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The False RAPTURE theory

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Spookydawg77, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    Here here.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
  2. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    Is it not true that great number will be saved during the tribulation?

    Were you saved in the past, or will you be saved during the tribulation?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
  3. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    In at least three places, it is God's wrath.

    I'm sorry to tell you this, but at least once during the opening of the seals, people will die.

    "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." -Rev. 6:7-8 (KJV)

    Who is opening the seals, Jesus or the devil?

    At least once, once during the trumpet judgments, people will die.

    "And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." -Rev. 8:10-11 (KJV)

    Who sounds the trumpets, angels or Satan?

    I give you the scripture again.

    And, at the current population of the world, between the 4th seal and the trumpet judgments, at least half of the world's population will die.

    And these events happen before Satan is turned loose, or before the beast, false prophet, and before the anti-Chris is revealed.

    How many of those are Christian?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  4. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    John Gill comments:

    shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven;
    he shall come in the same flesh, in the same human nature; he shall come in the clouds of heaven, and shall be attended with his mighty angels, as he now was; he shall descend himself in person, as he now ascended in person; and as he went up with a shout, and with the sound of a trumpet, see ( Psalms 47:5 ) so he shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God; and, it may be, he shall descend upon the very spot from whence he ascended; see ( Zechariah 14:4 ) and it is a notion of the Jews, that the resurrection of the Israelites will be there: they say, that

    ``when the dead shall live, the Mount of Olives shall be cleaved asunder, and all the dead of Israel shall come out from under it; yea, even the righteous which die in captivity shall pass through a subterranean cavern, and come out from under the Mount of Olives.''


    So unless you can show me where Jesus ascended up into heaven "in flaming fire taking vengeance" or ascended up into heaven "sitting upon a white horse" you haven't proven a thing.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
  5. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    Irenaeus, who heard Polycarp preach, Polycarp was supposedly a disciple of John, wrote:

    "Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing; Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

    Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter 29

    It is still up for debate whether this passage speaks of a "rapture". But, what we can see is his teaching, rather writing, that the church would suddenly be "caught up" and then there would be such tribulation as the world has never seen.

    Cyprian wrote in his "Treatises of Cyprian":

    "We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom."

    Cyprian describes the judgments of the end times as “imminent.” And he makes his belief on the timing of the Rapture when he wrote that Christians will have an “early departure” and be “delivered” from the devastating global judgments that come during the Day of The Lord.

    It seems he also believed in a pre-trib rapture.

    Ephraim The Syrian, it appears, also held to this idea. He wrote in the "Pseudo Ephraim" (so named because there is dispute on authorship):

    "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

    Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”

    Ephraim, On the Last Times

    All three of these ECF's, give the appearance of an imminent return, and a "rapture". It is still debatable as to whether or not they did believe, but a plain reading shows they looked like they did.

    The notion that a "rapture" being a "new thing" started by John Nelson Darby is false.

    The "rapture" theory goes back to within 200 years of the early church.

    So the notion that:

    Is also false.

    It also begs the question of why did the doctrine of predestination get "lost" after the fifth century and not popularized again until the 16th century?

    Fundamentalists as early as 1878 believed it.

    "The premillennial Second Coming of Christ."

    The 1878 Niagara Creed, Point 14.


    God Bless

    Till all are one.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  6. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Ok, but I was talking about God not killing millions of believers...God certainly does judge and also kill people.
  7. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    My only point was to show that long before it gets really, really bad, people will die.

    And I do not believe that God would allow His own to perish the same as the unsaved. That's all.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
  8. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    That is one argument against a post trib rapture idea.
    God's wrath is not poured out on believers in Christ.
    But the church has always been persecuted and still is under severe persecution in various places today.

    You can not say that all believers are killed by the antichrist and beast world system of government, but many are, before Christ returns. Just because none can buy or sell, does not mean they wont be given food or won't live without being able to buy or sell.

