THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[Oldmantook]

They believe sinners will go through the lake of fire, spend time there to cleanse them of their sins--like dross they say---then they will come out of the lake of fire to spend eternity with Jesus. This includes Satan and Hitler--everyone. I've asked them to give a verse that states anyone comes out of the lake of fire and, of course they can't, they say it has to be pieced together. What it boils down to, though they deny it, is that God tortures sinners until they repent, whither they mean it or not. God will save everyone, even if it's against their will.

Instead of asking others, why don't you study scripture for yourself and see what it actually says instead believing what others have taught you what it says. Perhaps you ought to read Rev 22:14-15 and try to figure it out what it means.

 

[mmksparbud]

Instead of asking others, why don't you study scripture for yourself and see what it actually says instead believing what others have taught you what it says. Perhaps you ought to read Rev 22:14-15 and try to figure it out what it means.

I have---I left God for 30 years and experimented with all sorts of stuff. Including the occult and had my own set of Tarot cards. I studied everything---that is why I am SDA---they teach what I believe the word of God says. And I know universalism is not in the word of God and I've debated them enough times to know what they believe. All those in Rev 22:15 will have no place with those in Rev 22:14. It does not mean that all those in verse 15 will be alongside the New Jerusalem.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Maybe you need to take your own advice!

 

[Oldmantook]

Nonsense. Universalism is a false teaching not based in scripture. God's salvation is indeed conditional. If we do not accept those conditions before the 2nd coming we do not have salvation and are lost. It is as simple as that. The teaching of Universalism leads people to believe they can live like the devil, everything will be ok because I will get a second change after JESUS returns. There is no second chances at the second coming as His reward is with him * REVELATION 22:12. The definition of Universalism was posted in the OP from wiki which contradicts conditional salvation before the 2nd coming, claiming all men will be saved. This however is the opposite of what the scriptures teach in MATTHEW 7:15-27; HEBREWS 10:26-31 and HEBREWS 6:4-8. BTW I also do not think the Catholic doctrine of eternal torment is biblical either.

BTW the verses you've cited as proof-texts don't serve to support your view. If you bothered to peek at the Greek, you would have found out that the participles in those two Hebrews passages are in the present tense. Thus the reason that God can't forgive them is that they are willfully continuing in sin. Since ongoing sin evidences an absence of proper repentance, there can be no forgiveness. Similarly, in the Matt 7 passage, Jesus himself give his reason as to why he tells them to depart because they practice lawlessness. In other words, their lifestyle instead of holy obedience was characterized by practicing lawlessness, Again, no evidence of repentance and without repentance, there is no forgiveness.

 

[FineLinen]

For full context, this is the conclusion of Romans 8, most of which deals with what it means to be in Christ Jesus.

See specifically Romans 8:9-17 but really the whole thing.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Pay attention to....

Us & them.

Us all.

The elect predestined saints.

The firstborn called according to His purpose.

The whole creation.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Your reply demonstrates that you have not even studied the subject. You believe Wiki for theology matters? Oh brother. I suggest you study further before demonstrating your lack of knowledge regarding this subject. I already told you that Christian Universalism a.k.a the doctrine of apocatastasis acknowledges salvation as conditional; yet you ignore it to suit your own inaccurate definition.

Yea not really, your reply sadly only shows you your misreading the scriptures. Where does it say anywhere in the scriptures (post me a single scripture) those who reject Christ get a second chance at the second coming when every case has been decided for death or eternal life? It doesn't. There is no scripture. If you have no scripture for your belief what are you building your house on dear friend?

If we do not accept Gods conditions of salvation before the 2nd coming we do not have salvation and are lost. It is as simple as that. The teaching of Universalism leads people to believe they can live like the devil, everything will be ok because I will get a second change after JESUS returns. There is no second chances at the second coming as His reward is with him * REVELATION 22:12.

