THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
The scriptures your providing are written for God's people and have application to God's people not the wicked.

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

God speaks of "the sons of humanity", not believers only as you would change His word. Shouldn't changing His word worry you? I think i'll take God at His word, instead of your alteration of it:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

FineLinen · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
I posted:

It's a misrepresentation of universalism to state, as you do above, that it "does not hold anyone accountable for sin". Wrong, wrong, wrong!

Unfortunately the gambling one does not read or comprehend well.

150 Reasons

150 Reasons For Believing In The Final Salvation Of All Mankind

Seven Large Myths

7 Myths About Universalism

A Summary Of The Divine Plan

SUMMARY OF

Shrewd Manager · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Your response...

Annihilationism is not endless. I do not know what your talking about here sorry.

Well annihilationism is also known as conditionalism, is it not? And you're saying dead forever. So I'm asking if that's absolute conditionalism.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") –properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. ??????? (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

A drunkard can be destroyed by alcohol and later recover. So what if the wicked are "destroyed". What Love Omnipotent destroys He can restore. Jesus said, Destroy this temple and in 3 days i will raise it up (Jn.2:19, paraphrase). King Neb's soul was so destroyed by the Saviour of all mankind that he ate grass like an animal for 7 years until God restored him by destroying his destruction. So can you not see that the destruction of which you speak is no - proof - for the endless annihilation Hitler job on anyone. And why would Love Crucified want to sadistically torment (Rev.14:11; 20:10) anyone He intended to blot out of existence for eternity? Your theology makes - no - sense!

Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

Annihilation places huge doubt on Universalism

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Cut and paste repitition again dear friend without addressing the content of posts and scriptures shared with you again.

(1) 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 - you post here you have not addressed in
post # 1363; post # 1364; post # 1365; post # 1366; post # 1367.
All you provided above is a cut and paste repitition of your earlier post without addressing any or my other posts from which you provide a few different translation which do not effect the meaning of the Greek to which the above posts prove in detail. I am still waiting for a response to the above posts to which are ignored in favour of a repeated cut and paste of the same content you provided that is already addressed above. I have already agreed that the process of destruction to aionias is not everlsating as the greek rendering of the scanned script already provided is...

"Who the penalty shall suffer (context to the wicked and God's vengence) destruction eternal from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength" (see below scanned image)

It is the destruction that is eternal not the act of destruction that many of the eternal burning hell people believe. So no you have not provided any harmony to what UNIVERSALISM teaches at all to what I have been sharing with you.

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In ROMANS 5:18-19 you try and make claims that these scriptures are talking about JESUS saving the unrepentant wicked. ROMANS 5:18-19 is teachings that all men have sinned and condemned in sin but that through the act of God's grace and justice and judgement in sending his own son to die on the cross for our sins ALL who accept the gift of Gods' grace by faith in Christ can be reconcilled to God and receive God's forgiveness. The MANY here are the saved. Note it does not say ALL will be saved and there is no scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will be saved anywhere in these scriptures. Your just repeating yourself without addressing anything shared with you. This has already been addressed in many times in this thread with one of the most recent in post # 1429 linked. Your simply cutting and pasting the same posts from websites and repeating yourself while ignoring what is shared with you again.

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Your claims to LAMANTATION 3 being to the unrepentant wicked has been proven false already by showing the context you leave out of the text you use to try and claim reconciliation of the unrepentant wicked. LAMANTATIONS 3 scripture context you leave out show that the chapter is about ISRAEL that has sinned against God and retuned to God in repentance and that reconciliation of ISRAEL (God's people) takes place after repentance.

Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

Your just repeating yourself and your same cut and paste without addressing this post addressing your claims here multiple time. The last more detailed reply was posted in post # 1392 linked here. Your just repeating yourself again with continious cut and past without responding to the scripture that prove context that your application of them is in error.