    Some here are alive and remain until Christ returns to this earth.
    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

    Now this here, 'he is taken away' is referring to Archangel Michael who is a restrainer of Satan, all through history. Many folk believe this is the rapture of believers. However, if Paul had meant believers, then why say 'he'. And he here is not the Holy Spirit, why not have said the Spirit?
    Besides that, Christ said He would never leave His people. And people are saved during the great tribulation as it says a vast multitude wash their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. But if he means the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, then does he come back again spiritually to be in the way again? Makes no sense. God's Spirit is active in the world during this time of the tribulation as many are saved.

    2 thessalonians 2

    1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
    6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

    8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    And then Christians are told to wait for His Son from heaven who delivers us from God's wrath. Now this is the return of Christ, which Paul teaches of in 1 Thessalonians 2 and 2 Thessalonians 2.

    1 Thessalonians 1
    9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    1 Thessalonians 2, our 'rest' comes only with His revealing in flaming fire when He is revealed from heaven taking vengeance. Yet many believers say their rest comes with a secret rapture before enduring tribulations.

    3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other,

    4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

    which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

    10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
  9. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    How can you say that?

    If we (Christians) are here during this time, as a plain reading of the seals and trumpet judgments show, about half of the world's population will die. And is according to scripture, not my word, but God's.

    Are you going to look me straight in the eye and say none of them are "Christians"?

    And again, I refer back to Acts 1:9-11 as opposed to 2 Thes. 1:7-8 and 2 Thes 2 and Rev. 19.

    After chapter 4 of Revelation, the church is not mentioned again.

    I still see no reason to believe the church will endure anything that is mentioned about the tribulation period.

    Sorry, we can debate the "rapture" until the cows come home. Just like how generations before us.

    It has been, and always will be, a debatable subject.

    And in my 43 years of being a Christian, I've yet to see any evidence to change my mind.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
  10. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Study Daniel 7, does not the scripture there have to agree with the NT eschatology also?
    For a time and times and half a time, the saints are given into the hands of the antichrist beast. That is the 3.5 years also mentioned in Revelation of severe tribulations.

    19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

    21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,

    22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

    23 “Thus he said:

    ‘The fourth beast shall be
    A fourth kingdom on earth,
    Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
    And shall devour the whole earth,
    Trample it and break it in pieces.
    24 The ten horns are ten kings
    Who shall arise from this kingdom.
    And another shall rise after them;
    He shall be different from the first ones,
    And shall subdue three kings.
    25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
    Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
    And shall intend to change times and law.
    Then the saints shall be given into his hand

    For a time and times and half a time.

    26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
    And they shall take away his dominion,
    To consume and destroy it forever.

    27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
    And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
    Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
    His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
    And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

    v27 is still future
  11. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    While I hold to a pre tribulation rapture - that does not mean that I am not open to a mid-7 year rapture. What I stand strongest against is the idea of a post 7 year rapture.

    No man knows the day that the Lord will return. Only the Father knows that.

    Yet - if I am here when the anti Christ sets himself up in the temple - I will shout to all who can hear me that the Lord will return and put an end to the anti Christ's kingdom in 1260 days.

    That won't happen of course. The simple reason is that I will not be here to tell anyone. I am not destined to go through the wrath of God which is the tribulation.

    The rapture is a secret event as to the time of it's occurrence. The coming of the Lord in glory on the other hand is an event which has been clearly forecast as to the time of it's occurrence.

    As with a lot of end time speculation - I could be wrong in this I suppose. But I think it makes the most sense to see the two comings as separate events.

    One thing I'm pretty sure of though is that this drumbeat I often hear about some extreme danger with believing in a pretrib rapture is a lot of bologna.
  12. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    There is a remnant that comes out of the great Tribulation period.

    Prime scripture is the martyred saints seen under the throne. (cf. Rev. 6:9)

    Now first off, I do hold to "traditional" Dispensational theology when talking on the "rapture".

    So, in 43 years, I have not changed my position once.

    I do not believe any of the redeemed, those "in Christ", will have to endure the tribulation period, period.

    I believe that after chapter 4 of Revelation, it is nothing but God's wrath pored out on an unsaved, unrepentant world.

    Now, like I said, we can debate this subject as long as you want, but in the end, you know as well as I do, it's not going to accomplish anything. This subject has been debated for how long without any resolve?

