THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[LoveGodsWord]

Apparently you are so wedded to your belief that you cannot see the forest from the trees.

Goodness more personal attacks now dear friend and empty words and claims you cannot prove? Perhaps your words apply to you? Why not directly prove your claims by addressing the content of my posts and the scriptures provided to you that prove what you have posted are in error. If you cannot why are you simply making empty claims and getting all upset?

Ongoing is indeed applied to Rev 22:14 BUT THE PROBLEM which you have failed to address is how is that ongoing action applicable TO THE SAINTS?

This is nonsense and you know this as I addressed this in detail in earlier posts to you that you simply ignored and would not address. If you re-read through posts; 533; 537; 539; 544; 546; 677; 695 and 842 linked which I checked already you will see this. The above posts prove and show that in your interpretation of REVELATION 22:14 you...

1. Have left out CONTEXT in your interpretation
2. The Greek verb tenses and plynotes support to "ongoing" is supportive of the use of the kjv's application to commandments and not washing of robes.
3. The differences between the translations (Greek manuscripts) of the KJV verses the new translastions and why the KJV is correct with further links of REVELATION 22:14 back to REVELATION 14:12 and REVELATION 12:17 which state God's people are keeping (verb tense to present tense "ONGOIN") all the commandments of God and the faith of JESUS.

Your response to this help is simply a hadwaive. So you are free to disagree dear friend. We will have to agree to disagree as I believe God's Word has been shared with you and proves why your interpretation of REVELATION 22:14 is in error. I will what you decide to do with what is shared with you between you and God. I believe you should reconsider your thinking here as your adding to the book of REVELATION things that are not in there and we are WARNED under loss of eternal life not to do is in this same chapter in REVELATION 22:18-19. I suggest you read it dear friend and prayerfully re-read what has been shared in love only as a help to you.

Answer me the question of how are the saints doing his commandments when they have already done his commandments per Rev 14:12, and as a result of their obedience, live in the new Jerusalem?? I've seen nothing in your posts which answers that. It is the sinners in the LOF in v.15 who have to be doing his commandments as that is the reason that they are there in the first place. They failed to trust in Jesus and obey God's commandments in their mortal lives and consequently have to suffer in the consequences of doing God's commandments in the lake of fire in their resurrected lives. As a result of doing his commandments in the LOF, they will one day have the right to the tree of life and enter the city gates as specified in v.14. Comprende?

Look at the Greek verb tenses and plynotes. This has already been explained to you in REVELATION 22:14. The saints "KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMANT" in REVELATION 14:12 τηροῦντες is also V-PPA-NMP the same as ποιέω in REVELATION 22:14.

Furthermore you conspicuously avoided answering my direct question to you as to Why and how do the "kings of the earth" referenced in Rev 21:23-27 enter into the new Jerusalem? Since our discussion has been at an impasse for quite some time, I asked you that question to demonstrate to you from the scriptures that your view is incorrect. You can either choose to answer it or refuse.

This also is easy. Read the context your leaving out. REVELATION 21:23-27 in the KJV says

REVELATION 21:23-27 [23], And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
[24], AND THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED SHALL WALK IN THE LIGHT OF IT: AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH DO BRING THEIR GLORY AND HONOR INTO IT.
[25], And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
[26], And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

Now lets consided all the scripture CONTEXTS in relation to Gods saints and where they are and the wicked and where they are starting with REVELATION 21:7-8?

REVELATION 21:7-8 [7], HE THAT OVERCOMES SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS; AND I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. [8], BUT THE FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, AND THE ABOMINABLE, AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND ALL LIARS, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

So v7-8 state that God's saints who overcome sin (keep his commandments) will inherit all things, while the wicked shall have their part in the lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH! These scriptures also support what REVELATION 22:15 says that with wicked are OUTSIDE of the CITY.

Let's continue to key verses in REVELATION 21:24 and REVELATION 21:27...

[24], And THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

Note; in the KJV the nations that are entering the city (nations ἔθνος means a multitude of peoples of the same origins - God's church in context is to the saved or those entering the city of God) are the saved. This is further demonstrated in REVELATION 21:27 which states that the wicked do not enter the city of God only those who are written in the lambs book of life. According to REVELATION 21:8 and REVELATION 22:14 the wicked are OUTSIDE THE CITY in the lake of fire which is the SECOND DEATH!.

Hope this is helpful dear friend. I pray that you may please take some time to consider the context and the scriptures provided as this is only sent in love and as a help.

.............

Notice the scriptures above that prove your interpretation to REVELATION 21:24 being the wicked entering the city is refuted in the context your leaving out in REVELATION 21:7-8 and REVELATION 21:27 which states that the wicked do not enter into the city and receive the SECOND DEATH as they are not in the Lambs book of life. Another words they do not receive eternal life. They receive the second death as stated in the scriptures (God's Word not mine dear friend).

My prayer dear OMT is that you might receive all of the above as a blessing and not harden your heart here. I pray that you may receive these posts in the spirit that they are given. They are only sent in love and as a help to you. What you do with this help I will leave between you and God and only wish you well.

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are misunderstanding. Yes, the Bible is a story.. that I choose to accept as the TRUTH. However, I can not prove to unbelievers that what is in it is real, but by FAITH I have accepted it as reality.

Thanks for your thoughts. To me however they are confusing. If God's Word tells you something should we simply then believe what it says? How can you have faith if you do not believe the scriptures if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God?

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Yes I read what you said. It is not biblical though you simply provided an opinion.

Your response...

It is very much biblical. Every instance in the Bible that deals with punishment and justice uses the greek term "kolasis". It means correction, always in a restorative sense (It is for the benefit of the one being punished). THE ONLY TIME the Bible ever uses "timoria", which implies punitive, retributive justice and punishment is when used in the context of how humans treat each other (for the benefit of the PUNISHER).I am telling you plainly that God always punishes from a restorative context and giving you evidence but you still prefer to believe otherwise. Please explain how annihilating wicked people is for the benefit of wicked people?