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No seriously dear friend everything you have posted here has been addressed with scripture in detail showing that what you are claiming in regards to UNIVERSALISM and all the wicked being saved after the second coming is in error as the scriptures provided are divorced from context and are not references to the unrepentant wicked but to the repentant saved before the second coming. Now I have repeatedly asked you and those who believe and teach Universalism where is the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will be receive eternal life after the second coming? - No scripture has been provided. Yet the scriptures clearly teach what you do not have scripture for and that is that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and are a part of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29 who do not receive life, neither are they written in the lambs book of life *REVELATION 20:12-15. Because of unrepentant sin and the rejection of God's grace though the blood of God's dear son that pays the penalty for their sins they pay the penalty for their own sins and receive God's justice and judgment for their own sins and the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do dispite to the spirit of Gods grace *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39. This is clearly shown in the scripture. The wicked at the resurrection of condemnation receive the wages of their own sins that JESUS offered to bare for them to reconcile them to God which is the second death *REVELATION 21:7-8.

Hope this helpd dear friend. All your doing here is repeating cutting and pasting your posts without addressing any of my responses to you. Did you want to address the content of my posts please?

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Well annihilationism is also known as conditionalism, is it not? And you're saying dead forever. So I'm asking if that's absolute conditionalism.

God's salvation is indeeed conditional on believing and following his Word. This is what the scriptures teach (scripture support provided here). If we do not believe and follow God's Word we do not receive God's salvation or his promises.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
Your post 1420 didn't refute anything i said here in the following, so my point stands:

Mt.1:21 refers to "His people" who will be saved from their sins. That's "Israel" (Mt.2:6), the nation referred to in the Old Testament, including all those who died in their sins, e.g. King Saul, Judas, the Pharisees, etc. This is truly "good news", not the bad news of Calvinism, SDAism, etc.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Nonsense. Post 1430 linked does indeed refute your claims

Read the scripture. MATTHEW 1:21 says And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: FOR HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.

The key word here is HIS PEOPLE. This is to the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked. Happy to add to this though.

God's ISRAEL according to the new covenant are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. ISRAEL according to the new covenant are no longer those in the flesh but in the Spirit *ROMANS 9:6-8. There is no more Jew or greek all are one in Christ *GALATIANS 3:28-29; If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27 by faith in God's Word. God's ISRAEL according to the scriptures in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

The scriptures shown in MATTHEW 1:21 are in reference to the saved not the wicked and they do not say anywhere that the wicked will be saved at the second coming. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..)

Why you cannot see this I do not know.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
Faith is required for salvation, as you say. So when we learn from Scripture that all will be saved, faith is therefore implied. So your point about faith is meaningless in regards to Rom.5:18-19 supporting universal salvation. And, again, you haven't addressed all of this, but ignored it for the most part:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

In ROMANS 5:18-19 you try and make claims that these scriptures are talking about JESUS saving the unrepentant wicked. ROMANS 5:18-19 is teachings that all men have sinned and condemned in sin but that through the act of God's grace and justice and judgement in sending his own son to die on the cross for our sins ALL who accept the gift of Gods' grace by faith in Christ can be reconcilled to God and receive God's forgiveness. The MANY here are the saved. Note it does not say ALL will be saved and there is no scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will be saved anywhere in these scriptures. Your just repeating yourself without addressing anything shared with you. This has already been addressed in many times in this thread with one of the most recent in post # 1429 linked. Your simply cutting and pasting the same posts from websites and repeating yourself while ignoring what is shared with you again.

Scripture does not teach that all will be saved. The scriptures teach that many are called and few are chosen *MATTHEW 22:14. The saved are the few that take the narrow path and the many the wide. The wide path leads to destruction while the narrow to life * MATTHEW 7:13-14. According to the scriptures unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and receive their punishment for sin by receiving the second death in the lake of fire *REVELATION 21:78 because they rejected the gift of God's dear son and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy think doing dispte to the Spirit of God's grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39.

According to the scripture God's salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word. (Detailed scripture support here linked). How you can support your cut and paste that you have posted all through this thread that claims....

ClementofA said:
"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

Your quote above is beyond me and against nearly every scripture in the entire bible. Your whole post and claims here are brought to nothing with the simple scripture that say "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" *ROMANS 14:23 and that "we are saved by grace through faith" EPHESIANS 2:8 and "without faith is it impossible to please him for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" *HEBREWS 11:6

ROMANS 3:28 Therefore we conclude that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH without the deeds of the law.

What is it that you are teaching dear friend? It is not the Word of God here. If you have no faith you have no salvation because whatsoever is not of faith is sin and we are saved by Gods grace through faith. Salvation is a free gift of God's grace. We hold out the hand of faith to receive it.