    I like you as a friend in Christ, I have supported you in many debates in Soteriology. And I wish to remain friends.

    Since it comes down to the point that anybody like me, who holds to a pre-millennial "rapture" are looked down on and regarded as darn near to the point that we are considered as teaching heresy, I will bow out gracefully.

    I wish you well, I wish you blessings.

    I know when to say when, and this is darn near the point. So before things get out of hand, I'll take my pre-trib, pre-millennial, rapture theology and leave.

    And besides that, I have a dear, very dear Uncle who passed away early Saturday morning and my brother and I have been asked to do the services. I have to prepare for that.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  13. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Sure, I am not trying to be unfriendly either.

    A few quick examples, I have other beliefs you would likely consider odd or wrong.
    One is, the earth is flat. The sun and moon are lights in the sky. The heavenly bodies have spirituality such as they are celestial beings, not other stars and planets like all the science fiction shows and Nasa proclaims. Man never walked on the moon.
    The stars will fall to the earth, when Christ returns, and be shown for what they are, when He comes to gather His elect from the earth and the heaven. Christ brings with Him all those in Him who died and are in heaven and reunites us all for the 1000 year reign on this earth. Sun and moon will go dark, stars fall to earth, their purpose is over, the Lamb is the Light. People will see this in their flesh, the coming of Christ, even though the sun, moon, stars all go black as night.

    24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

    The Nephilim were the offspring of fallen angels who descended on Mount Hermon in the days of Jared. The took for them human females for wives and taught men how to do evil things. The women bore to them the giants, and they built all the enduring mighty humongous stone works all over the earth.
    The Book of Enoch: The Book of Enoch: Chapter VI.

    The Holy Spirit still gifts His people spiritually with gifts. They are for the building up of the body. That includes all the gifts, no cessationism. For example many say when the perfect comes the imperfect will pass away, the perfect being the bible. But Paul is speaking of Christ coming, when we will see Him face to face. Until that time, Christ sends to us the Holy Spirit to be with us and in us, which He said, when He goes away, which He did, He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth. Some people however resist the Holy Spirit, since this is not forced truth but truth that is taught and revealed.
    He that believes in Me, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water...

    There are a lot of wolves in among the sheep, seeking to create their own disciples after themselves.
    Just because someone says they are a believer and in a position of 'authority' does not mean they are born of God automatically because they claim to believe, you can not know their heart or their innermost thoughts. Judas was not a believer in Christ, and Judas was a devil and Judas demonstrates God is sovereign over who actually is saved.

    No water baptism to be saved. When Christ said he that believes and is baptised shall be saved, He meant to be baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, for by one Spirit we are baptized into one body. This regeneration into Christ, believing and being baptized by the Spirit naturally goes together accomplished by the Holy Spirit as it is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God., that includes your faith being God's gift. John said he baptized with water, but Christ will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire (power). He that believes not shall be condemned.

    God regenerates young children and infants before their death, so they do not die in hell.
    Infant water baptism for children of believers is not a problem, the children are saved regardless, if they die. Paul says the children of a believing parent are holy.

    I have taken heat, pressure, and strong words written against me for all these beliefs on this forum and elsewhere, including friends and family. Most certainly some have even told me I am unsaved. Ran into that at a former job because I have not been water baptised with total immersion as an adult, sang songs and worshipped God with musical instruments and believed in God healing supernaturally for today.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  14. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    The only problem I have with this is taking non canonical books for truth.

    If we take Enoch, as is, and believe what it says, Methuselah lived until the day God shut the doors of the ark.

    According to the book of Enoch, the antediluvians were as tall as the ark was long. Some 450'.

    The book of Enoch says:

    "Whose stature was each three hundred cubits." -Enoch 7:2

    How long was the ark Noah built?

    "And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits." -Gen. 6:15 (KJV)

    One cubit equals 1.5 feet. The Ark was 450 feet long.

    How tall were the antediluvians? 300 cubits times 1.5 feet equals 450 feet tall.

    The antediluvians were as tall as the ark was long.