NONSENSE. Well that is not true at all dear agapelove but let me share with you in detail why it is not true and let God's Word be a blessing to you.

WHY IS YOUR APPLICATION OF "kolasis" to PUNISHMENT NOT RELEVANT?

Your mixing up God's correction (punishment) to the saints with God's punishment to the wicked. Different Greek and Hebrew Words are used for example the punishment to the wicked after the second coming is DESTRUCTION which means to "PERISH" by DEATH (the second death (REVELATION 21:7).

The application of the scriptures here are not to correction in context to the saints but to God's JUSTICE and JUDGEMENTS and VENGENCE on the wicked as shown in HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 22:11-12.

As you can see when God is talking about the punishment of the wicked (scripture context) the words DESTRUCTION, DESTROY, DEATH, PERISH and God's VENGENGE is tied to the GREEK definition of φθείρω; phtheirō which means TO PUNISH WITH DEATH TO BE DESTROYED AND PERISH. So no your claims here are not correct as your mixing up the punishment in context meaning the correction of the saved with the punishement of the wicked at the second coming which means TO PUNISH WITH DEATH TO BE DESTROYED AND PERISH.

You also may want to consider ἀπόλλυμι; apollumi that JESUS uses (MATTHEW 21:41; MATTHEW 10:28) in reference to the WICKED at his coming which agrees with the punishment to the WICKED already shared with you above which means; TO DESTROY FULL (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - DESTROY, DIE, LOSE, PERISH.

You also may want to consider in reference to the WICKED the Greek Word used for the punishment of the WICKED καταφθείρω; kataphtheirō (eg 2 PETER 2:12) which means to UTTERLY DESTROY AND PERISH.

You also may want to consider the Greek word used by JESUS in reference to the WICKED in MATTHEW 7:13 ἀπώλεια; apōleia which means ruin or loss physical, spiritual or eternal: - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

Well I think we can stop here as I think you can see your mistake here. We have not even started on the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures in relation to the punishment of the wicked (AFTER THE SECOND COMING). If you need more proof just let me know.

Your mistake is in only looking at "kolasis" which is in reference to correction of the Saints and not looking at the Greek words to punishment of the Wicked which means to DESTROY BY DEATH TO UTTERLY PERISH. Hope this is helpful.

I have referred you to many scriptures but perhaps you did not feel like looking them up. Here are some:

Hos 11: God changes his mind about the judgment that he promised on Israel.
Book of Jonah: God changes his mind about the judgment on Ninevah.
Parable of the Lost Sheep: God leaves his flock in order to look for the one sheep who is lost.
Colossians 1:20 "and through him to reconcile ALL THINGS"
1 Corinthians 15:22 "so also in Christ ALL will be made alive."
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Psalm 136:1 Oh, give thanks to the LORD, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever.

I choose to read this verses to mean ALL really means ALL, the WORLD means righteous AND wicked, and forever means FOREVER.

I have provided my scripture and there are plenty more that can support my case of a good God. But it will always be a case of my scripture versus your scripture versus the EBH guys' scripture. We are trying to find harmonization where harmonization does not exist. I can only humble myself to say that there is no proof for any of our presumptions, that is why I base my point of view off of HOPE, not proof. I don't want to open another can of worms.. but I guess this is where we differ in beliefs as well. I am not so sure I take on the penal substitution point of view of the cross. But rather I see Jesus' death as a profound expression of God's unconditional love for us.. which has always existed (even before the cross). WE crucified Jesus, not God. But even in this ultimate, violent, abominable act of rejection, God shows us he will still come after us with love.

Yes thankyou. I did not think the scriptures you provided however were at all relevant to our discussion as I am discussing with you what happens to the WICKED at the second coming. I am not talking to you about God's people to return to God. Every scripture you provided here is a reference to Gods people returning to God after sin. What I am trying to discuss with you is what happened to the UNREPENTANT WICKED after the second coming that the God's Word teaches will be DESTROYED *HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 22:11-12 in the second DEATH in the lake of fire *REVELATION 21:8; REVELATION 22:15.

So please keep the conversation on topic. I am not discussing what happens to those who return to JESUS before the second coming. Can you see now what you have provided does not support your case and what I am sharing with you from the scriptures? The scriptures you have provided are talking about the repentant saved that return to God before the second coming. I am trying to discuss with you what happens with the UNREPENTANT WICKED at after the SECOND COMING.

Hope this is helpful to the conversation.

 

[Oldmantook]

Goodness more personal attacks now dear friend and empty words and claims you cannot prove? Perhaps your words apply to you? Why not directly prove your claims by addressing the content of my posts and the scriptures provided to you that prove what you have posted are in error. If you cannot why are you simply making empty claims and getting all upset?

This is nonsense and you know this as I addressed this in detail in earlier posts to you that you simply ignored and would not address. If you re-read through posts; 533; 537; 539; 544; 546; 677; 695 and 842 linked which I checked already you will see this. The above posts prove and show that in your interpretation of REVELATION 22:14 you...

1. Have left out context in your interpretation of REVELATION 22:14
2. The Greek verb tenses and plynotes support to "ongoing" is supportive of the use of the kjv's application to commandments and not washing of robes.
3. The differences between the translations (Greek manuscripts) of the KJV verses the new translastions and why the KJV is correct with further links of REVELATION 22:14 back to REVELATION 14:12 and REVELATION 12:17 which state God's people are keeping (verb tense to present tense "ONGOIN") all the commandments of God and the faith of JESUS.

Your response to this help is simply a hadwaive. So you are free to disagree dear friend. We will have to agree to disagree as I believe God's Word has been shared with you and proves why your interpretation of REVELATION 22:14 is in error. I will what you decide to do with what is shared with you between you and God. I believe you should reconsider your thinking here as your adding to the book of REVELATION things that are not in there and we are WARNED under loss of eternal life not to do is in this same chapter in REVELATION 22:18-19. I suggest you read it dear friend and prayerfully re-read what has been shared in love only as a help to you.