The definition of Universalism was posted in the OP from wiki which contradicts conditional salvation before the 2nd coming, claiming all men will be saved. This however is the opposite of what the scriptures teach in MATTHEW 7:15-27; HEBREWS 10:26-31 and HEBREWS 6:4-8.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

BTW the verses you've cited as proof-texts don't serve to support your view. If you bothered to peek at the Greek, you would have found out that the participles in those two Hebrews passages are in the present tense. Thus the reason that God can't forgive them is that they are willfully continuing in sin. Since ongoing sin evidences an absence of proper repentance, there can be no forgiveness. Similarly, in the Matt 7 passage, Jesus himself give his reason as to why he tells them to depart because they practice lawlessness. In other words, their lifestyle instead of holy obedience was characterized by practicing lawlessness, Again, no evidence of repentance and without repentance, there is no forgiveness.

What is it that you have posted here changes the meaning of what I have shared with you in HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8 and MATTHEW 7:12-27? - Yep nothing. I agree that the reason why God cannot forgive them is that they are continuing in unrepentant sin. I was never arguing that they were not. So what is it that your arguing? It is the result of unrepentant sin that makes all of the people outlined in these scriptures lost. Matthew 7 is in context to the 2nd coming which is supporting enverything that has been shared with you here. What have you provided that disputes what I have shared with you? Yep nothing. The scripture shared with you do indeed support my view and it seems your having difficulties dealing with them. This should be a blessing to you dear friend.

May you receive Gods Word and be blessed. Ignoring them does not make them disappear.

 

[Paulus59]

Hi LoveGodsWord,

Universalism is definitely unbiblical and a downright false teaching! Anyway I copied & pasted this from GotQuestions on the topic of universalism.

**************************************************

Question: "Is universalism / universal salvation biblical?"

Answer: Universalism is the belief that everyone will be saved. There are many people today who hold to universal salvation and believe that all people eventually end up in heaven. Perhaps it is the thought of men and women living a life of eternal torment in hell that causes some to reject the teaching of Scripture on this issue. For some it is an over-emphasis on the love and compassion of God—and the neglect of the righteousness and justice of God—that leads them to believe God will have mercy on every living soul. But the Scriptures do teach that some people will spend eternity in hell.

First of all, the Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever. Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.”

How does one avoid this unquenchable fire? Many people believe that all roads—all religions and beliefs—lead to heaven, or they consider that God is so full of love and mercy that He will allow all people into heaven. God is certainly full of love and mercy; it was these qualities that led Him to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die on the cross for us. Jesus Christ is the exclusive door that leads to an eternity in heaven. Acts 4:12 says, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If we choose to reject God’s Son, we do not meet the requirements for salvation (John 3:16, 18, 36).

With verses such as these, it becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

 

[Oldmantook]

I have---I left God for 30 years and experimented with all sorts of stuff. Including the occult and had my own set of Tarot cards. I studied everything---that is why I am SDA---they teach what I believe the word of God says. And I know universalism is not in the word of God and I've debated them enough times to know what they believe. All those in Rev 22:15 will have no place with those in Rev 22:14. It does not mean that all those in verse 15 will be alongside the New Jerusalem.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Maybe you need to take your own advice!

I didn't ask for your personal history as that is neither here nor there. Instead I referred you to Rev 22:14-15 since you boldly proclaimed that no one has ever showed you scripture that those in the lake of fire ever come out of that place. Did you even bother to read and understand it? Thus I'll quiz you with some simple questions.
1. Who is in the city (New Jerusalem)?
2. Who is outside the city?
3. Where is the lake of fire.
4. Have those in the city washed their robes?
5. Have those outside the city washed their robes?
6. Who has the right to the tree of life and enters into the city by its gates?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi LoveGodsWord,

Universalism is definitely unbiblical and a downright false teaching! Anyway I copied & pasted this from GotQuestions on the topic of universalism.

**************************************************

Question: "Is universalism / universal salvation biblical?"

