THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Jord Simcha · Jul 9, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Indeed dear friend. They were bypassed because none of them say that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming.

So, do you believe them not?

LoveGodsWord · Jul 9, 2020

Jord Simcha said:
So, do you believe them not?

Indeed but none of them say that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. If you disagree I challenge you to prove to me which one does and to reconcile the scriptures I have already provided you here linked.

The Liturgist · Jul 9, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi all I have noticed in this forum that there is a handful of people going around and consistently promoting a dangerous false teaching called “Universalism” which is based on twisting and cherry picking the scriptures out of context to try and teach that God does not hold anyone accountable for sin and that all people will be eventually saved. I will post why I believe this to be a false teaching that is not biblical shortly.

Let’s first start with a definition of what the concept of Christian Universalism is.

Christian universalism refers to the idea that every human will be saved in a religious or spiritual sense. This specific idea being called universal reconciliation.

Universalism has become a popular error, disappointingly backed by intellectuals who ought to know better, like David Bentley Hart, the author of the splendid Dawkins rebuttal, The Atheist Delusion. To the chagrin of traditional Eastern Orthodox Christians, a vocal minority of Orthodox priests have followed Dr. Hart into this error (or perhaps led him into it), however I would stress the vast majority of Orthodox known to me reject it.

However, it is important that we differentiate this error from a hope for apokatastasis, which is not inherently heretical provided it is merely hoped for, in the manner of St. Gregory of Nyssa, rather than believed to be inevitable. If one hopes everyone in the end repents and is saved, at the Last Judgement, I don’t see anything wrong with that, but if one believes everyone must be saved, this is a huge soteriological mistake.

It also happens to be monergist, which makes it even more baffling that any Orthodox person at all would back it. Really, from an EO theological perspecfive based on what one finds in Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, etc, its undifferentiated from Pelagianism or for that matter Calvinism* or other monergist interpretations. And how is it that DBH et al are getting a free pass on this when poor Origen was basically anathematized for this view?**

* Viewed from a non-EO perspective, Calvinism seems much less of an error than Pelagianism or Universalism, however, the Eastern Orthodox are in my experience extremely opposed to monergism, regarding it as contrary to the Fifth Ecumenical Council, among other things, thus I would be remiss not to mention it in the context of their understanding of the issue.

** Even stranger is that Origen, while apparently anathematized for this, as far as I am aware was not anathematized for his writings on the transmigration of souls, which are quite wacky, although in his defense, not enough had been written by the third century to denounce that concept in a comprehensive way.

FineLinen · Jul 9, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Universalism has become a popular error, disappointingly backed by intellectuals who ought to know better, like David Bentley Hart, the author of the splendid Dawkins rebuttal, The Atheist Delusion. To the chagrin of traditional Eastern Orthodox Christians, a vocal minority of Orthodox priests have followed Dr. Hart into this error (or perhaps led him into it), however I would stress the vast majority of Orthodox known to me reject it.

However, it is important that we differentiate this error from a hope for apokatastasis, which is not inherently heretical provided it is merely hoped for, in the manner of St. Gregory of Nyssa, rather than believed to be inevitable. If one hopes everyone in the end repents and is saved, at the Last Judgement, I don’t see anything wrong with that, but if one believes everyone must be saved, this is a huge soteriological mistake.

Many have come to know the Greater Hope of the Restitution of all things. Age after age that Hope remains firm. An individual cannot be talked into it or out of it. Once your poor blind eyes see it, and your deaf ears are opened by the Lord of Ephphatha nothing remains "normal" again!

But, according to what I see in Hebrews 12:4-14, we now can receive our Heavenly Father's correction making us "partakers of His holiness" . . . "without which no one will see the Lord." This does not say one can procrastinate until another life.

The adversary is the one who can only promise until some later age, but never deliver on his promises. But God's grace & glorious love is succeeding now.

Welcome to the God who draws in His own good timing. Abba's grace is succeeding now, will continue to succeed in every age, and will reach every last broken son of Adam1 in the fulness of times!

But wait, there is more, much more!

Every dimension of the heavens, the earth and the underworld ultimately sings in antiphonal worship

IN the Name of all names....

"You are Lord"!

FineLinen · Jul 9, 2020

Ta panta= the all=

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..."