Look at the Greek verb tenses and plynotes. This has already been explained to you in REVELATION 22:14. The saints "KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMANT" in REVELATION 14:12 τηροῦντες is also V-PPA-NMP the same as ποιέω in REVELATION 22:14.

This also is easy. Read the context your leaving out. REVELATION 21:23-27 in the KJV says

REVELATION 21:23-27 [23], And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
[24], AND THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED SHALL WALK IN THE LIGHT OF IT: AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH DO BRING THEIR GLORY AND HONOR INTO IT.
[25], And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
[26], And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

Now lets consided all the scripture CONTEXTS in relation to Gods saints and where they are and the wicked and where they are starting with REVELATION 21:7-8?

REVELATION 21:7-8 [7], HE THAT OVERCOMES SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS; AND I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. [8], BUT THE FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, AND THE ABOMINABLE, AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND ALL LIARS, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

So v7-8 state that God's saints who overcome sin (keep his commandments) will inherit all things, while the wicked shall have their part in the lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH! These scriptures also support what REVELATION 22:15 says that with wicked are OUTSIDE of the CITY.

Let's continue to key verses in REVELATION 21:24 and REVELATION 21:27...

[24], And THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

Note; in the KJV the nations that are entering the city (nations ἔθνος means a multitude of peoples of the same origins - God's church in context is to the saved or those entering the city of God) are the saved. This is further demonstrated in REVELATION 21:27 which states that the wicked do not enter the city of God only those who are written in the lambs book of life. According to REVELATION 21:8 and REVELATION 22:14 the wicked are OUTSIDE THE CITY in the lake of fire which is the SECOND DEATH!.

Hope this is helpful dear friend. I pray that you may please take some time to consider the context and the scriptures provided as this is only sent in love and as a help.

.............

Notice the scriptures above that prove your interpretation to REVELATION 21:24 being the wicked entering the city is refuted in the context your leaving out in REVELATION 21:7-8 and REVELATION 21:27 which states that the wicked do not enter into the city and receive the SECOND DEATH as they are not in the Lambs book of life. Another words they do not receive eternal life. They receive the second death as stated in the scriptures (God's Word not mine dear friend).

My prayer dear OMT is that you might receive all of the above as a blessing and not harden your heart here. I pray that you may receive these posts in the spirit that they are given. They are only sent in love and as a help to you. What you do with this help I will leave between you and God and only wish you well.

Hope this helps

Why in the world do you simply copy and paste your previous arguments which I already replied to?? Moreover, you jump to the conclusion that those in the LOF never enter the city based on your citation of Rev 21:7-8; 27. Those verses state NO SUCH THING. Problem is you have inferred your belief into the text when the text itself does not state that. Poor exegesis on your part so I suggest that you stop eisegeting the scriptures. Vs.7-8 simply state that the wicked will have their part in the lake of fire which is a factual statement. V.27 simply states that nothing unclean/sinful enter the city which is also a factual statement. They DO NOT STATE that those in the LOF are ever prevented from entering the city upon doing His commandments/washing their robes. Your logic is not logical as you have made a leap of logic. Thus your conclusion is unfounded and has no scriptural support from the verses you cited.

In fact if you bothered to answer my direct question to you, you would be enlightened to know that those sinners in the LOF do in fact enter the city. But perhaps that is why you refuse to answer it despite my request for 3x now as it nullifies your belief system.
Why and how do the "kings of the earth" referenced in Rev 21:23-27 enter into the new Jerusalem?
Shall I continue to wait for your answer or am I just wasting my time?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Why in the world do you simply copy and paste your previous arguments which I already replied to?? Moreover, you jump to the conclusion that those in the LOF never enter the city based on your citation of Rev 21:7-8; 27. Those verses state NO SUCH THING. Problem is you have inferred your belief into the text when the text itself does not state that. Poor exegesis on your part so I suggest that you stop eisegeting the scriptures. Vs.7-8 simply state that the wicked will have their part in the lake of fire which is a factual statement. V.27 simply states that nothing unclean/sinful enter the city which is also a factual statement. They DO NOT STATE that those in the LOF are ever prevented from entering the city upon doing His commandments/washing their robes. Your logic is not logical as you have made a leap of logic. Thus your conclusion is unfounded and has no scriptural support from the verses you cited.

In fact if you bothered to answer my direct question to you, you would be enlightened to know that those sinners in the LOF do in fact enter the city. But perhaps that is why you refuse to answer it despite my request for 3x now as it nullifies your belief system.
Why and how do the "kings of the earth" referenced in Rev 21:23-27 enter into the new Jerusalem?
Shall I continue to wait for your answer or am I just wasting my time?

Well nothing in this post has any truth in it dear friend. The post you are quoting from is not a copy and paste whatsoever. I summarised why I believe your claims in error and not truthful with the scriptures. Your post here only shows you did not even bother to read what you are responding to as the very question you ask is answered in that post. Ok good luck with adding to REVELATIONS. I have tried to warn you by pointing out the relevant scriptures. Your hand waiving and not addressing my posts and scripture evidence with you is quite revealing. I will leave it between you and God. You are free to believe as you wish. If we close our eyes to the scriptures it does not make them disappear. It becomes our judge come judgment day. Good luck with that. We will have to agree to disagree. I will leave it now between you and God to work through our discussion is over for now.

 

[Oldmantook]

Well nothing in this post has any truth in it dear friend. I summarised why your claims are not truthful and your post here only shows you did not even bother to read what you are responding to as the very question you ask is answered in that post. Ok good luck with adding to REVELATIONS when you have been warned and shown why you are in error. Your hand waiving and not addressing my posts and scripture evidence to you is telling. I will leave it between you and God. You are free to believe as you wish. If we close our eyes to the scriptures it does not make them disappear. It becomes our judge come judgment day. Good luck with that. We will have to agree to disagree. I will leave it now between you and God to work through.