Please address my posts as I do with yours instaed of ignoring them and cutting and pasting the same content dear friend if you wish to have a discussion with me please.

Hope this helps.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
If you don't have the time to read carefully, study & address posts refuting your viewpoint, then maybe this discussion is not for you.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Let's be clear. It is not my view that the unrepentant wicked will be saved at the time of the second coming. This is in response to your query: "Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved?"

Also i would point out that Col.1:20 says peace has been made already through the blood of the cross:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-738/

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

There is a parallel here:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Read more: What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

More repitition cut and paste of the same post over and over dear friend already addressed elsewhere throughout this thread. Do you have anything new to share? None of the scriptures you provide here teach the wicked will be saved. 1 CORINTHIANS 15:28; COLOSSIANS 1:16 and COLOSSIANS 1:20 are in regards to Christs sacrifice for our sins and the reconciliation of the sins of the world. Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach or imply that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life. The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9. See also these scriptures here linked. The reconcilliation in COLOSSIANS 1:20 is to all those who believe and follow His Word which are the condtions of God's grace. Please dear friend try reponding to the content of the posts shared with you here.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
And my post was a reply to that:

No more sacrifice for sins applies to those forgiven as well:

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)

The meaning is not that if they sin they can't be forgiven. They can (1 Jn.1:9). The same applies to those of v.26. So your argument is a failure.

The meaning of no more sacrifice for sin is that Christ's sacrifice ended all sacrifices for sin. There are no more. There will be no more.

His sacrifice is sufficient to take away everyone's sins & that is exactly what it will do:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Taking away the world's sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.

It was not a reply it was a post you simply repeated your same cut and paste that did not address any of the content in the post and scriptures shared with you in post # 1426 linked. What is it that you think you addressed in that post? The post you are quoting from proves what you are claiming in this post is false. No one has said to you anywhere that if someone sins they cannot be forgiven. This is a strawman argument no one has ever made. If I have made no claims that if someone sins they cannot be forgiven why pretent that I have? This is not honest. HEBREWS 10:26-39 was posted simply to show the fate of those who continue in known unrepentant sin nothing more and nothing less and the linked post here demonstrates a detailed response through the scriptures to show the context you ignore here in relation to the unrepentant wicked receiving God's judgements after the second coming.

HEBREWS 10:10-14 is in reference and CONTEXT to HEBREWS 10:1-9 which is comparing the SHADOW laws in sin offerings and burnt offereings for forgiveness of sin from the OLD COVENANT *HEBREWS 10:1-9 that was daily to Christs perfect sacrifice HEBREWS 10:10-14 which only had to be offered once for all the sins of all mankind past, present and into the future (all time) *HEBREWS 10:10-14 as being all sufficient to those who believe and follow God's Word. The meaning here is no more animal sacrifices for sin are required because Chrsits death on the cross is our complete sacrifice everytime sin is committed to those who are "sanctified" * HEBREWS 10:29; once and for all *HEBREWS 10:10 and for all time *HEBREWS 10:14.

Moving on to HEBREWS 10:23-27 we come to the "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" to "HOLD FAST THE PROFESSION OF OUR FAITH" *HEBREWS 10:23 NOT TO " SIN WILLFULLY AFTER RECEIVING AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD

[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

*HEBREWS 10:26; then to HEBREWS 10:29 [29], Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?

The WARNING here in context is to "BELIEVERS" (THOSE WHO ARE SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT - CHRIST SACRIFICE) not to "SIN WILLFULLY" after receiving a KNOWLEDGE of the truth *HEBREWS 10:26 continuing to HEBREWS 10:29 of those who BELIEVERS who "SIN WILLFULLY" [29], Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he (those who sin willfully) be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which HE WAS SANCTIFIED ἁγιάζω, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?

CONTEXT: here to this WARNING to BELIEVERS (If WE v26) is to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS that SIN WILLFULLY after receiveing a knowledge of the truth. HEBREWS 10:29 stating their punishment after being SANCTIFIED ἁΓΙΆΖΩ, (past tense to was)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 37: sanctified ἁγιάζω MEANS TO PURIFY BY EXPIATION, FREE FROM THE GUILT OF SIN : 1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 5:26; Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 10:29; Hebrews 13:12; Hebrews 2:11 (equivalent to כִּפֶר, Exodus 29:33, 36); cf. Pfleiderer, Paulinismus, p. 340ff (English translation 2:68f).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to sanctify From hagios; TO MAKE HOLY, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate -- hallow, be holy, sanctify.