The Destruction Of The Wicked =

The "Destruction" of the Wicked

Shrewd Manager · Jul 9, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Universalism has become a popular error,

Is it popular? Where are these mega-churches full of universalists? Take me there.

The Liturgist said:
However, it is important that we differentiate this error from a hope for apokatastasis,

Why not repose faith in it too? Because faith is the substance of things hoped for, like the instruction manual says. Cause you can never overestimate the righteousness of God, right? Put your stock in it, friend.

By the grace of God I have faith in the restoration of all things, the total victory of Christ. Wow, that's the power gospel - glad tidings of great joy for all mankind!

The Liturgist said:
If one hopes everyone in the end repents and is saved, at the Last Judgement, I don’t see anything wrong with that, but if one believes everyone must be saved, this is a huge soteriological mistake.

So you don't think much of our friend DBH's remarks that Christianity is incoherent without UR? How does the logic work then, if God wants everyone saved, so sends His son on a mission to save the whole world, and then...what? frustrated by human will, or His own supposed conflicted desire to let the human trump the divine, evil to overcome good, Adam greater than Jesus? How does that add up to 'more than conquerors'? Patently at best that view can only present a cheap petty failure of a deity who ends up bullying and thrashing refuseniks in the name of 'love'. So where is the logic in the ECT or annihilationist destinies?

Shrewd Manager · Jul 9, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Because if God will save both the Saints and the unrepentant wicked after the second coming which has already been shown not to be biblcial then there is no need for any of the above cases listed in the scriptural scenarios above thats why. It is only more evidence that the teachings of Universalism are not biblical.

Hope this helps.

It's all a case of 'can't' and 'won't' with you isn't it friend? Everything death and destruction, it's even in your 'dark knight' avatar. I hope you can see through all the doom and gloom that Jesus is the light of the world, that God is light there's no darkness in Him.

Let me ask how you feel about this scenario: you are one of several brothers, whom you love, and you have a very powerful father who insists on strict obeisance. Three of your brothers disobey, and your father promptly annihilates them. Now, do you think this might affect your relationship with your father, perhaps create a little rift?

BNR32FAN · Jul 9, 2020

FineLinen said:
Not "if"!

The entire mass lost in the flood were visited by the risen Christ of glory. The results of His visit were incredible!

"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου παν γονυ καμπσηι — hina en tōi onomati Iēsou pan gonu kampsēi).

First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω — kamptō old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα — hina

Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.

Under the earth (καταχτονιων — katachthoniōn).

Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. -A.T. Robertson Word Pictures-

this didn’t answer my question friend.

FineLinen · Jul 9, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
this didn’t answer my question friend.

What part of the post did not address your question?

1. The scope of the risen Christ's ministry to the disobedient dead from the flood?

2. The confession of all beings in all dimensions of Phil. 2 ?

FineLinen · Jul 9, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Universalism has become a popular error, disappointingly backed by intellectuals who ought to know better, like David Bentley Hart, the author of the splendid Dawkins rebuttal, The Atheist Delusion. To the chagrin of traditional Eastern Orthodox Christians, a vocal minority of Orthodox priests have followed Dr. Hart into this error (or perhaps led him into it), however I would stress the vast majority of Orthodox known to me reject it.

However, it is important that we differentiate this error from a hope for apokatastasis, which is not inherently heretical provided it is merely hoped for, in the manner of St. Gregory of Nyssa, rather than believed to be inevitable. If one hopes everyone in the end repents and is saved, at the Last Judgement, I don’t see anything wrong with that, but if one believes everyone must be saved, this is a huge soteriological mistake.

Although John Wesley is not on record as a universalist, he was greatly influenced by the Moravians, many of whom were universalists. He quoted from Sixteen Discourses (Moravian Literature), the following statement, “By his (Christ’s) name, all can and shall obtain life and salvation.” One of Wesley’s intimate friends, Peter Bohler wrote: “All the damned souls shall yet be brought up out of hell.” (Bohler was made the Bishop of American Moravians, next in rank to Zinzendorf).

The Reformer Martin Luther had hope for all. In his letter to Hanseu Von Rechenberg in 1522, Luther wrote: "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." Bengel's book, Gnomon, quotes Luther's exposition of Hosea as accepting the idea that Christ appeared to souls of some who in the time of Noah had been unbelieving, that they might recognize that their sins were forgiven through His sacrifice.

