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The fatal flaw of Universalism

FineLinen

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You cannot be serious!

If God Could Save Everyone - Would He? by Dr. Stephen E. Jones

Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin

The Biblical Teaching of Hell by Dr. Ernest L. Martin

Age and the Greek Words Aion and Aionios by Mark Sanguinetti

The Lake of Fire by L. Ray Smith

The Recognition of Universal Reconciliation by Dr. Ernest L. Martin

A Short History of Universal Reconciliation by Dr. Stephen E. Jones

Videos: "Is Hell Forever?" An interview of Louis Abbott by Gary Amirault

Videos: Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin

Videos: Tentmaker Ministries by Gary and Michelle Amirault


THE DOCTRINE OF EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT IS A MISTAKE AND TURNS GOD FROM A TRUE FATHER INTO A TYRANT - AIONIOS IS NEVER "EVERLASTING WITHOUT END" BUT "AGE-LASTING"
 
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Lazarus Short

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I can't save anyone, even if I could I doubt I could muster up the mercy of our Lord.

You can't muster up the mercy of God - no one can. His great Mercy is just one way His ways and thoughts are far, far above our own. With that said, don't you think tossing the wicked into Hell is an awfully poor plan? He already stated in His comments about that pagan entity to whom people were passing their children through the fire - that such a thing had never entered His Heart or Mind. Do you not see that that statement excludes Hell as a solution? No, He has a better Plan than that, a most glorious Plan.
 
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Charlie24

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The mercy of our Lord?
But don't you claim that he will burn his enemies forever with no hope of escape?
What's merciful about that?

What if God would have said no, I'm not sending my perfect Son to die for those heathens who have sinned against me and laugh about it?

We would all go to hell!

But He did have mercy and He does have mercy.

He has made a way for all to escape! None of us deserve this mercy!
 
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Charlie24

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Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit, the One who inspired the writings of God's Word, would allow us and all those before us to be lied to about an eternal hell?

Do you really believe that God would allow that?

The scripture says that God places His Word above His name, but He will allow a lie in His word? No, He will not!
 
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Well even if our latinised friend doesn't appreciate these pearls Laz, I certainly do. Thanks for helping to fill a few gaps in my understanding of that parable/ prophecy. Your interpretation checks against the details in the story (purple linen, 5 brothers, Eliezer allusions). I agree that the water that Richie craves is the eau de vie that is also part of the Spirit's encouragements in Rev 22:17 to the overcomer.

So Yehudah is left in the doldrums of Sheol/ Hades to contemplate where it went wrong, meantime poor nations inherit the faith of the Kingdom and flourish into Christendom. Excellent.

I don't mind accepting there's also a 'midrashic' interpretation to illustrate the 'it is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom' teaching. But ppl need to understand that the story doesn't end there. Rev 22:14-15 teach that Hades will give up its dead and they're cast into the lake of fire. Which brings it back onto the road to God's ultimate plan for creation.

Point is simply that nobody remains in 'hell' interminably, the 'gates of heaven' are always open and the 'water of life' is a free gift on a standing offer.
 
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Saint Steven

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None of us deserve this mercy!
This is the fatal flaw of Damnationism. Everyone deserves mercy. That's what love does.

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 
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Saint Steven

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The scripture says that God places His Word above His name, but He will allow a lie in His word? No, He will not!
There you go again calling a translation of the bible the Word of God. ("His Word")
 
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Der Alte

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By selectively quoting scripture anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to.
Were the children being offered to Molech being punished for their sins? Or were the children being offered as a sacrifice to a pagan god for the sins of the parents?
The full context is God did not command and it never entered His mind that Israel should build high places to the pagan god Baal or sacrifice their children to the pagan god Molech.

Jeremiah 32:35
(35) And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
This verse has nothing to do with how God will punish the unrighteous. Let us remember that God punished thousands by fire, including men, women, old, young, children and infants, when He sent down fire from God in heaven and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and other cities.
The end result was exactly the same for the people in Sodom etc. and the children which were being sacrificed to the pagan god Molech. They all died a horrible, agonizing death by fire.
 