Answer: Universalism is the belief that everyone will be saved. There are many people today who hold to universal salvation and believe that all people eventually end up in heaven. Perhaps it is the thought of men and women living a life of eternal torment in hell that causes some to reject the teaching of Scripture on this issue. For some it is an over-emphasis on the love and compassion of God—and the neglect of the righteousness and justice of God—that leads them to believe God will have mercy on every living soul. But the Scriptures do teach that some people will spend eternity in hell.

First of all, the Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever. Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.”

How does one avoid this unquenchable fire? Many people believe that all roads—all religions and beliefs—lead to heaven, or they consider that God is so full of love and mercy that He will allow all people into heaven. God is certainly full of love and mercy; it was these qualities that led Him to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die on the cross for us. Jesus Christ is the exclusive door that leads to an eternity in heaven. Acts 4:12 says, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If we choose to reject God’s Son, we do not meet the requirements for salvation (John 3:16, 18, 36).

With verses such as these, it becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

Yep I agree Paul, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us and scriptures. How dangerous is this teaching of Universalism? I believe it leads people to think oh well we can live life like the devil today, after all we will all get a second chance latter. How sad will these people be only to find out JESUS rejects them and they lose their everlasting life which JESUS purchased for them with his own blood?

 

[mmksparbud]

BTW the verses you've cited as proof-texts don't serve to support your view. If you bothered to peek at the Greek, you would have found out that the participles in those two Hebrews passages are in the present tense. Thus the reason that God can't forgive them is that they are willfully continuing in sin. Since ongoing sin evidences an absence of proper repentance, there can be no forgiveness. Similarly, in the Matt 7 passage, Jesus himself give his reason as to why he tells them to depart because they practice lawlessness. In other words, their lifestyle instead of holy obedience was characterized by practicing lawlessness, Again, no evidence of repentance and without repentance, there is no forgiveness.

There is no sin in the new earth|!! All sin, all sinners have been done away with. Spare me the baloney of what the Greek says---been there countless times with your co-horst. I'm 69--spent many years with my head in the books. And I know without repentance there is no forgiveness---those that went into the lake of fire never repented and thus were not covered by the blood of Jesus and were not protected from His Holy fire.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Oldmantook]

What is it that you have posted here changes the meaning of HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8 and MATTHEW 7:12-27? - Yep nothing. I agree that the reason why God cannot forgive them is that they are continuing in unrepentant sin. I was never arguing that they were not. So what is it that your arguing? It is the result of unrepentant sin that makes all of the people outlined in these scriptures lost. Matthew 7 is in context to the 2nd coming which is supporting enverything that has been shared with you here. What have you provided that disputes what I have shared with you? Yep nothing.

You cited it as proof for your view against universalism. Yet is has nothing whatsoever to do with universalism. FYI the doctrine of apocatastasis claims that all sinners end up in the lake of fire where they eventually repent and God then forgives and reconciles with them. The claim you inaccurately made by those verses you cited is that God does not or cannot forgive. I simply demonstrated that God couldn't forgive them in Matt 7 and Heb 6 & 10 because they REFUSED TO REPENT. Comprende?

 

[mmksparbud]

I didn't ask for your personal history as that is neither here nor there. Instead I referred you to Rev 22:14-15 since you boldly proclaimed that no one has ever showed you scripture that those in the lake of fire ever come out of that place. Did you even bother to read and understand it? Thus I'll quiz you with some simple questions.
1. Who is in the city (New Jerusalem)?
2. Who is outside the city?
3. Where is the lake of fire.
4. Have those in the city washed their robes?
5. Have those outside the city washed their robes?
6. Who has the right to the tree of life and enters into the city by its gates?

Didn't give you much of a personal history---however, you accused me of not knowing my Greek, nor studying for myself but only following what others say. I am saying---THAT IS NOT THE CASE!
I know what Rev says. Apparently, you do not. So I suggest you do a little more research. You need those questions answered, I do not, I already know them.
And I know they refuse to repent--that is why they are in the lake of fire!