... Since 1800 this situation has entirely changed, and no traditional doctrine has been so widely abandoned as that of eternal punishment. Its advocates among theologians today must be fewer than ever before.... Among the less conservative, universal salvation, either as hope or as dogma, is now so widely accepted that many theologians assume it virtually without argument." --Richard J. Bauckham, lecturer in the history of Christian thought at the University of Manchester

Dr. J.I. Packer has noted that Universalism "has in this century quietly become part of the orthodoxy of many Christian thinkers and groups."

D. B. Eller asserts in the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology that it is clear that "Universalism, in a variety of forms, continues to have appeal for contemporary faith, in both liberal and conservative circles."

"We have not an impotent Father, or a disappointed Christ, or a defeated Holy Ghost, as is so commonly preached; but an omnipotent Father, and all-victorious Christ, and an almighty Holy Spirit, able to break the hardest of heart and subdue the stoutest will." Dr. E.W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible

Der Alte · Jul 9, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
It's all a case of 'can't' and 'won't' with you isn't it friend? Everything death and destruction, it's even in your 'dark knight' avatar. I hope you can see through all the doom and gloom that Jesus is the light of the world, that God is light there's no darkness in Him.
Let me ask how you feel about this scenario: you are one of several brothers, whom you love, and you have a very powerful father who insists on strict obeisance. Three of your brothers disobey, and your father promptly annihilates them. Now, do you think this might affect your relationship with your father, perhaps create a little rift?

A reverse parable "Here is a situation with brothers in this life so the same situation must exist in the kingdom of God." But that ain't what scripture says.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Der Alte · Jul 9, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
What part of the post did not address your question?
1. The scope of the risen Christ's ministry to the disobedient dead from the flood?
2. The confession of all beings in all dimensions of Phil. 2 ?

WRONG! If Jesus was preaching to the dead in the flood then His ministry was a failure because only 8 were saved and they were alive not dead.

Der Alte · Jul 9, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
John Wesley
Martin Luther
--Richard J. Bauckham,
Dr. J.I. Packer
D. B. Eller
Dr. E.W. Bullinger,

All noted scholars but their unsupported opinions are no more compelling than the scribbles on a public facility wall.

FineLinen · Jul 9, 2020

Uses of the Greek word "apollumi" =

On the following pages you will see the many ways the word "apollumi" is used in the New Testament. You will see that sometimes it is translated "lost" such as in the "lost" sheep, when the sheep was alive. In other places, the same word, "apollumi," is translated "perish" or "destroyed" and the implication in these last two instances is that the individual is dead.

But the same word, "apollumi," CANNOT mean "to be alive" in some instances AND "to be dead" in other instances. In other words, the same word cannot mean both "death" and "life."

The "Destruction" of the Wicked

LoveGodsWord · Jul 9, 2020

FineLinen said:
Uses of the Greek word "apollumi" =

On the following pages you will see the many ways the word "apollumi" is used in the New Testament. You will see that sometimes it is translated "lost" such as in the "lost" sheep, when the sheep was alive. In other places, the same word, "apollumi," is translated "perish" or "destroyed" and the implication in these last two instances is that the individual is dead.

But the same word, "apollumi," CANNOT mean "to be alive" in some instances AND "to be dead" in other instances. In other words, the same word cannot mean both "death" and "life."

The "Destruction" of the Wicked

This is not a very sensible argument dear Fine but let me simply explain why. The reason why your argument is useless to this conversation is that it is the context of the Greek to scripture application that determines its meaning not the word in isolation to context. The Greek and Hebrew langauge and word meaning are normally multiple unlike the english and have many meaning. It is the context that determines word definitions not the word in isolation of context. This is what you do not seem to understand.

Go Google if what I am sharing with you or not. You do understand Greek as shown here in this thread more than a few times now. This is only shared as a correction in brotherly love and as I help to you. You need to base any arguments your trying to make around the scripture and the word your applying it to. You have failed to do that here or have you mentioned that there are other words that also have the same meaning of to be destroyed, destruction, perish etc, which makes your post misleading to those who do not know or understand the Greek or Hebrew e.g.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 [7], And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,[8], In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[9], Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction [
ὄλεθρος; olethros] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Hope this is helpful.