Note what is shown here in HEBREWS 10:26-29?

1. Warning to believers (if we believers) sin willfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth v26
2. How much more greater will their punishment be v29
3. They were (past tense) made holy purified from the guilt of sin (sanctified) by the blood of the covenant v29
4. By sinning willfully count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing v29
5. Had received God's Spirit but grieved and insulted it v29.

This warning is referring to those who fall into apostasy is τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς χάριτος ἐνυβρίσας, “and insult the spirit of grace”. The spirit of grace is the distinctive gift of Christian times. To have blasphemed this gracious Spirit, who brings the assurance of God’s presence and pardon, and gifts suited to each believer, is to renounce all part in things spiritual. HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 2:4; EPHESIANS 4:7

The CONTEXT of v29 clearly shows that PAUL is addressing the BELIEVERS. The section above concludes with...

[35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward.
[36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
[38], Now the just shall live by faith: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK [Believers going back to willful sin see v26-29], my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
[39], But WE ARE NOT OF THEM WHO DRAW BACK TO PERDITION; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

................

CONCLUSION: HEBREWS 10:26-39 is talking about those who return back to sin after they have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and reject it in order to live in unrepentant sin. By doing so they reject the gift of Gods dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of God's grace and for them there remains no more sacrifice for sin because they have rejected God's Word in order to continue in sin. There is only one outcome according to these scriptures and that is [27] A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES. This will be a greater punishment as they were given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and chose to turn away from it and reject God and his Word v29. The wicked here are then said to receive God's vengence in v30 which 2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9 defines as destruction.

Hope this helps.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
You falsely claimed i disregarded the context. So i replied:

Clearly i regarded the context & proved my argument from the context:

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

Not at all dear friend you disregared context. All you have done here is repeat the same post without addressing anything shared with you.

Why do you not address the content of my post if you disagree?

I posted earlier here showing the context of 1 CORINTHIANS 3:15 is to the "BROTHERS" in Christ v1 who are babes in Christ and his Word v2-3; fightings over who is of PAUL and APOLLOS v4-5. Then about PAUL and APOLLOS sharing the Gospel (the Word of God) in planting the seed (Word) and watering to give the increase to the church v6-8. Then we are all to be labourers together with Christ in sharing the gospel whose foundation is JESUS Christ v9-11.

Then we have PAUL stating whoever builds on this foundation (CHRIST) v11 in sharing the Gospel v12 his work in sharing the gospel will be manifest in the day of fire. Meaning those who are saved will not receive the destruction of the wicked (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9). Leads us to v14 that says If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward the foundation built upon here is to v11 Christ. Now context is established. This leads us to v15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. This is in reference to the work of sharing the gospel.

So no dear friend, this scripture does not teach anywhere that it is is reference to the wicked being saved at the second coming the context shows that it is a message to the believers, the context is to sharing Gods' Word and those being addressed as being babes in Gods' Word not sharing the gospel message correctly and pointing them to the foundation of the gospel which is JESUS CHRIST.

Now I am claiming here that you are disregarding CONTEXT again here and have provided the context you leave out above that shows that the scriptures here are talking about the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked. If you disagree with the above why not show me where you beleive I am wrong? You can believe as you wish dear friend. This was only posted as a help to you. All you have done in your reponse here is to repeat yourself without addressing this post.

Hope this helps.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

FineLinen said:
Why is dear dear dear Fine not surprised? Perhaps your broen cisterns are broken (busted) beyond repair! Do not despair woman of chance, you can count on dear dear Fine to do your assignment for you. Your grade on your assignment however is FAIL.