    If you take the book of Enoch as written, we also find out the two sorcerers in Pharaoh's court, Jannes and Jambres, were already known to Moses because he had had a run in with them while on the run when he fled.

    I might read for information's sake, but I don't accept what it teaches.

    While your at it, perhaps you should also read "The Apocalypse of Peter" and "Apocalypse of Paul". They both share some vivid images of what it would be like to be in hell.

    From: The Apocalypse of Peter":

    "Then shall men and women come unto the place prepared for them. By their tongues wherewith they have blasphemed the way of righteousness shall they be hanged up. There is spread under them unquenchable fire, that they escape it not.

    Behold, another place: therein is a pit, great and full (of . . ) In it are they that have denied righteousness: and angels of punishment chastise them and there do they kindle upon them the fire of their torment.

    And again behold [two: corrupt] women: they hang them up by their neck and by their hair; they shall cast them into the pit. These are they which plaited their hair, not for good (or, not to make them beautiful) but to turn them to fornication, that they might ensnare the souls of men unto perdition. And the men that lay with them in fornication shall be hung by their loins in that place of fire; and they shall say one to another: We knew not that we should come unto everlasting punishment."


    I was with you up until this point.

    I have been to seminary. I am an ordained deacon and an elder. I have been licesensed to preach. But I was told here recently that the passage you are referring to has no bearing for Christians today. In John 16 where Jesus gave the promise of the coming of the "Comforter" that was Jesus passing His authority to the disciples, and the Holy Spirit would guide the disciples to all truth.


    Again, no argument from me.

    Minor difference, but nothing to get into it about. Baptists and Reformers believe about the same thing, regeneration precedes everything, righteousness and justification are imputed and inseparable, and sanctification is a lifelong process.

    Minor difference, but it may be in the way the sentence came out.

    My mother came from a church that practiced "sprinkling". But, when she started attending a Baptist church, conviction led her to be baptized by immersion. But, I still don't see that being a problem.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  15. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    I still have zero problem with tall giants being nephilim who have built the huge stone works all over the earth. But of course how tall and big they were is the question.
    All those giant stones were cut from the bedrock and were to be moved into place, and many other unexplainable examples of huge stone works.

    And perhaps the builders were forced to stop by the flood, or another destruction orchestrated by God. We read in Enoch God forced the first giants to kill each other, while the fallen angels watched.

    Gigantic Horizontally Lying Stones Of Ancient City Of Baalbek | Ancient Pages


    Did you add to my post?
    Where did your bolded text come from, where you responded with Bull Crap?
    It just reaqds as if I wrote that in my original post.

    Here was mine

    'The Holy Spirit still gifts His people spiritually with gifts. They are for the building up of the body. That includes all the gifts, no cessationism. For example many say when the perfect comes the imperfect will pass away, the perfect being the bible. But Paul is speaking of Christ coming, when we will see Him face to face. Until that time, Christ sends to us the Holy Spirit to be with us and in us, which He said, when He goes away, which He did, He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth. Some people however resist the Holy Spirit, since this is not forced truth but truth that is taught and revealed.
    He that believes in Me, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water...'

    'These three ideas go together. You quote John 16, but to whom is Jesus speaking when He promises that that "YOU" will be led into all truth? He is not speaking to any individual Christian. The word "you" in these verses means the Apostles. He was giving specific authority and gifts of understanding to the Apostles. Nowhere in Scripture is there the idea that the individual is greater, smarter, and more learned than the leadership of the congregation of believers (aka "church"). It is the Church which Jesus said that we are to listen to.'

    So you do not believe the Holy Spirit guides individual christians into all truth? and only did this for the apostles?, Or are you bringing in someone else's words?
    Being a reformed person, I would expect you to believe those drawn are those whom the Holy Spirit teaches and are those who then learn from the Holy Spirit all truth they need to know.
  16. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Does God exaggerate the height and strength of these giants?
    Were the Nephilim seen in the land by the spies giant sized and they like grasshoppers?
    Or did these giants
    really exist.
    Did mere men carve
    and cut with great precision and move those huge stone blocks? They had to be cut down, and then cut underneath to free them from the rock.
    Ancient Israel and Moses knew of and saw the giants. This was not in doubt by them, as God reminds them of what He did for them.
    The giants came in different sizes, and at different times, some before, some after the flood.

