Manager · Jan 21, 2020

Der Alter said:
[Sulphur has been found to have no curative or preserving properties despite what the Greeks thought.]

You're big on the findings of modern medicine. Bet I can find some studies that say otherwise.

Der Alter said:
Personal testimony, everything in red, not supported by scripture is not compelling.

It's not nonsense heterodox personal testimony der Alter, it is a thumbnail summary of the relevant parts of the story.

Der Alter said:
The lake of fire is called the second death three times. There is never any mention of resurrection or release from it. But tormented day and night for ever is mentioned.

If they're tormented forever, it's not death, is it? In fact, death is thrown into the lake of fire, so ask yourself this - what can kill death? The answer dear Watson is elementary: LIFE. As in 'In him was life', 'the way the truth and the life', 'God of the living', and on it goes. The fire is the presence of God to destroy sin and death.

FineLinen · Jan 21, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Sky: In our Father's World, NOTHING is irreversible. He is the One who changes and transforms the lowest of the low by and through His glorious judgements!

The Inescapable Love Of God

Thomas Talbott- The Inescapable Love of God - 2nd Edition

“…Nothing can be lost that is not first owned. Just as a parent is compelled by civil law to be responsible for his family and his property, so the Creator --by His own divine law–in compelled to take care of the children He has created. And that means not only caring for the good children, but for the bad ones and lost ones as well. So the word lost came to be for Mrs. Smith (Hannah W. Smith), a term of greatest comfort. If a person is a “lost sinner” it only means that he is temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns him. The Shepherd is bound by all duties of ownership to go after all those who are lost until they are found.” -Catherine Marshall-

Dear Sky: Our word for today is > >

"For with God nothing shall be impossible."

Nothing = adynateo =

Can NOT be done.

FineLinen · Jan 21, 2020

The fatal flaw of the Restitution of the all is the most wonderful flaw of all flaws.

The fact that God saves His especially is glorious news.

The fact that He is the Saviour of all mankind, not just part of mankind, will change the scope of your limited vision.

Father saves & reconciles all or nothing.

FineLinen · Jan 21, 2020

SkyWriting said:
There is no parallel in religion or humanity that torture is the correct response for sin or crime. When you sin, there are consequences that are irreversible.
These are the "punishments" referred to. Also, "Hell" is not in the future. "Hell" is referred to in the active tense. Sinners are currently in Hell until judgment day. They are tormented by their choice.

Perfected love casts out tormenting fear (2851 /kólasis)

Dear Sky: Our choices as wee wills are ultimately eclipsed by the Will of all wills.

“For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope.”

The creature= ktisis=

The sum/ aggregate of things created.

Was made subject= hypotassō=

Arranged under/ to subordinate.

To put in subjection.

To vanity= mataiotēs=

Devoid of truth/ perverse/ depraved.

Not willingly= ou hekōn=

Involuntary.

Of one’s own will/ accord.

By reason of Him= dia hypotassō

The Author & Finisher of all.

Hope= elpis=

Expectation of good.

Joyful and confident expectation of salvation from the Author of hope.

The fatal flaw of Universalism

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Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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