It is quite revealing that you have steadfastly refused to answer my simple question posed to you thrice. Why is that? You have instead closed your own eyes to it. How ironic that you remark about "closing our eyes to the scriptures it does not make them disappear" when you have done just that. Unfortunately you are indicted by your own words. I'll answer my own question when I have more time since you turn a blind eye to it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It is quite revealing that you have steadfastly refused to answer my simple question posed to you thrice. Why is that? You have instead closed your own eyes to it. How ironic that you remark about "closing our eyes to the scriptures it does not make them disappear" when you have done just that. Unfortunately you are indicted by your own words. I'll answer my own question when I have more time since you turn a blind eye to it.

Your not telling the truth dear friend. Your question was addressed in post 921 linked go and read it.

From post 921 linked excerpt is provided below...

Oldmantook said: ↑
Furthermore you conspicuously avoided answering my direct question to you as to Why and how do the "kings of the earth" referenced in Rev 21:23-27 enter into the new Jerusalem? Since our discussion has been at an impasse for quite some time, I asked you that question to demonstrate to you from the scriptures that your view is incorrect. You can either choose to answer it or refuse.

This also is easy. Read the context your leaving out. REVELATION 21:23-27 in the KJV says

REVELATION 21:23-27 [23], And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
[24], AND THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED SHALL WALK IN THE LIGHT OF IT: AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH DO BRING THEIR GLORY AND HONOR INTO IT.
[25], And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
[26], And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

Now lets consided all the scripture CONTEXTS in relation to Gods saints and where they are and the wicked and where they are starting with REVELATION 21:7-8?

REVELATION 21:7-8 [7], HE THAT OVERCOMES SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS; AND I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. [8], BUT THE FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, AND THE ABOMINABLE, AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND ALL LIARS, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

So v7-8 state that God's saints who overcome sin (keep his commandments) will inherit all things, while the wicked shall have their part in the lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH! These scriptures also support what REVELATION 22:15 says that with wicked are OUTSIDE of the CITY.

Let's continue to key verses in REVELATION 21:24 and REVELATION 21:27...

[24], And THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

Note; in the KJV the nations that are entering the city (nations ἔθνος means a multitude of peoples of the same origins - God's church in context is to the saved or those entering the city of God) are the saved. This is further demonstrated in REVELATION 21:27 which states that the wicked do not enter the city of God only those who are written in the lambs book of life. According to REVELATION 21:8 and REVELATION 22:14 the wicked are OUTSIDE THE CITY in the lake of fire which is the SECOND DEATH!.

Hope this is helpful dear friend. I pray that you may please take some time to consider the context and the scriptures provided as this is only sent in love and as a help.

...............

As shown above your claims are simply unfounded.

 

[agapelove]

Thanks for your thoughts. To me however they are confusing. If God's Word tells you something should we simply then believe what it says? How can you have faith if you do not believe the scriptures if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God?

I believe in scripture. Just not YOUR version of it.

I have read all your scriptural references but I interpret them differently. You seem to think universalists are building their doctrine out of thin air but no, I argue that they are just as knowledgeable about scripture as you. We believe that God is just, but we also believe that His mercy will ultimately have the last word. To accuse a fellow brother/sister of unbiblical beliefs is an offense to all universalists.

WHY IS YOUR APPLICATION OF "kolasis" to PUNISHMENT NOT RELEVANT?

Okay. If you find this argument to be invalid then I will not bother with a lengthy rebuttal. I do have a genuine question though. We see the phrase “kolasin aionion" used in Matthew 25, The Sheep and the Goats.

"All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
....Then they will go away to kolasin aionion, but the righteous to eternal life."

Are you telling me that the "goats" that are being punished here are actually saints that have not been cleansed yet? Because that is definitely not how anyone else will see it. The goats in the story are the WICKED. God is clearly applying kolasis to them here.

God's character and the way he punishes does not change just because you are dead now. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (Hebrews 13:8). If God uses restorative justice today, he will continue to do so until all is restored.

Yes thankyou. I did not think the scriptures you provided however were at all relevant to our discussion as I am discussing with you what happens to the WICKED at the second coming. I am not talking to you about God's people to return to God. Every scripture you provided here is a reference to Gods people returning to God after sin. What I am trying to discuss with you is what happened to the UNREPENTANT WICKED after the second coming that the God's Word teaches will be DESTROYED *HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 22:11-12 in the second DEATH in the lake of fire *REVELATION 21:8; REVELATION 22:15.

So please keep the conversation on topic. I am not discussing what happens to those who return to JESUS before the second coming. Can you see now what you have provided does not support your case and what I am sharing with you from the scriptures? The scriptures you have provided are talking about the repentant saved that return to God before the second coming. I am trying to discuss with you what happens with the UNREPENTANT WICKED at after the SECOND COMING.

No, not every scripture I shared is irrelevant. You have only addressed what was easy for you to dismiss, and you seem to have stopped reading after the third line. The scriptures I shared state God will reconcile ALL THINGS, so in Christ ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE, God was reconciling THE WORLD to Himself. His mercy endures FOREVER.

It seems to me that all these verses do not come after the second coming. They are extremely clear in their inclusiveness of EVEN the unrepentant WICKED. And what about the word forever? These are some pretty convicting scriptures that you seem to avoid addressing.

I will try to address your verses that are so bent on DESTRUCTION, PERISHING, DYING, BEING DESTROYED......

God tells us there is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10). So even you and I are wicked UNTIL we are baptized with the Holy Spirit AND FIRE (Matthew 3:11). It is through the PROCESS of blotting away our transgressions, washing away our iniquities, and cleansing ourselves of sin (Psalm 51:1) that the righteousness in us can come forth. Our old self has to DIE (Colossians 3:3).

This is what I see the LOF to represent. This process of DESTRUCTION, PERISHING, DYING of our old self. Yes, there is no verse that I can give you to state that someone comes out of the LOF but we have seen and experienced the process ourselves, we know it is real.