    Amos 2:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

    8 They lie down by every altar on clothes taken in pledge,
    And drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.

    9 “Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them,
    Whose height was like the height of the cedars,
    And he was as strong as the oaks;
    Yet I destroyed his fruit above
    And his roots beneath.

    10 Also it was I who brought you up from the land of Egypt,
    And led you forty years through the wilderness,
    To possess the land of the Amorite.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  17. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    Be that asi t may, it does not explain how it is we can find dinosaurs, rather fossils of dinosaurs but no skeletons of them.

    That was not your post. That was what was told to me from another thread by a member of the Eastern Orthodox. I left the name out so I would not get a warning.

    Unless you support the bolded section. That was not your post and I did not add to it.

    Before you jump all over me, please read what I said first:

    Now, where did I say the Holy Spirit would not guide us to all truth?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
  18. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Thanks for clarifying this. It would have been out of your character, but I wanted to know.

    No skeletons of dinosaurs, or do you mean no skeletons of giants?
    Perhaps this, there were not so many of them, Enoch mentions 400 only or so thereabouts, of the first set of giants.
    God may have utterly destroyed them so no evidence can be found.

    As it says, God destroyed them to their roots, so I always read that as He wiped all physical trace of them out completely.

    And we still have not discovered Noah's ark but it was real too.
    Which is also one reason they built with stone. Stone endures while all other things rot away, and they knew that, and they wanted to leave their legacy, their mark on the earth. God blasted and destroyed much of all the ancient stone works they made, turning them into ruinous heaps of stone work.
    The work they did was precise and very finely crafted. If you look at some videos on youtube and listen to people describe these things appear to have been blasted with explosives, they call it a cataclysmic destruction all over the earth, thousands of years ago, occured to all these stone works, or become melted - vitrified stone.
    The Mystery of the Vitrified Forts
    Personally I believe God sent His angels to destroy all these works of the Nephilim, or did it Himself.

    Amos 2:9
    “Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them, Whose height was like the height of the cedars, And he was as strong as the oaks; Yet I destroyed his fruit above And his roots beneath.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  19. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    I was not aware that there is any scripture that gives us a number for the antediluvians. To the best of my knowledge, it doesn't.

    "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." -Gen. 6:4 (KJV)

    Like I said, I have read Enoch, but I will not take on the same authority as scriptures. That is why I showed you where Enoch gives us the height of the antediluvians.

    You are free to do as you please, but if your a "Calvinist", you go against what they believe as far as scripture. You are taking the book of Enoch as fact. I do not. Like I said, I have read it, its good information, but I would not teach it for fact. Sorry.

    "The writer of this work is unknown. It is based on the biblical character Enoch who is listed in Genesis as the great-grandfather of Noah and was noted as the "seventh from Adam" (Jude 1:14). Along with Elijah and Jesus, Enoch is noted as leaving this world alive and ascending to God. Genesis 5:24 says, "Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him." Hebrews 11:5 reiterates that Enoch did not die but was rather taken up by God.

    Because the Book of Enoch is quoted in Jude, some have wondered whether it should be considered a book of the Bible. However, the following reasons stand against this view. First, the Book of Enoch existed before the New Testament period and was not accepted as authoritative by the Jewish leaders who affirmed the Old Testament writings.

    Second, the Book of Enoch was not authored by the biblical Enoch. While there are biblical books whose author is unknown, there is no biblical book whose authorship is knowingly attributed to a false author.

    Third, quoting a book in the New Testament does not require that the book be considered part of the Bible. For example, Paul quoted Greek poets (Acts 17; Titus 1:12) and surely did not consider these sources "biblical sources" or inspired. He instead used these sources to illustrate an idea with his audience. The same was true of Jude's use of Enoch. His Jewish readers would have been familiar with the Book of Enoch. Jude used this quotation concerning judgment as a warning to his readers, but did not do so to help prove that the Book of Enoch should be in the Bible.