 

[Oldmantook]

There is no sin in the new earth|!! All sin, all sinners have been done away with. Spare me the baloney of what the Greek says---been there countless times with your co-horst. I'm 69--spent many years with my head in the books. And I know without repentance there is no forgiveness---those that went into the lake of fire never repented and thus were not covered by the blood of Jesus and were not protected from His Holy fire.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

What are you talking about? Matt 7, Heb 6 & 10 do not take place on the new earth. Be careful about citing your age as it may be getting the best of you.

 

[Oldmantook]

Didn't give you much of a personal history---however, you accused me of not knowing my Greek, nor studying for myself but only following what others say. I am saying---THAT IS NOT THE CASE!
I know what Rev says. Apparently, you do not. So I suggest you do a little more research. You need those questions answered, I do not, I already know them.
And I know they refuse to repent--that is why they are in the lake of fire!

You refused to answer my simple questions? Why is that? Since you already know the answers, why don't you enlighten the rest of us??

 

[mmksparbud]

What are you talking about? Matt 7, Heb 6 & 10 do not take place on the new earth. Be careful about citing your age as it may be getting the best of you.

I never mentioned those verses! I only mentioned Rev. You're not that far behind me, only 9 years younger. I've seen dementia hit at a much younger age! I think that is enough on the personal level, don't you? We're both a little long in the tooth.

 

[mmksparbud]

You refused to answer my simple questions? Why is that? Since you already know the answers, why don't you enlighten the rest of us??

My 10 year old nephew knows the answers to that---if you do not---do some more research. I am not doing it for you!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You cited it as proof for your view against universalism. Yet is has nothing whatsoever to do with universalism. FYI the doctrine of apocatastasis claims that all sinners end up in the lake of fire where they eventually repent and God then forgives and reconciles with them. The claim you inaccurately made by those verses you cited is that God does not or cannot forgive. I simply demonstrated that God couldn't forgive them in Matt 7 and Heb 6 & 10 because they REFUSED TO REPENT. Comprende?

Dear friend, those scriptures have everthing to do in context to what I have been sharing with you in regards to Universalism. It seems you simply do not want to acknowledge it though. I can understand why. Let me slow it down a little so it will help the discussion though. Perhaps if I share these scriptures with you more openly it will help the conversation.

REVELATION 22:12, And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1. REV 22:12 was quoted to show that Judgement is finished before the second coming and God's rewards are with him. No more second chances.

MATTHEW 7:22-23 [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

2. MATT 7:22-23 was quoted to show that at the second coming JESUS pronounces to those who were not following to depart from him. No announcements of second chances. The only other time JESUS tells the wicked to depart in Mathew is in MATTHEW 25:41 Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. This is a similar story to MATTHEW 7:22-23 (see MATTHEW 25:31-41) -Yep no second chances at the second coming here.

HEBREWS 10:26-31 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

3. HEBREWS 10:26-31 was posted to show that God's judgements are given at the second coming for all those who continue in known unrepentant sin. These are God's "ADVERSARIES" who he is taking vengence one at the second coming -YEP NO MORE SECOND CHANCES AT THE SECOND COMING! IT IS TOO LATE!

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

4. HEB 6:4-8 was posted to show that not only is there no chances after the second coming but we are warned not to fall away from the faith before the second coming and if we continue in known unrepentant sin we will receive the judgements of God. If there was a second chance at the second coming there would be no warning not to fall away and receive God's judgements!

Directly relevant I would say to Universalism wouldn't you?

Your reply shows you do not understand these scriptures dear friend. This is why I posted earlier, if we do not accept Gods conditions of salvation before the 2nd coming we do not have salvation and are lost. It is as simple as that. That is why the conditional posts where presented on page one.

The teaching of Universalism leads people to believe they can live like the devil, everything will be ok because we will get a second change after JESUS returns. There is no second chances at the second coming as His reward is with him * REVELATION 22:12.

Hope this is more helpful.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Pay attention to....

Us & them.

Us all.

The elect predestined saints.

The firstborn called according to His purpose.