That, in combination with the verses in Revelation 21-22 that hint at the existence of the wicked still (Revelation 22:15) and the extended invitation to repent (Revelation 22:17) PERMITS ME to hope that all is not lost for those inside the LOF.

There is a difference in seeing your verses as complete and total annihilation of wicked people VERSUS complete and annihilation of the wickedness IN people. Do you understand how I am interpreting your versus differently now?

I appreciate your thoughtful responses thus far. I am not asking you to convert to a Universalist. I am simply stating that we deserve to be recognized as a viable doctrine of Christianity.

 

[agapelove]

Good old Lover has created a thread which has exceeded her intent. The Maginot Line of the Restitution of all things is continuing to stand as a bulwark in response. Agape Love has joined the resistance movement.

Welcome Agape, your posts are a delight!

We are doing the LORD's work here by spreading the message of outrageous, reckless love. Agape love will always win! LOVE NEVER FAILS!

 

[James A]

The Bible is made up of human words "inspired by God" and a collection of visions and prophecies. Is there real proof besides stories written down thousands of years ago? No. But you and I still choose to accept it as our reality. That is what I mean when I say universalism cannot be proven, but by FAITH in God's love I choose to accept it as a possible reality. Am I making things up about God's love? Do you think I am overestimating? No, I am simply choosing to believe what Jesus told us about God - He really IS that good. Universalism IS in the bible if you choose to see it.

For the historical accuracy of the Gospel claims, please refer to "The case of .." series books by Lee Strobel.

 

[agapelove]

For the historical accuracy of the Gospel claims, please refer to "The case of .." series books by Lee Strobel.

Thank you for the recommendation!

I still maintain that there are many things that can never be proven within the Bible, but accepted as true through faith alone.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe in scripture. Just not YOUR version of it. I have read all your scriptural references but I interpret them differently. You seem to think universalists are building their doctrine out of thin air but no, I argue that they are just as knowledgeable about scripture as you. We believe that God is just, but we also believe that His mercy will ultimately have the last word. To accuse a fellow brother/sister of unbiblical beliefs is an offense to all universalists.

Well fact is what you posted was not correct you cannot make a rebuttal when your post was shown to be in error. Universalism is indeed building on false doctrines. You are yet to provide a single scripture that says the unrepentant wicked are not destroyed and enter into eternallife after the second coming. Claims to the wicked receiving eternal life is a made up teaching that is not biblical and has no basis in the bible. According to the scriptures God does not give a free pass to those who do not accept the free gift of his Grace through faith.

Okay. If you find this argument to be invalid then I will not bother with a lengthy rebuttal.

In both the Greek and Hebrew languages it is not the word meaning that determine interpretation because many of the Hebrew and Greek words have more than one meaning and some many definitions of the same words being used. What determines "interpretation" is the application to both within scripture and chapter context. Go to any Greek and Hebrew language sites and you will see I am telling you the truth. While knowing the definitions is helpful you must also consider the other words applied to it's use in context to the rest of the scripture to which it is applied and the chapter subject matter to determine interpretation. This was were your post was mainly in error. You cannot respond with a lengthy rebuttal because you will not have one as I have already shown you the above from the scriptures and also the different Greek words you ignored in reference to the Wicked after the second coming.

I do have a genuine question though. We see the phrase “kolasin aionion" used in Matthew 25, The Sheep and the Goats. "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
....Then they will go away to kolasin aionion, but the righteous to eternal life."
Are you telling me that the "goats" that are being punished here are actually saints that have not been cleansed yet? Because that is definitely not how anyone else will see it. The goats in the story are the WICKED. God is clearly applying kolasis to them here.

God's character and the way he punishes does not change just because you are dead now. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (Hebrews 13:8). If God uses restorative justice today, he will continue to do so until all is restored.

Most of my response here is linked to the previous response in the last section which proves that word definitions in the Greek and Hebrew must ben linked to context to the rest of the scriptures and chapter subject matter to determine interpretation. Let's look at the passage in detail as you will see that the context which determines word meaning and definitions do not agree with what you are proposing. Why? To see why we need to examine both context and word definition together not in isolation to each other.

Let's examine the context and word definition together to determine passage interpretation..

MATTHEW 25:31-46
[31], WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY, AND ALL THE HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM, THEN SHALL HE SIT ON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY

Note: Context is to the second coming… v31

[32], And BEFORE HIM SHALL BE GATHERED ALL NATIONS: AND HE SHALL SEPARATE THEM ONE FROM ANOTHER, AS A SHEPHERD DIVIDES HIS SHEEP FROM THE GOATS:
[33], And HE SHALL SET THE SHEEP ON HIS RIGHT HAND, BUT THE GOATS ON THE LEFT.

Note: Separation of the Saints and the wicked…v32-31

[34], Then shall THE KING SAY TO THEM ON HIS RIGHT HAND, COME, YOU BLESSED OF MY FATHER, INHERIT THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD: [35], For I was an hungered, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: [36], Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37], Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink? [38], When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you?
[39], Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came to you? [40], And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me.

Note: The reward of the Saints are given by JESUS at the second coming… v34-40

[41], Then shall HE SAY ALSO TO THEM ON THE LEFT HAND, DEPART FROM ME, YOU CURSED, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS:

[42], For I was an hungered, and you gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink: [43], I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not. [44], Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to you? [45], Then shall he answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.

Note; the reward of the Wicked and the Saints. The Saints inherit the KINGDOM v34 while the reward of the wicked is EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS v41

[46], AND THESE SHALL GO AWAY INTO EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: BUT THE RIGHTEOUS INTO LIFE ETERNAL.

Note: Then it finishes by saying that the Saints go to eternal life and the Wicked to everlasting punishment.

.................

Let’s now look at the GREEK word definitions for “everlasting punishment” then lets link it to the sumarised context shown above shall we?