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Charlie24

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There you go again calling a translation of the bible the Word of God. ("His Word")

If God allowed one lie, how many more did he allow?

I have heard you guys say countless times that the translators lied to us.

What other lies did God allow in His Word?

Now I don't know if I can believe the Bible at all.

I hope I don't become an atheist over this!
 
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Saint Steven

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Point is simply that nobody remains in 'hell' interminably, the 'gates of heaven' are always open and the 'water of life' is a free gift on a standing offer.
That's a quotable quote. (pardon the redundant redundancy - lol)

The gates of hell will not prevail against the Bride of Christ, while the gates of heaven are always open. That adds up to Universal Reconciliation. Come on in, the water's fine.
 
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Charlie24

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There you go again calling a translation of the bible the Word of God. ("His Word")

Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
 
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Der Alte

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Google "Lazarus and the rich man" and you will get dozens and dozens of different versions "what the story really means." So which one do we pick as the right one? I choose the version which is found in the writings of the early church. Every ECF who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Yes, I really believe that we are lied to about "eternal hell." That is why I am here - to dispel the fear of Hell, and belief in its existence. Pardon me, but why do you think God allows a lot of bad things? Why does He tolerate idols such as Santa Claus and statues of dead saints? I could mention a LOT of evil/bad things, but they go on...and on.

Charlie, the Bible, at least in the original Hebrew and Greek, is the best preserved book we have from antiquity, and by a big margin. Yet, as I have said, your English Bible and mine are not, in the strictest sense, His Word. They are a translation.
 
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Saint Steven

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You are making the Bible something it was never intended to be.
Do you have a relationship with a book or with the God that the book tells us about?

What would become of you if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day and then sat down and said to God, "Okay, I'm ready to listen to you now. Talk to me.", what would happen? Would he leave you alone, or speak to you audibly for the first time? Would that be worth it, or would you prefer to keep your library instead?

The problem with Evangelicalism is that they have made a god out of a book. Don't get me wrong, I love the Bible, but I understand that it is not a replacement for my relationship with the living God. Ultimately, I don't need a Bible, all I need is Him.
 
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Always good to hear from you der Alter, and feel free to present some material that hasn't been addressed in past threads.

Just on that point, Jesus reveals the oral tradition which apparently taught a hell of eternal conscious torment was a little off-base.

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another. (Mk 9:47-50)

So we see here the warnings and threats customarily associated with hell. But then Jesus takes hellfire and says 'everyone' will experience it, and moreover, it's 'salting' which is 'good' for you and necessary. What?! He's 'subverting the dominant paradigm'! He's talking the purifying power of holy fire and righteous judgment. The use of 'salt' to produce harmonious relations.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows (Mt 10:27-30)

What's he saying here? Don't be afraid of man or the devil, fear God who can destroy your soul, but don't be a birdbrain, you're of incalculable value to Him, He's not gonna do that.

Again, Jesus starts with the assumption and then reveals God's truth is higher, that He's far more gracious and merciful than we can ever anticipate.

Hope this clears things up for you der Alter, and remember the beautiful feet of those who carry the gospel are not necessarily pedicured.
 
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Saint Steven

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Charlie, the Bible, at least in the original Hebrew and Greek, is the best preserved book we have from antiquity, and by a big margin. Yet, as I have said, your English Bible and mine are not, in the strictest sense, His Word. They are a translation.
Well said. Thanks.
 
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Charlie24

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So you are saying the English version is a translation that is not inspired by the Holy Spirit?
 
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The gates of hell will not prevail against the Bride of Christ, while the gates of heaven are always open. That adds up to Universal Reconciliation. Come on in, the water's fine.

Lol, not bad, maybe a bit more refining in the fire?
 
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Saint Steven

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Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Do you actually think that is a reference to our translation of the Bible? (nope)

Psalm 138:2
I will bow down toward your holy temple
and will praise your name
for your unfailing love and your faithfulness,
for you have so exalted your solemn decree
that it surpasses your fame.
 
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Charlie24

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Lord have mercy!

God's word is the only truth there is, and you don't need it?

I am appalled at your disrespect for God's Word, while calling yourself a Christian.

I am finished with this!
 
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