    Instead, the Book of Enoch is to be treated like other historical writings. Some of its information is true and some is not. It can be helpful in research, but is not inspired as Scripture."


    He certainly may have destroyed them, but...even at that, there would have been other evidence.

    That is also debatable. I for one, believe its on Mt. Ararat. We just cannot get to it currently.

    Was it also the antediluvians who built and erected the statues on Easter Island?

    Recent discoveries has shown that for many years, scientists have only examined the portion that was exposed above ground.

    Now, that have dug some out and found that the statues are a lot bigger than originally thought.

    Here I have to disagree.

    John Gill comments:

    Amos 2:9

    Yet destroyed I the Amorite before them
    Here the Lord by the prophet reckons up the many favours and blessings he had bestowed upon Israel, which was an aggravation of their sins, and showed them to be guilty of great ingratitude, and a justification of him in his punishment of them he drove out the seven nations of Canaanites from before them, to make way for them, and destroyed them, of which the Amorite was a principal, and is here put for all the rest: whose height [was] like the height of the cedars;
    being both tall of stature, and in great honour and dignity with the other nations, and in very opulent and flourishing circumstances:


    You have taught me something. I did not know the antediluvians were the "Amorites".

    And that does not align with scripture. I have shown you, from your own source too, that the antediluvians were 450 feet tall. There is no cedar trees in the world that have ever grown that tall.

    In fact, the world's tallest tree, the California redwood, in 2006 was only 379.1 feet tall.


    However, I will not debate with you. You are certainly entitled to have your opinions, just as I have.

    The book of Revelation, after chapter 4, shows us that what follows is the wrath of God poured out on a unrepentant, unsaved world.

    One indication that the opening of the seals is the wrath of God is found in Revelation 6:15-17. This passage indicates that all on earth are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb caused by the opening of the sixth seal.

    "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Revelation 6:15-17, KJV)

    Bible translations for Revelation 6:17 indicate that the wrath of God has already come for all men on earth during Revelation 6:15-17.

    (The New American Standard Bible)
    ”for the great day of their wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”

    (The New King James Version)
    ”For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

    (The New Living Translation)
    ”For the great day of their wrath has come, and who will be able to survive?”

    (The New Revised Standard Version)
    ”for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

    (The Revised Standard Version)
    ”for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?”

    (The Good News Bible in Today's English Version)
    ”The terrible day of their anger is here, and who can stand up against it?”

    (World English Bible)
    ”for the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”

    (Hebrew Names Version of World English Bible)
    ”for the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”

    (Wesley's New Testament)
    ”for the day of His anger--that great day--has come, and who is able to stand?”

    (New International Version)
    ”For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

    (Young's Literal Translation)
    ”because come did the great day of His anger, and who is able to stand?”

    Why do the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hide themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains? Why do all these earth inhabitants say “to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

    They hide themselves and say this because “there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places” (Revelation 6:12-14). They know that this great environmental catastrophe is the wrath of the Lamb of God upon them, the result of the opening of the sixth seal.

    Revelation 6:15 makes it clear that all men on earth are being affected by God's wrath: “every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves”. There is no reason whatsoever for men in Christ to have to hide from God's wrath.

    If one believes the church will be on earth during Revelation 6:15-16, then one must ask why would it be necessary for men in Christ to hide from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.

    A reading of Revelation 6:12-17 will make it obvious that the wrath of God is being poured out upon all the inhabitants of the earth. It is impossible for the church to be on earth during this time.

    And like I said, it is my opinion that when speaking on eschatology, the best explanation is the one offered by Dispensationalists. (minus the separation of Jews and Gentiles in God's plan, pre-mill. pre-trib, rapture)

    Most especially when you compare all the scriptures that relate to Jesus' return, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Cor.15:51-54, 1 Thess. 4:13-18 align more correctly when taking into consideration that of 2 Thess. 1:7-8, and Rev. 19:11-21.

    There is one in which He returns to gather His bride, the church, Christians, alive and dead, and one return to conquer and rule as "Lord of Lords, and King of Kings".