We should not point people to the teachings of men over the Word of God. For me, he must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. Who am I that he should choose me out of the world? I am no one but he is all. If I did not believe him I would not know him. What can I do without him? He is love and now I love. I follow him now because I love him who first loved me. I do not judge you but His Word will judge us because they are there for all to see. All are welcome to see and hear God's Word, however many are called but few are chosen. Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils but His Word is promises to deliver us and it is here we must find safety. We ought to obey God rather than man. God is love and he that dwells in love dwells in God. No one finds life dear Fine in the broken cisterns of polluted waters provided by the gambling lady of second chances when there is no second chance after the second coming. His reward is with him dear friend, ready of not he will come as a theif to steal his saints and a robber to take the life of the unrepentant wicked. Tick tock goes the clock who will heat his Voice (the Word) and get ready to go out and meet the bridegroom? Only those who have enough oil for their lamp. How can we find our ways if our lamp goes out when the road is dark and narrow?

Do you know these scriptures dear Fine? If you do what do you think they mean? The only failure dear Fine is in those who do not believe and follow God's Word. This is the true fail and one that where only weeping and gnashing of teeth is found according to the scriptures.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word dear friend.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear "Clem": You must stand in line (remember social distancing) while we wait and wait for a response lol.

You must be behind in your reading dear Fine. This was alread adressed some time ago in post # 1495 linked here

Hope this is helpful

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
Strawman. What are you implying with that question, your ignorance of what universalism teaches & yet another misrepresentation of it to add to your ever growing list of misrepresentations? The same misrepresentation of yours that occurs in the beginning of the first post of this thread.
Nonsense.

I don't see the justice in an endless punishment for the sins of a relatively momentary lifetime. That makes no sense at all. Not only does your annihilationism (endless oblivion) theory make a mockery of Love Omnipotent's justice, it also turns Love Crucified's Love into a carton of milk that expires in no time at all. You have Him putting the wicked into torments until they cease to exist & never bringing them back. That's sadistic, pointless and to the detriment of God's glory.

None of His blood shed for all is wasted, but is used to save the world. After all, that is what He is, the Saviour of the world, the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29). That He does by His blood & bearing sin, not destroying the sinner out of existence & out of His love, joy & peace forever. No, Love Almighty does not hold neverending grudges, hate and bitterness against His created children. That would be unholy & sinful.

Even in this lifetime people get 2nd chances. Perhaps many more chances than that. Love Omnipotent's love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. He has an infinite number of chances to give. He says to forgive not just 7 times, but 70 X 7. He says love covers a multitude of sins. That's the Creator of the Scriptures & the Father God that i believe in.

I wonder how many chances Saul, who became Paul, had. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. It sounds like he was resisting the Holy Spirit. Surely, as a serial killer of Christians, he had heard the gospel from those Christians he persecuted. Yet he refused to believe, again and again. It took a personal appearance from Christ Himself to save this man, whom scripture calls "the worst of sinners".

Jesus disciple Thomas is another example of getting at least a second chance. He refused to believe the Lord had risen, even after all that Jesus had taught him & the testimony of other disciples who had seen him. Like many atheists today he said he would refuse to believe until he saw Him & put his hand inside Him.

King David is another example of being given at least a second chance, if not many more. After all the Lord had done for him, including miracles, he committed premeditated adultery and murder.

Earlier you said universalism says people get a second chance. Now you're saying these people are "forced to repent". Which is it, a second "chance" or "forced to repent"?

So you can't see that the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace as any better than the God Who sadistically tortures MANY for all eternity? Wow. I'm speechless.

You say the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace is "not the God of love". And your Hitler nuking out of existence forever because His love expired like a carton of milk is "the God of love". Unbelievable. Is that actually what SDA's teach in their church meetings & publications, etc?
Ye do err. See above.

More repitition already addressed dear friend. Do you have anthying new to add instead of cutting and pasting your same old posts over and over that have already been addressed? All the above scriptures have already been addressed. What they have in common is that they are all to those who repented of their sins and returned to God before the second coming. How is what you have posted here relevant to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming when it is too late to repent and turn to God and the fate of the wicked has already been determined in the second death and their destruction *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9; REVELATION 21:7-8? You do indedd err. You have been provided scripture alone that prove why you are in error only sent in love and as a help to you that proves context you have left out of your interpretation of the scriptures. You choose not to believe these scripture that are only shared with you as a help. These are Gods' Word not mine so you are free to believe as you wish. I will leave it between you and God to work through as we all answer only to God come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48 according to the scriptures and we all need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling according to the Word of God. For me though only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings of men that lead us away from God's Word.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
Why continue with the fallse claim i didn't read your post. I already addressed that false claim:

I did not make any false claims. I do not believe you read my posts because you do not address the content of them but simply re-cut and paste the same posts that have been addressed. Maybe you read them I do not know but you do not respond to the content to show why you disagree as I do for you do you?