FineLinen · Jul 9, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
This is not a very sensible argument dear Fine but let me simply explain why....

It will be to your enhancement of our Father's glorious purpose within Himself to spend less time explaining and more beholding Him !

LoveGodsWord · Jul 9, 2020

LoveGodsWord wrote: I'm wondering why you think Satan and one third of heavens angels were cast out of heaven for their rebellion. Why was Adam and Eve given a test of faith with regard to the forbidden tree? And why God would allow six thousand years of sin with all of it's unimaginable suffering on His creation, and in the end save everyone, those with faith, and those without faith? Why then is God allowing sin to rein from the time that He created the angles until now?

Now all of the above are based on the scriptures but I do not believe fit into the teachings of Universalism. Would anyone care to address these questions? I came across these questions from a friend in another thread but I was interested in your view and how you would answer these questions from a Universalists point of view.

Your response here...

Shrewd Manager said:
Why not?

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Because if God will save both the Saints and the unrepentant wicked after the second coming which has already been shown not to be biblcial then there is no need for any of the above cases listed in the scriptural scenarios above thats why. It is only more evidence that the teachings of Universalism are not biblical.

Your response here...

Shrewd Manager said:
It's all a case of 'can't' and 'won't' with you isn't it friend? Everything death and destruction, it's even in your 'dark knight' avatar. I hope you can see through all the doom and gloom that Jesus is the light of the world, that God is light there's no darkness in Him.

No not at all. I simply believe the scriptures already shared with you that are God's Word not my words but God's. You are free to believe as you wish. What you believe my avatar has to do with the topic of discussion I do not know. For me God tells us to put on the whole armour of God do you know what they are?

Shrewd Manager said:
Let me ask how you feel about this scenario: you are one of several brothers, whom you love, and you have a very powerful father who insists on strict obeisance. Three of your brothers disobey, and your father promptly annihilates them. Now, do you think this might affect your relationship with your father, perhaps create a little rift?

Why would I answer your questions when you are yet to answer mine? I will be most happy to answer your questions when you answer mine as I did ask them to you first and all you have done in return is to ignore them and talk about my avatar.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed dear friend.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 9, 2020

FineLinen said:
It will be to your enhancement of our Father's glorious purpose within Himself to spend less time explaining and more beholding Him !

We only behold him through his Word dear Fine. Not by beholding Winnie the Pooh (Universalism).

FineLinen · Jul 9, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
We only behold him through his Word dear Fine. Not by beholding Winnie the Pooh (Universalism).

The properties of the Word of God =

"God means what he says. What he says goes. His powerful Word is sharp as a surgeon’s scalpel, cutting through everything, whether doubt or defense, laying us open to listen and obey. Nothing and no one is impervious to God’s Word. We can’t get away from it—no matter what." -MSG-

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebr. 4:12

Quick = anakrino = separate/ investigate by intensive scrutiny.
Powerful = energes = active, energetic & effectual.
Sharper = oxus = a sharp sword.
Piercing = dikneomai = to go through and penetrate.
Dividing = to separate/ mark off limits & boundaries.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 9, 2020

FineLinen said:
The properties of the Word of God =

"God means what he says. What he says goes. His powerful Word is sharp as a surgeon’s scalpel, cutting through everything, whether doubt or defense, laying us open to listen and obey. Nothing and no one is impervious to God’s Word. We can’t get away from it—no matter what." -MSG-

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebr. 4:12

Quick = anakrino = separate/ investigate by intensive scrutiny.

Powerful = energes = active, energetic & effectual.

Sharper = oxus = a sharp sword.

Piercing = dikneomai = to go through and penetrate.

Dividing = to separate/ mark off limits & boundaries.

Indeed this is why I share God's Word with you dear Fine, as it is God's Word not mine and we should believe and follow it over the teachings of the gambling lady of second chances (Universalism). Time to leave the gambling lady of second chances. Her waters are polluted and taken from broken cisterns of death where there is no life. It is only in the living waters that are freely offered to those who drink of receive Gods' gift of grace and eternal life. This is my prayer and the invitation is given to the whole world and he that will let him come and the Spirit says come.

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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