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 166: αἰώνιος
αἰώνιος, and (in 2 Thessalonians 2:16; Hebrews 9:12; Numbers 25:13; Plato, Tim., p. 38 b. (see below); Diodorus 1:1; (cf. WHs Appendix, p. 157; Winers Grammar, 69 (67); Buttmann, 26 (23))) αἰώνιος, αἰώνια, αἰώνιον (αἰών); 1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: Θεός, Romans 16:26 (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Hebrews 9:14. (my note here; this is the short version happy to post the full application to MATTHEW 25:41 let me know)

Ok lets, look at "punishment" G2851 κόλασις "kolasis"

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2851: κόλασις
κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (κολάζω), correction, punishment, penalty: Matthew 25:46; κόλασιν ἔχει,brings with it or has connected with it the thought of punishment, 1 John 4:18. (Ezekiel

Note: see κόλασις "kolasis" the Greek Lexicon shows that out of the three possible definitions provided that MATTHEW 25:46's definition is applied to "PUNISHMENT" with context to the "WICKED.

..................

Ok lets link together our word definitions to the within scripture and chapter CONTEXT to determine "INTERPRETATION" and word meanings.

1. Note: Context is to the second coming… v31
2. Note: Context of the separation of the Saints and the Wicked…v32-31
3. Note: Context to the reward of the Saints are given by JESUS at the second coming… v34-40
4. Note; Context to reward of the Wicked and the Saints. The Saints inherit the KINGDOM v34 while the reward of the wicked is EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS v41

5. Note: V46 finishes by saying that the Saints go to eternal life and the Wicked to everlasting punishment.

Applying eternal (αἰώνιος aiónios) and punishment (κόλασις kolasis) to the context provided?

The eternal (without beginning and end God's justice and judgement) punishment (correct word definition shown in the Greek Lexicon) is in CONTEXT to the second coming v31 applied to the wickeds punishment being EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS v41. This is emphasized further in v46 with JESUS saying that the wicked go to eternal life and the wicked going to eternal punishment which the context shows is the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels v41.

Can you see how the context determines the correct word definitions?

No, not every scripture I shared is irrelevant. You have only addressed what was easy for you to dismiss, and you seem to have stopped reading after the third line. The scriptures I shared state God will reconcile ALL THINGS, so in Christ ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE, God was reconciling THE WORLD to Himself. His mercy endures FOREVER. It seems to me that all these verses do not come after the second coming. They are extremely clear in their inclusiveness of EVEN the unrepentant WICKED. And what about the word forever? These are some pretty convicting scriptures that you seem to avoid addressing.

No I still maintain every scripture you posted was irrelevant and posted why earlier. Your interpretation of and application to "ALL MADE ALIVE" here is also to the "Saints" through the blood of JESUS the key Word to look at here in CORINTIANS is "IN CHRIST". It's application is not to the wicked who reject the Gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. The scripture you quoting here says no where that all the wicked will receive everlasting life. You misquoting the scriptures.

I will try to address your verses that are so bent on DESTRUCTION, PERISHING, DYING, BEING DESTROYED.....

Well hang on a minuete they are God's verses and scriptures not mine and secondly the "DESTRUCTION, PERISHING, DYING, BEING DESTROYED" is the Greek word used applied to the scripture context as we did in the previous section go and check it out.

God tells us there is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10). So even you and I are wicked UNTIL we are baptized with the Holy Spirit AND FIRE (Matthew 3:11). It is through the PROCESS of blotting away our transgressions, washing away our iniquities, and cleansing ourselves of sin (Psalm 51:1) that the righteousness in us can come forth. Our old self has to DIE (Colossians 3:3).

True, all are wicked before they come to JESUS and accept the free gift of God's love and Grace. I am not talking about the wicked before the second coming. I am talking about the unrepentant wicked after the second coming so this scripture is not relevant to our conversation.

This is what I see the LOF to represent. This process of DESTRUCTION, PERISHING, DYING of our old self. Yes, there is no verse that I can give you to state that someone comes out of the LOF but we have seen and experienced the process ourselves, we know it is real.

Hmmm... What? All the scriptures I provided you were in reference to the UNREPENTANT WICKED AFTER THE SECOND COMING! Take another look at the context.

That, in combination with the verses in Revelation 21-22 that hint at the existence of the wicked still (Revelation 22:15) and the extended invitation to repent (Revelation 22:17) PERMITS ME to hope that all is not lost for those inside the LOF.

Goodness the scriptures say no such thing. Detailed scripture response here click me

There is a difference in seeing your verses as complete and total annihilation of wicked people VERSUS complete and annihilation of the wickedness IN people. Do you understand how I am interpreting your versus differently now? I appreciate your thoughtful responses thus far. I am not asking you to convert to a Universalist. I am simply stating that we deserve to be recognized as a viable doctrine of Christianity.

Ok please post me a single scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked after the second coming are not destroyed at the coming of JESUS and come out of the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his Angels and receive eternal life. You are yet to post a scripture despite the scriptures showing that the fate of all the unrepentant wicked in the DESTRUCTION, PERISHING, DYING and DEATH, referred to the "SECOND DEATH" *REVELATION 21:8 in the lake of fire

Sorry dear sister, it seems like God's Word disagrees with you. Does this not worry you?

Something to pray about. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

2. The Greek verb tenses and plynotes support to "ongoing" is supportive of the use of the kjv's application to commandments and not washing of robes.

If that's the case then why does the kjv translate the same root word as 'washed' in the same exact context applied to overcomers?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:14)

Strong's Greek: 4150. πλύνω (plunó) -- to wash

Can we say that God will institute a Plunocracy for a time?

And if it's not too much trouble, pithy, terse and/or logical answers are greatly appreciated.

 

[agapelove]

Note: see κόλασις "kolasis" the Greek Lexicon shows that out of the three possible definitions provided that MATTHEW 25:46's definition is applied to "PUNISHMENT" with context to the "WICKED.