ClementofA said:
No, your still not addressing the issues:

Still not addressing what issues? I have been very specific in LAMENTATIONS 3 is you read the post you are quoting from showing the context you disregard that prove your claims that LAMENTATION 3 is to the unrepentant wicked. It is not the scriptures provided you in that post show the context of the post you are quoting from is to ISRAELS afflictions (God's poeple) for departing from God and sinning against him and returning to God in repentance. Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

Detailed scripture response already provided here linked

It is you who are not addressing "issues" not me. As shown above it is the issue of CONTEXT that proves your claims that LAMENTATIONS 3 is in reference to the unrepentant wicked is in error.

ClementofA said:
I did address them by stating this: You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

You have not addressed this whatsoever. I did not provide you human opinion here dear friend I posted you the scripture context you left out and in other post also provide you a commentary as extra support in what I have already shared with you.

ClementofA said:
Nothing changes the facts that i've posted above. So should you not be worried?

As shown above through the scriptures and be linked post above. The context provided proves your interpreation to LAMENTATIONS 3 being to the unreptentant wicked is in error as the context is to repenting ISRAEL not the wicked. This proves that your claims the LAMENATIONS 3 is to the unrepentant wicked is in error. For me it does not change anything but for you it does as it is not saying what you are claiming it is again because you have disregarded the context of the scriptures which is in reference to repentant ISRAEL.

I do not know why you cannot see this.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

Death will be abolished and is not eternal. However the scriptures teach that the second death of the unrepentant wicked is eternal as both death, the wicked are both destroyed together in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels *REVELATION 20:14; REVELATION 21:8; MATTHEW 25:41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; HEBREWS 10:26-39.

ClementofA said:
"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That God may become all "IN ALL" (v.26), even all who were "in Adam (v.22) & shall be "in Christ" (v.22).

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

What your last sentence states is irrelevant. I never claimed any such thing.

The fact is that the wicked are still alive in the lake of fire even after the new earth is created, not destroyed out of existence as you claim. Shouldn't you start believing Scripture:

Rev.22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15 But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

KJV & a couple others have "saved", but the vast majority do not:

Revelation 21:24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

"—A, B, Vulgate, Coptic, and Andreas read "(the nations shall walk) by means of her light": omitting "of them which are saved."

"...of them which are saved] Should be omitted."

Revelation 21:24 Commentaries: The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

Of course the wicked won't be allowed in the New Jerusalem, until they are saved & added to those who have "life", which will be "all":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

The leaves of the tree are for the "healing" of the nations. The saints are immortal & need no "healing". Only those in the lake of fire do. Therefore they are still there alive, being tormented (Rev.14:10; 20:10; 22:14-15), till they are "healed", saved & made immortal as the rest (1 Cor.15:22).

As scripture states (Rom.5:10, etc) we, fallen sinners, have - all - been His enemies:

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

You believe the lake of fire is eternal? Does the Bible tell you so? Where?

Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

Repitition already addressed elsewhere as are your remaining posts dear friend. Your just cutting and pasting the same things over and over. Do you have anything new to add? I guess not. Seems our conversation is coming to an end. You have no scripture do you that shows that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming and are yet to provide one. I think your beginning to realise this. Here we still are 1535 posts latter and 75+ pages and not a single scripture in all this thread that support the UNIVERSALISM view that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. Well something to pray about I guess.

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

FineLinen · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
You must be behind in your reading dear Fine. This was alread adressed some time ago in post # 1495 linked here

Hope this is helpful

Your pages and pages and pages are not only not helpful they are so easy to ignore!

Gobs of gobbledygook are NOT Gods Word

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

FineLinen said:
Your pages and pages and pages are not only not helpful they are so easy to ignore!

Well it depends dear friend some love Gods Word and some do not. (excuse the pun). This is how it has always been all through time and will continue to be this way until the very end. Those who love God's Word are the ones JESUS is coming for. According to the scriptures those who do not love God's Word end up in the lake of fire.

