The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says this about the prophet Jesus:
"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."

Those who refuse to hear the words of Jesus will be destroyed.
This is written after Christ's death, and resurrection.

Also, the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world until the end.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24:14).

So it is not another gospel.

Bible Highlighter said:

By what you said so far: I have gotten the impression that you believe the words of Jesus are for a different people group and not for believers today. If this is so, then why does Jesus say this?

"He that... receiveth not my words, ...the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).

For you, these words are to be tossed aside if you believe Jesus's earthly ministry was something exclusively to a certain people group in the past alone.

Three years of the disciples training by Jesus would go down the drain.

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Jesus's earthly ministry was for the Jews, the circumcised. After the nation rejected him, he raised Paul to reach out to us.

You are correct when you quoted Paul, his words are the words of the ascended Christ for us.

But when you read about what Peter and the other believe during the 4 Gospels and Acts, resist the temptation to anticipate revelation.

Don't read Paul 1 Cor 15:1-4, for example, into John 3:16, which almost every Christian who is not a dispensationalist does. Instead understand John 3:16 thru John himself in John 20:31

31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Guojing said:

Jesus's earthly ministry was for the Jews, the circumcised. After the nation rejected him, he raised Paul to reach out to us.

You are correct when you quoted Paul, his words are the words of the ascended Christ for us.

But when you read about what Peter and the other believe during the 4 Gospels and Acts, resist the temptation to anticipate revelation.

Don't read Paul 1 Cor 15:1-4, for example, into John 3:16, which almost every Christian who is not a dispensationalist does. Instead understand John 3:16 thru John himself in John 20:31

31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

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Again, the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to all the world and then the end shall come. See Matthew 24:14. Also, Jesus said to His disciples, "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." (Matthew 10:14-15). In other words, the New Testament was written by Christ's followers; So we cannot reject what they say about Christ (like the 4 gospels) otherwise Jesus said judgment will be upon us.

The gospel of the kingdom of God:

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching
the gospel of the kingdom of God," (Mark 1:14).

When the gospel is preached, a part of that message can include the truth that a person must be born again, and if this is the case, then one is automatically preaching the kingdom of God (as a result).

3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
(John 3:3-8).

After Christ was risen, this is our reality or truth of being in the kingdom of God:

"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Romans 14:17).

The Kingdom of God continues in us. This is what we continue to preach until the end. For the gospel of the kingdom is preached until the end of the world (See Matthew 24:14).

There is the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of Christ.
Right now we are in the Kingdom of Christ.
But that does not mean we will remain in the Kingdom of Christ before Christ gives His kingdom back to the Kingdom of God.

For Christ will give back his kingdom to God one day (1 Corinthians 15:24).
But before that happens, Christ will send forth His angels and they will gather out of His Kingdom all who offend (make others to sin), and who work iniquity (lawlessness) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (See: Matthew 13:41-42). So if a believer justifies sin in this life, they are not going to remain in Christ's kingdom; They will be cast out by His angels into the Lake of Fire.

Bible Highlighter said:

Again, the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to all the world and then the end shall come. See Matthew 24:14. Also, Jesus said to His disciples, "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." (Matthew 10:14-15). In other words, the New Testament was written by Christ's followers; So we cannot reject what they say about Christ (like the 4 gospels) otherwise Jesus said judgment will be upon us.

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That will happen during the Tribulation.

Bible Highlighter said:

Daniel 9 talks about the consummation or the End.

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Oh yes. A typical dispy answer. You should ask yourself "The end of what?" The period that Daniel 9 covers is to the coming of the Messiah, the things which were determined to happen during His ministry, His being cut off, and the results of the rejection and crucfying him by the Jews. The comsumation, as I see it was the complete end of the Jewish System of worship and government. The Jews gave away their rights to government when Herod Archelaus was so bad that the Jews begged Caesar to take direct rule. For a while Caesar refused but eventually gave was and deposed Archrlaus and and exiled him to Vienne, a chief city of the Gauls. Josephus. I don't know if thet was Vienna in Austria, or Vienne in France.

The Jews confirmed that when they said to Pilate "We have no king but Caesar".

The Landowner took away the vineyard and gave it to others, that is the body of Christian believers, which is now The Termple of the Living God.

Al Touthentop said:

You cannot eliminate the meaning of one scripture through the use of another.

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Of course not. But you can shine a light on it's likly meaning which is all I have done.