What??? You are looking at one synonym of kolasis and discounting the TONE of the entire word. You saw for yourself that the BEST, most ACCURATE translation of kolasis is correction. WHY? You can not take away from the fact that kolasis will always mean punishment from a correctional, restorative sense no matter what the context is.

I can do this with the English word "punishment" as well. Look it up on dictionary.com. What is the third synonym that pops up? DISCIPLINE! Correction is not the opposite of punishment, they work together to form the same word: kolasis.

I am sorry that you wasted your time going so in depth with this but the grounds of your argument are extremely weak.

No I still maintain every scripture you posted was irrelevant and posted why earlier. Your interpretation of and application to "ALL MADE ALIVE" here is also to the "Saints" through the blood of JESUS the key Word to look at here in CORINTIANS is "IN CHRIST". It's application is not to the wicked who reject the Gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. The scripture you quoting here says no where that all the wicked will receive everlasting life. You misquoting the scriptures.

You say all my scriptures are irrelevant but you only care to explain why you think that way for one of them.

Goodness the scriptures say no such thing. Detailed scripture response here click me

The response you linked does not even address the passages from Revelations I am referring to. You say the wicked are destroyed but Revelations claims they are outside the city. If John really believed there were no more wicked people in the New Jerusalem, then much of what he is saying in Revelations is redundant and unnecessary....

Ok please post me a single scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked after the second coming are not destroyed at the coming of JESUS and come out of the lake of fire

...........

I'm seeing a pattern that many of the other participants in this thread may also notice. You seem to avoid responding to the challenging questions and ideas that we bring up and would rather dig up dead end arguments. I have humbly answered this request of yours about three times now.

Sorry dear sister, it seems like God's Word disagrees with you. Does this not worry you?

No. In fact I am liberated by being a Universalist. I am happier and closer to God than I have ever been before. Thank you for your concern though.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Note: see κόλασις "kolasis" the Greek Lexicon shows that out of the three possible definitions provided that MATTHEW 25:46's definition is applied to "PUNISHMENT" with context to the "WICKED.

Your response...

What??? You are looking at one synonym of kolasis and discounting the TONE of the entire word. You saw for yourself that the BEST, most ACCURATE translation of kolasis is correction. WHY? You can not take away from the fact that kolasis will always mean punishment from a correctional, restorative sense no matter what the context is. I can do this with the English word "punishment" as well. Look it up on dictionary.com. What is the third synonym that pops up? DISCIPLINE! Correction is not the opposite of punishment, they work together to form the same word: kolasis.
I am sorry that you wasted your time going so in depth with this but the grounds of your argument are extremely weak.

Goodness, sorry but what a load of nonsense but let me explain why? You do know that GREEK and HEBREWS word are not the same as the English language right and you cannot do the same as I have been sharing with you in the English right? Why? Because the HEBREW and the GREEK have multiple meanings for the same words. It is the scripture and chapter contexts which they are applied that determine meaning and application. I spent some time providing you the context to help show interpretation to the passage it was used in. You have it back the front and this is your problem. Your looking at the GREEK and HEBREW language the same an the ENGLISH language and it is not. CONTEXT in these languages because of multiple word definition in the GREEK and ENGLISH always determine word meaning and application. You do not have to believe me go google it for yourself. I also provided not only the contextual support within the passage of discussion but the Greek Lexical support that agreed with everything I shared with you as applied to MATTHEW 25:46 with the correct definition being to "punishment" context to the wicked at the second coming. Sorry dear friend, this is posted in love but your simply wrong and have no idea what your talking about. I suggest you do a bit more research into the GREEK and HEBREW.

You say all my scriptures are irrelevant but you only care to explain why you think that way for one of them

Not really I posted in the earlier post that most of your scriptures you provided was in application to the wicked who repent and turn to God pre second coming. These scriptures were not relevant to my discussion with you which was to what happens to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. In the last post you provided a specific example from 1 CORINTHIANS 15 which I addressed as this was the scripture you brought up in your post. This scripture as shown was in reference to "believers" who are "in Christ". Not the unrepentant wicked who are not "in christ".

The response you linked does not even address the passages from Revelations I am referring to. You say the wicked are destroyed but Revelations claims they are outside the city. If John really believed there were no more wicked people in the New Jerusalem, then much of what he is saying in Revelations is redundant and unnecessary....

Nonsense. I posted the scriptures to you earlier that all show that the wicked are destroyed with death, perish what is it you do not understand? If they are outside the city and the lake of fire is the "SECOND DEATH" *REVELATION 21:8 and all the other scriptures I provided you say the same thing in regards to what happens to the unrepentant wicked at the second coming * HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 21:8; REVELATION 22:11-12, then what is it you did not understand?

I'm seeing a pattern that many of the other participants in this thread may also notice. You seem to avoid responding to the challenging questions and ideas that we bring up and would rather dig up dead end arguments. I have humbly answered this request of yours about three times now. No. In fact I am liberated by being a Universalist. I am happier and closer to God than I have ever been before. Thank you for your concern though.

Now please be honest. After reading my post please tell me what question of yours has not been clearly answered in my posts shared with you and please prove to me from the scirptures alone which we will examine in detail together if your claims are true or not true. So far everything that you have provided here has been proven to not be biblical. I am sorry but it seems to me the pattern I see is that when the truth is presented from the Word of God to those who do not agree with it many close their eye instead of addressing the content provided which if shown to be true can be a blessing to those who receive God's Word. It is sad that many instead of examining what they believe or when they are challenged with the scriptures as to what they believe start making unfounded claims and the royal sorry I am not interested hand waive. At least God's faithful Bareans seach the scriptures to see if these things were true or not. Seems more people have itching ears wanting to hold on to the feel good teachings of men instead of wanting to know the truth of Gods' Word. Ok thanks for sharing. I wish you only well.

 

[agapelove]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Note: see κόλασις "kolasis" the Greek Lexicon shows that out of the three possible definitions provided that MATTHEW 25:46's definition is applied to "PUNISHMENT" with context to the "WICKED.