    That is my conviction and my belief, and it has not changed in over 40 years.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  20. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

    United States
    RAPTURE...comes from the Latin "rapturo"(?) = ~caught up, snatched, raptured

    ....a predicted event happening on the Mount of Olives near Jerusalem:

    SEE: Matthew 24: 4-28

    and B>AT His "SECOND COMING":
    See: Matthew 24: 29-31

    To the Church in Philadelphia:
    Revelations 3:10...
    10....I will also keep you from the "hour of trial" (tribulation) that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11 I am coming soon.

    Revelations 19: 11-16....The Rider on the White Horse
    11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
    12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
    13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
    14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations.
    "He will rule them with an iron scepter."
    He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
    16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

    Why "RAPTURE"?:..."encourage each other with these words..."

    1 Thessalonians 1:10
    10 and to wait for his Son from heaven,
    whom he raised from the dead—Jesus,
    who rescues us from the coming wrath.

    1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 (NIV)....RETURN - RESURRECTION - RAPTURE - REUNION
    13 Brothers (BELIEVERS), we do not want you to be ignorant about those who "fall asleep"
    (Body/Soul dies),
    or to grieve like the rest of men (UNBELIEVERS), who have no hope.
    (BELIEVERS have hope/faith in eternal life)
    14 We (BELIEVERS) believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have "fallen asleep" in (BELIEVING IN) him.
    15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we (BELIEVERS) who are still alive,
    who are left till the (SECOND) coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have "fallen asleep".
    16 For the Lord himself (Jesus) will COME DOWN from HEAVEN, (in the Resurrected "Spirit-Body" of Jesus)
    with a loud command,
    with the voice of the archangel and
    with the trumpet call of God,
    and the dead (Bodies/Souls) in Christ (BELIEVERS) will rise FIRST.
    17 After that, we (BELIEVERS) who are still alive and are left will be caught up (snatched/raptured)
    together with them ("dead in Christ") in the clouds to meet the Lord "in the air" (spiritual "heaven").
    And so we will be with the Lord forever....(body/soul/spirit reunited and in the presence of Jesus in heaven)
    18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

    1 Corinthians 15...Resurrection bodies
    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead.
    The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
    43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory;
    it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
    44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
    45 So it is written:
    "The first man Adam became a living being";
    the last Adam (JESUS), a life-giving spirit.
    46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
    47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
    48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven,
    so also are those who are of heaven.
    49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man,
    so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

    2 Corinthians 5 (NIV)...Our Heavenly Dwelling
    1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in (BODY/SOUL) is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house (PLACE) in heaven, not built by human hands.
    2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, (SPIRIT BODIES)
    3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
    4 For while we are in this tent (BODY/SOUL), we groan and are burdened,
    because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, (SPIRIT BODIES)
    so that what is mortal (BODY) may be swallowed up by life.(SPIRIT)
    5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit (indwelling HOLY SPIRIT of God) as a deposit, GUARANTEEING what is to come.
    6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the BODY(/SOUL) we are away from the Lord. (SPIRITUAL PRESENCE)
    7 We live by faith, not by sight.
    8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer
    to be away from the BODY and at home (HEAVEN) with the Lord.(SPIRITUAL PRESENCE)
    9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
    10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "judgment (bema = awards platform) seat of Christ",
    that each one may receive what is due him for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY,
    whether good or bad....

    14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
    15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him
    who died for them and was raised again....
    Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us (SUBSTiTUTiON),
    so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    1 Corinthians 15:52
    in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    Acts 1: 6-11...(The "Ascension")
    6 So when they (12 disciples minus Judas) met together (the FINAL time),
    they asked Him, (the Resurrected Jesus in His NEW "SPIRIT-BODY")
    "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the (God dwelling) kingdom to Israel?"
    7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
    8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
    9 After he said this, he was TAKEN UP before their very eyes, and a CLOUD hid him from their sight.
    10 They were looking intently up into the SKY as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white (angels) stood beside them.
    11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the SKY? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into HEAVEN, will COME BACK in the same way you have (just) seen him go into HEAVEN."

    Where? see: Matthew 28 end

    Zechariah 14:4
    On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem,
    and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west,
    forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south