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Cut and paste repitition again dear friend without addressing the content of posts and scriptures shared with you again.

New material was added. Did you not see it here:

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") –properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. ??????? (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

A drunkard can be destroyed by alcohol and later recover. So what if the wicked are "destroyed". What Love Omnipotent destroys He can restore. Jesus said, Destroy this temple and in 3 days i will raise it up (Jn.2:19, paraphrase). King Neb's soul was so destroyed by the Saviour of all mankind that he ate grass like an animal for 7 years until God restored him by destroying his destruction. So can you not see that the destruction of which you speak is no - proof - for the endless annihilation Hitler job on anyone. And why would Love Crucified want to sadistically torment (Rev.14:11; 20:10) anyone He intended to blot out of existence for eternity? Your theology makes - no - sense!

Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

Annihilation places huge doubt on Universalism

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

LoveGodsWord said:
(1) 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 - you post here you have not addressed in
post # 1363; post # 1364; post # 1365; post # 1366; post # 1367.

Are posts 1364-1367 your work? What is the source or link? Are you plagiarizing again?

Can you sum up the argument of those 4 long cut & pastes from somewhere, or have you not even read them yourself?

Exactly how do they refute anything i've posted?

Did the readers in Paul's day require that much commentary to understand the passage?

Do you expect anyone at this forum willl?

LoveGodsWord said:
All you provided above is a cut and paste repitition of your earlier post without addressing any or my other posts from which you provide a few different translation which do not effect the meaning of the Greek to which the above posts prove in detail.

It takes 4 huge cut/paste posts from somewhere to explain that?

The word you posted is "eternal" but i posted translations saying "eonian", etc. So how can you say i "provide a few different translation which do not effect the meaning of the Greek"? If the punishment is only eonian and not eternal, then it can be finite as universalsm says it is.

LoveGodsWord said:
I have already agreed that the process of destruction to aionias is not everlsating as the greek rendering of the scanned script already provided is...

Then why do you use the translation "eternal" at 2 Thess.1:9?

What is this supposed to mean: "the process of destruction to aionias is not everlsating".

LoveGodsWord said:
"Who the penalty shall suffer (context to the wicked and God's vengence) destruction eternal from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength" (see below scanned image)

It is the destruction that is eternal not the act of destruction that many of the eternal burning hell people believe. So no you have not provided any harmony to what UNIVERSALISM teaches at all to what I have been sharing with you.

That's your opinion. OTOH my view is that there is nothing "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9, for "eternal" is not the meaning of the word aionios there. So, as i said, the passage is perfectly harmonious with universalism.

A drunkard can be destroyed by alcohol and later recover. So what if the wicked are "destroyed". What Love Omnipotent destroys He can restore. Jesus said, Destroy this temple and in 3 days i will raise it up (Jn.2:19, paraphrase). King Neb's soul was so destroyed by the Saviour of all mankind that he ate grass like an animal for 7 years until God restored him by destroying his destruction. So can you not see that the destruction of which you speak is no - proof - for the endless annihilation Hitler job on anyone. And why would Love Crucified want to sadistically torment (Rev.14:11; 20:10) anyone He intended to blot out of existence for eternity? Your theology makes - no - sense!

ClementofA · May 30, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
In ROMANS 5:18-19 you try and make claims that these scriptures are talking about JESUS saving the unrepentant wicked.

All fallen men begin as unrepentant enemies of God till they are saved.

LoveGodsWord said:
ROMANS 5:18-19 is teachings that all men have sinned and condemned in sin but that through the act of God's grace and justice and judgement in sending his own son to die on the cross for our sins ALL who accept the gift of Gods' grace by faith in Christ can be reconcilled to God and receive God's forgiveness.

There is no mention of faith or acceptance in those verses. It's besides the point & already addressed elsewhere.

LoveGodsWord said:
The MANY here are the saved.

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

The first "many" in v.19 are all fallen "constituted sinners".

Paul makes a parallel with how "many" will be saved in Rom.5:19b.

IOW it's the exact same "many" referred to in Rom.5:19a.