Al Touthentop said:

The word used in 1:3 is ταχυ - quickly, and it is inappropriate to ignore its meaning because of another unrelated scripture. Had John and the Holy Spirit wanted to contradict the plain meaning of that word in that context, they would have provided a sign that the reader could interpret.

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He did give us a sign and that sign is the very verse you refer me to at the end of Revelation.

""Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." Revelation 22:12

Because we know as we read this that there has been some 2000 years since He made the statement that He comes quickly - we can know that when He says quickly He does not mean a short time as you are suggesting.

It's a matter of letting the scriptures interpret the scriptures. The 2nd Peter passage is only one scripture that helps us do that.

Al Touthentop said:

This taking of unrelated passages and trying to change the meaning of another passage is using the word to fight against itself rather than to harmonize.

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No this taking "related passages" to help interpret the meaning is using the word to make sure we see what the Lord means when He uses it elsewhere.

Al Touthentop said:

That word is used at the end of Revelation also because the short time frame was considered important to convey. That is why people repeat things when they speak and write. It's how we stress important concepts.

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That word is used at the end of Revelation helps us see just what a "short time frame" might be to the Lord. In the case of His statement at the end of Revelation - that short time frame is at least 2000 years.

Al Touthentop said:

That is why people repeat things when they speak and write. It's how we stress important concepts.

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Exactly so.

And those grafted in might be cut out for unbelief or God's Way ? (etc unobedience? ). Those cut out once, might be grafted back in because of belief, or even just God's Way?

Guojing said:

Once you realized this, Ephesians 2 and 3 take on totally new meaning, and you as a former Gentile, will really praise God the Father for his wonderful plan. And you will not be upset that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews in the 4 Gospels.

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I have heard that nonsense before. Have you said that on another board some years ago? Summary: The Old testament is not for Christians, The gospels are not for Christians, Hebrews, letters of Peter James and Revelation. Are you suggesting we tear those out of our bibles?

The Old Testament, TORAH, Prophets, Psalms is for Ekklesia... oh, GOOD, that's TODAY!

HardHead said:

This part, I find, is interesting. How does this idea work? Do you see that, according to dispensational theology, heaven is to be brought to earth as in it is 'here' vs. 'out there' somewhere?

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Unfortunately when posting a lot on this forum one can easily looses track of what post you are referring to especially after many pages have flown by.

But I'll take a crack at the last part of your question.

I do not consider Heaven to be "out there somewhere" but rather simply in another dimension.

When Jesus was taken "up" to Heaven, for instance, He did not really go up like a helium balloon and then continue in a straight line like a rocket ship until He ended up on the throne of God just outside the far side of the universe.

I know this is probably more than you asked about - but Jesus did not "walk through walls" after His ressurection as some claim. The Holy Spirit did not "arrive" somewhere He was not already in when He "fell" on the disciples in the upper room.

We are talking about changing dimensions for Jesus and relational changes for His Spirit etc. IMO.

God is everywhere present at all times and without division in His attributes or substance. He is Spirit.

I.e. - God is "infinite" and not "finite".

I remember one class I taught many years ago when a particular rather vocal lady who had not really consider anything different than what she had been told as a youth took exception to my telling the class that Heaven wasn't really "up". I mean - she really took exception to my saying that.

My reply to her was that if Heaven was really up (as when Jesus was taken up into Heaven) then people in Australia would have to stand on their heads when they lifted up holy hands to God as the scriptures tell us to do.

But the point is that Heaven (or the New Jerusalem for that matter) "coming down" simply means that the other dimension (or dimensions perhaps) are available to us on earth just as they were to Jesus after the resurrection when He suddenly appeared in their midst or when to His Holy Spirit "came" at Pentecost or when the Holy Spirit "landed" on Jesus at His baptism.

We can well be seated on the throne with Jesus (as the scriptures tell us that we are as believers) and ruling with Him in the "Kingdom of God" in this age (taking authority etc.) and still remain so reigning with Him when the Kingdom of God comes to the earth for 1000 years.

Now that's a long answer to something you may not be asking. But point is that there are many ways to look at these things and black and white isn't necessarily the only one.

Unless the Lord tarries for another couple of thousand years we may soon see through the glass with a bit more clarity.

I for one can hardly wait.

His student said:

""Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." Revelation 22:12

Because we know as we read this that there has been some 2000 years since He made the statement that He comes quickly - we can know that when He says quickly He does not mean a short time as you are suggesting.