You are essentially sharing 3 definitions that mean the same thing? Is "punishment" not the same thing as "penalty"? How are these actually different definitions in hindsight? Can "punishment" not be corrective? Why do some parents punish their children when they do something wrong? Therefore your argument that the definition changes with the context is invalid...

I am aware that there are some Greek words that carry different meanings but this is not one of them.

Not really I posted in the earlier post that most of your scriptures you provided was in application to the wicked who repent and turn to God pre second coming.

You are adding words to the scripture now. Many of the passages I shared clearly state All. Period. Not "all who repent before they die". If this is pre-second-coming then the saints have not yet been separated from the wicked. I interpret it as ALL = The Wicked + The Saints. Also you still have not addressed the word "forever"?

Nonsense. I posted the scriptures to you earlier that all show that the wicked are destroyed with death, perish what is it you do not understand? HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 21:8; REVELATION 22:11-12, then what is it you did not understand?

You keep copy and pasting the same passages but I have literally addressed why I see them as insufficient. I do not apply the word "destroyed" to the people, I apply them to the wickedness inside them.

I am sorry but it seems to me the pattern I see is that when the truth is presented from the Word of God to those who do not agree with it many close their eye instead of addressing the content provided which if shown to be true can be a blessing to those who receive God's Word. It is sad that many instead of examining what they believe or when they are challenged with the scriptures as to what they believe start making unfounded claims and the royal sorry I am not interested hand waive. At least God's faithful Bareans seach the scriptures to see if these things were true or not. Seems more people have itching ears wanting to hold on to the feel good teachings of men instead of wanting to know the truth of Gods' Word. Ok thanks for sharing. I wish you only well.

No, my eyes have been open this whole time thank you. I am earnestly and humbly studying the word of God every day and I truly believe that this is a revelation from Him. I have only recently adopted the doctrine of Universalism after LONG, DILIGENT consideration, but there are MANY who have come before me (including many early Christians, theologians, and philosophers).

We are not choosing the feel good teachings of men. We are choosing the feel good teachings of God. After all, it is the GOOD NEWS. How is the annihilation of God's good creation which you so readily embrace "good news"?

 

[ClementofA]

The Greek meaning of DESTROYED was also shared with you here yet you still deny it and post links to the teachings of men that deny the very Words of God.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5351: φθείρω

Yet here you are posting the teachings of a man named Thayer. So it's okay for you to do it, but not for others? Double standard? Do as i say, not as i do?

As i said, Thayer does not support your viewpoint.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[ClementofA]

Then we have God's Word that says that the wicked are DESTROYED at the second coming. I have already provided the scriptures on what happens to the wicked at the second coming. They are destroyed and do not enter God's KINGDOM. 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; HEBREWS 10:26-39; MATTHEW 25:31-41; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 20:14-15; EZEKIEL 18:4; MATTHEW 7:21-23

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Matthew 7:21-23
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Heb.10:26-27:
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Then we have many other scriptures. A few posted here...

And all have been answered here before, some dozens of times, as a search via the search engine here will prove for those who are actually interested in learning about universalism. Here i'll just address this one for now:

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10
[6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU;
[7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS,
[8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST:
[9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER;
[10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY.

2 Thess.1:[9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER;

What's the difference between destruction and everlasting destruction?

The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias,
often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible.
Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

Перевод ὄλεθρος с греческого на все языки

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

Compare that above statement to:

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5). He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Here we see destruction was temporary:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)



Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[mmksparbud]

I do the same as well. I did not come to the conclusion of universalism without the help of God.

I am not ignoring the verses that say the opposite, but rather I am acknowledging that "Mercy triumphs" over them. God tells us that he is free to relent even when judgment is promised (Hos 11, Jonah 1:1, 3:4, 10, 4:2, 11.) Should I be upset if He decides to change his mind, or decides to break his promise? If Jesus always tell us to side with mercy and kindness, then that is what I will do! I give God the freedom to pursue his sheep "until they are found". I give God the freedom to play out history as long as it takes until "every knee will bow", "all things will be restored/reconciled", "all will be made alive", and everything will be "summed up in Christ".

Goodnight! I hope to chat more with you another day.

Had a huge nap attack---do that some times where all I can do is sleep!

Now---do you give God the right to annihilate all the sinners and keep His word?

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Idk if stoning was tantamount to being cut off, it was stoning? I could be wrong. Being cut off was more like the divorce decree nisi that God took out against Ephraim. But then Jesus came to seek and save the lost, to reconcile the divorcee with God the ex-husband, and that was achieved in principle at Calvary when God reconciled the whole world to Him.

So again, being cut off from God is a stage that the spiritually adulterous (idolatrous) need to go through before reconciliation occurs.

There were crimes which were punished by stoning and then there were other crimes which were punished by stoning and being cut off from the people. Not to review a different conversation but again the context was the intended severity of the warning presented in Hebrews 10:28-29.

I also don’t see it so much as reconciling the divorcee, because that would be more like a renewal of the old covenant, but rather a new covenant with a new bride, in light of the need to be born again as a condition. Romans 7:1-6 in context where obviously God hasn’t died but rather the terms of the covenant were nullified at death (Galatians 2:20)

I don’t think we disagree on that? Really I think we are in agreement up to the point where the old self is destroyed and reborn and whether everything that is destroyed will be reborn?

My concept of “second death = non existence” was born when hearing someone talk about how the second death was eternal life in pain and thinking that really didn’t even make sense for what the word meant. I believe the body will perish, the soul will be judged, and the spirit is the life source from God. When we are in the spirit it is a beautiful thing but none of it is “ours” so how can we expect to keep it like it’s our due? It’s entirely grace, both given to us, and flowing through us.

 

[agapelove]

Had a huge nap attack---do that some times where all I can do is sleep!

Now---do you give God the right to annihilate all the sinners and keep His word?

Yes. God does not need my permission for anything.
I believe God will keep His word.
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

Welcome back!