So all will be saved.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

There in v.18 we see that the extent of condemnation is as extensive as the justification. Justification is for all. Paul doesn't say "for ALL MANKIND", except Judas, Pharoah, & wicked people who died in their sins.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he could have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

ClementofA · May 30, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Your claims to LAMANTATION 3 being to the unrepentant wicked has been proven false already by showing the context you leave out of the text you use to try and claim reconciliation of the unrepentant wicked. LAMANTATIONS 3 scripture context you leave out show that the chapter is about ISRAEL that has sinned against God and retuned to God in repentance and that reconciliation of ISRAEL (God's people) takes place after repentance.

Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

Your just repeating yourself and your same cut and paste without addressing this post addressing your claims here multiple time. The last more detailed reply was posted in post # 1392 linked here. Your just repeating yourself again with continious cut and past without responding to the scripture that prove context that your application of them is in error.

You're doing the same thing you do here with Eccl.1:13:

LoveGodsWord said:
The scriptures your providing are written for God's people and have application to God's people not the wicked.

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

God speaks of "the sons of humanity", not believers only as you would change His word. Shouldn't changing His word worry you? I think i'll take God at His word, instead of your alteration of it:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

LoveGodsWord said:
You have not addressed anything in my earliar post the shows the context you left out.

I did address them by stating this:

You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

And the context doesn't change this:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

LoveGodsWord said:
Your claims here have been clearly refurted already in a post you have not even bothered to read or address.

Nonsense. How would you know what i read or didn't read? Can you read minds? Are you omniscient? I did read the human opinions you posted. And addresss them (see above). What else is there to say. Nothing in them changed Lam.3:31-33 KJV or refuted anything i said. If you think so, point it out & explain why. That's the proper way to do things.

LoveGodsWord said:
I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin.

So what? Lam,3:31-33 KJV - EXPANDS upon that and goes further to include "men" in general. Or do you not believe what is in front of your eyes? Or do you think God cannot speak of both Israel and "men" in general in the same context? That would be limiting God, wouldn't it? Would you want to limit God? Should that not worry you?

LoveGodsWord said:
Why you continue to ignore this is beyond me. As shown earlier through the scriptures....

Sorry dear friend but LAMENTATIONS 3 is over ISRAELS afflictions (God's poeple) for departing from God and sinning against him and returning to God in repentance. Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

...............

Benson Commentary
Lamentations 3:31-33. The Lord will not cast off for ever — The truly penitent that put their trust in him, and sincerely desire and seek reconciliation with him: though he may for a time appear to estrange himself from them, yet he will certainly return to them. Though he cause grief — Though, as a prudent parent, he may see reason to chastise his people by affliction, yet as a kind and tender Father, who pitieth his children in misery, according to the multitude, the unspeakable greatness and abundance of his mercies, he will have compassion upon them. For he doth not afflict willingly — Hebrew, מלבו, from his heart, that is, of his own mere motion, without cause given him by the persons afflicted; or freely and with pleasure; nor grieve the children of men — Much less his own children. Hence judgment is called his strange work, and exercising mercy and loving-kindness his delight.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For the Lord will not cast off for ever. Which is not to be understood of all his creatures; for there are some he does cast off for ever, as the angels that sinned; reprobate men, profligate and abandoned sinners, that live and die impenitent; and unbelievers, carnal professors, and apostates; but not his own special and peculiar people, the people whom he has foreknown and loved with an everlasting love, his spiritual Israel; or, as the Targum supplies it, "his servants"; see Psalm 94:14; he may seem for a while to reject them, but not in reality and for ever; as when he hides his face from them, lays his afflicting hand on them, or suffers then, to be afflicted by others, and defers his help, and does not immediately appear to their deliverance and salvation; but in reality he never rejects them from being his people, his servants, and his sons; they have always a place in his heart, and are ever under his eye and care; they continue in his covenant, and abide in his family; and though they may be cast down in their souls, and cast out by men, yet are not cast off by God, neither in youth nor old age, in time or eternity; his love is unchangeable; his purposes firm and unalterable; his counsel, covenant, oath, and promise, immutable; and they are his jewels, his portion, and inheritance; and this is a ground and reason of bearing patiently all afflictions, injuries, and reproaches; for though men cast off, God will not.

It seems dear friend God's Word disagrees with you and the posts your providing are simply smoke and mirrors. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

Gods' Sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him.

Here you just repeat your previous comments with some empty fluff added. Nothing changes the facts that i've posted above. So should you not be worried?

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