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Circular logic. What you should actually be thinking, rather than that Jesus doesn't say what he means, is that your idea of what "coming" means might be in error. The churches in Asia were all destroyed by the 3rd century just as the Revelation prophecy predicted if the members of those churches didn't heed the instructions given.

Jesus came in wrath in AD 70 to destroy Jerusalem. He didn't have to physically "come" to do this just as the Father didn't have to "come" when he "came" to bring wrath on Israel through Assyria as written in the Old Testament. If we interpret this other ways, as if God didn't fulfill prophecy in the exact time and manner specified, then we're rejecting his word.

It's a matter of letting the scriptures interpret the scriptures. The 2nd Peter passage is only one scripture that helps us do that.

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No, it doesn't. It is written in the context of the time frame in which God answers prayer and was written to a completely different group of people at a different time. It has nothing at all to do with the passages in Revelation.

No this taking "related passages" to help interpret the meaning is using the word to make sure we see what the Lord means when He uses it elsewhere.

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In this case, it's just a convenient exercise to obfuscate and ignore the meaning of the original context. It's terrible exegesis.

That word is used at the end of Revelation helps us see just what a "short time frame" might be to the Lord. In the case of His statement at the end of Revelation - that short time frame is at least 2000 years.

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Well then, the people reading it 2000 years ago were not the subjects of the letter then. And if that's what you really think, then you must think that God was playing some sort of grand joke rather than warning them of actual events. What a mean God it would be indeed to get people worked up about things that had no bearing on them.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

And those grafted in might be cut out for unbelief or God's Way ? (etc unobedience? ). Those cut out once, might be grafted back in because of belief, or even just God's Way?

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I think those passages in Romans repudiate the "once saved always saved" doctrine. Paul is telling us as those who have been newly grafted into "Israel" can, by thinking we've got it made, suffer the same peril as those Jews who refused to place their faith in the promised Messiah. He is also pointing out that the new Israel contains both Jews and Gentiles.

HardHead said:

This part, I find, is interesting. How does this idea work?

Do you see that, according to dispensational theology, heaven is to be brought to earth as in it is 'here' vs. 'out there' somewhere?

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Again, stick with Scripture. Added information is not needed, and as seen is often not true and not useful.

For example, not "according to" anyone's 'theology', but according to Scripture, avoids the fights, debates, and misconceptions and accusations , regardless of validity.
Saying one of many groups is wrong about something is done every day,
while even agreeing they are right about some things also might be said truly.

Some dispensationalists (or someone labelled that) MIGHT think one way about heaven,
while another thinks very differently.

So, then, who is right?

Stick with Scripture. What does Scripture say.

Even in one's OWN GROUP (someone is born in, or joins later),
test everything - things believed all their life might be in error (and usually is).

Guojing said:

Don't read Paul 1 Cor 15:1-4, for example, into John 3:16, which almost every Christian who is not a dispensationalist does. Instead understand John 3:16 thru John himself in John 20:31

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So we can just put our own meaning into the text. Jesus didn't actually die for the Gentiles too, just the Jews. Then later he said, "OK, I guess I better go ahead and change the plan and allow some Gentiles in even though this was never the plan.

So when he said, "And if I am lifted from the earth I will draw all peoples to myself" and John comments that this was in reference to the manner in which he would die, he really wasn't meaning "all peoples" he meant "just the Jews (for now)."

Al Touthentop said:

Jesus came in wrath in AD 70 to destroy Jerusalem.

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Isolated this one statement. It is obviously false.

Al Touthentop said:

I think those passages in Romans repudiate the "once saved always saved" doctrine. Paul is telling us as those who have been newly grafted into "Israel" can, by thinking we've got it made, suffer the same peril as those Jews who refused to place their faith in the promised Messiah. He is also pointing out that the new Israel contains both Jews and Gentiles.

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All Scripture in Total Complete Harmony, Each and Every Part, has nothing to do with a doctrine like that. (man made or demon inspired). Most all the world is tricked though, including Christians too often.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Isolated this one statement. It is obviously false.

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How is it false? In fact in Matt. 24 he says this is what he is going to do. He says his coming 'on the clouds, in great glory' will be witnessed by the people of that generation. It occurred some 40 years after he spoke the words. Josephus tells us that the Christians all made it out.

If we interpret this as his "second coming" or the judgement day, we have to argue with what Jesus said about it. Why would we do that?

Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

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Saying that ALL those things didn't happen within the period of the generation he was addressing, is to say that Jesus was in error.