The whole creation.

Pay attention to....

Us & them.

I believe you’re referring to where you highlighted at Romans 8:22-23? If so, my interpretation in context is that everyone in this world is in pain, still including the saints, since the verb for “not only they but ourselves also” is “groan within ourselves” in the midst of a corrupt and fallen world, and I think that’s fairly answered by the next few sentences of consolation.

But the fact that all of creation is in pain doesn’t mean all of creation finds solace in those following sentences.

Us all.

I believe you’re referring to Romans 8:32?

I don’t know if I can fairly parse this, because “us all” being used rather than “all” could be used to imply there is a “they all” along the lines of wheat/tares or child of God/child of the devil.

That’s intuitive, not anything I’d stake a claim to prove.

The elect predestined saints.

In the context of Romans 8:9 how do you say this is universal?

The firstborn called according to His purpose.

This is Jesus Christ but I genuinely don’t see what you want me to notice here.

The whole creation.

Is dying in the flesh. No?

 

[Oldmantook]

My 10 year old nephew knows the answers to that---if you do not---do some more research. I am not doing it for you!

Your silence on the answers speaks volumes. You wanted to discuss; so go right ahead and answer!

 

[Oldmantook]

Dear friend, those scriptures have everthing to do in context to what I have been sharing with you in regards to Universalism. It seems you simply do not want to acknowledge it though. I can understand why. Let me slow it down a little so it will help the discussion though. Perhaps if you show it in a differnt way is will help the conversation.

REVELATION 22:12, And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1. REV 22:12 was quoted to show that Judgement is finished before the second coming no more second chances.

MATTHEW 7:22-23 [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
[23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

2. MATT 7:22-23 was quoted to show that at the second coming JESUS pronounces to those who were not following to depart from him

HEBREWS 10:26-31 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

3. HEBREWS 10:26-31 was posted to show that God's judgements are given at the second coming for all those who continue in known unrepentant sin. These are God's "ADVERSARIES" who he is taking vengence one at the second coming -YEP NO MORE SECOND CHANCES AT THE SECOND COMING! IT IS TOO LATE!

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

4. HEBREWS 6:4-8 was posted to show that not only is there no chances after the second coming but we are warned not to fall away from the faith before the second coming and if we continue in known unrepentant sin we will receive the judgements of God. If there was a second chance at the second coming there would be no warning not to fall away and receive God's judgements!

Directly relevant I would say to Universalism wouldn't you?

Your reply shows you do not understand these scriptures dear friend. This is why I posted earlier, if we do not accept Gods conditions of salvation before the 2nd coming we do not have salvation and are lost. It is as simple as that. That is why the conditional posts where presented on page one.

The teaching of Universalism leads people to believe they can live like the devil, everything will be ok because we will get a second change after JESUS returns. There is no second chances at the second coming as His reward is with him * REVELATION 22:12.

Hope this is more helpful.

Again you've missed the point. I already agreed that salvation is conditional so why you belabor the point is a mystery to me. We both agree that sinners are judged at the 2nd coming. Where you mis-characterize universalism is that "they can live like the devil." Living like the devil will lead to ending up in the lake of fire where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." I don't know of anyone who would like to be in a place where the will be weeping/gnashing of teeth as the LOF is a place of punishment. It's not a stay at the Hilton. So the germane question is, are those sinners in the LOF forever tormented there and never reconciled to God? I presume your answer is yes and mine is no. Since you answer in the affirmative why do answer in direct opposition to God's stated will?

And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, firstborn out from the dead, so that He might be holding preeminence in all things, because all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens. Col 1:18-20

God's stated purpose in this passage is to RECONCILE ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF. Your view is impossible to reconcile with God's purpose statement as stated here because in your view, those in the LOF are eternally punished and remain forever unreconciled to God. All scripture passages in terms of mankind's future destiny have to be interpreted light of God's stated will/purpose - not the other way around as you attempt to do. What God wills, he is able to accomplish - despite your protestation.