DeaconDean
γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
- Jul 19, 2005
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And where does it say all that?
Here here.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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And where does it say all that?
Example, a great multitude were killed during the great tribulation.
These were Christians.
Rev 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Yes we are not appointed to GOD's wrath.
We are delivered from God's wrath only. In the world though we have persecutions, trials and troubles.
But in the beast's governmental antichrist system, it is not God's wrath but Satan's wrath killing believers.
Woe to the inhabitants of the earth. That includes all inhabitants, saved and unsaved, regarding their physical life on the earth. Recall Jesus tells us not to fear him who after killing the body can not kill the soul, that would include not fearing the devil or his people.
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
kjv
this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:11... "in like manner" not "return the same way." -the subject here is Jesus returning awesomely into heaven - and "in the LIKE manner" (...as awesome as it was to watch Him ascend up He will "in like manner" just as awesomely descend as he returns)
NOTE: If the rapture theory is a true Biblical teaching, then why was it not well known and popularized until the early 20th century?
Ok, but I was talking about God not killing millions of believers...God certainly does judge and also kill people.In at least three places, it is God's wrath.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but at least once during the opening of the seals, people will die.
"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." -Rev. 6:7-8 (KJV)
Who is opening the seals, Jesus or the devil?
At least once, once during the trumpet judgments, people will die.
"And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." -Rev. 8:10-11 (KJV)
Who sounds the trumpets, angels or Satan?
I give you the scripture again.
And, at the current population of the world, between the 4th seal and the trumpet judgments, at least half of the world's population will die.
And these events happen before Satan is turned loose, or before the beast, false prophet, and before the anti-Chris is revealed.
How many of those are Christian?
God Bless
Till all are one.
Ok, but I was talking about God not killing millions of believers...God certainly does judge and also kill people.
That is one argument against a post trib rapture idea.I do not disagree with anything you said.
I just disagree with the thought that Christians as well as the unsaved, will both suffer during that time.
God Bless
Till all are one.
That is one argument against a post trib rapture idea.
God's wrath is not poured out on believers in Christ.
Study Daniel 7, does not the scripture there have to agree with the NT eschatology also?How can you say that?
If we (Christians) are here during this time, as a plain reading of the seals and trumpet judgments show, about half of the world's population will die. And is according to scripture, not my word, but God's.
Are you going to look me straight in the eye and say none of them are "Christians"?
And again, I refer back to Acts 1:9-11 as opposed to 2 Thes. 1:7-8 and 2 Thes 2 and Rev. 19.
After chapter 4 of Revelation, the church is not mentioned again.
I still see no reason to believe the church will endure anything that is mentioned about the tribulation period.
Sorry, we can debate the "rapture" until the cows come home. Just like how generations before us.
It has been, and always will be, a debatable subject.
And in my 43 years of being a Christian, I've yet to see any evidence to change my mind.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Study Daniel 7, does not the scripture there have to agree with the NT eschatology also?
For a time and times and half a time, the saints are given into the hands of the antichrist beast. That is the 3.5 years also mentioned in Revelation of severe tribulations.
19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
v27 is still future
Sure, I am not trying to be unfriendly either.There is a remnant that comes out of the great Tribulation period.
Prime scripture is the martyred saints seen under the throne. (cf. Rev. 6:9)
Now first off, I do hold to "traditional" Dispensational theology when talking on the "rapture".
So, in 43 years, I have not changed my position once.
I do not believe any of the redeemed, those "in Christ", will have to endure the tribulation period, period.
I believe that after chapter 4 of Revelation, it is nothing but God's wrath pored out on an unsaved, unrepentant world.
Now, like I said, we can debate this subject as long as you want, but in the end, you know as well as I do, it's not going to accomplish anything. This subject has been debated for how long without any resolve?
I like you as a friend in Christ, I have supported you in many debates in Soteriology. And I wish to remain friends.
Since it comes down to the point that anybody like me, who holds to a pre-millennial "rapture" are looked down on and regarded as darn near to the point that we are considered as teaching heresy, I will bow out gracefully.
I wish you well, I wish you blessings.
I know when to say when, and this is darn near the point. So before things get out of hand, I'll take my pre-trib, pre-millennial, rapture theology and leave.
And besides that, I have a dear, very dear Uncle who passed away early Saturday morning and my brother and I have been asked to do the services. I have to prepare for that.
God Bless
Till all are one.
The Nephilim were the offspring of fallen angels who descended on Mount Hermon in the days of Jared. The took for them human females for wives and taught men how to do evil things. The women bore to them the giants, and they built all the enduring mighty humongous stone works all over the earth.
The Book of Enoch: The Book of Enoch: Chapter VI.
The Holy Spirit still gifts His people spiritually with gifts. They are for the building up of the body. That includes all the gifts, no cessationism. For example many say when the perfect comes the imperfect will pass away, the perfect being the bible. But Paul is speaking of Christ coming, when we will see Him face to face. Until that time, Christ sends to us the Holy Spirit to be with us and in us, which He said, when He goes away, which He did, He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth. Some people however resist the Holy Spirit, since this is not forced truth but truth that is taught and revealed.
He that believes in Me, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water...
According to scripture:
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you." -John 16:13-15 (KJV)
These three ideas go together. You quote John 16, but to whom is Jesus speaking when He promises that that "YOU" will be led into all truth? He is not speaking to any individual Christian. The word "you" in these verses means the Apostles. He was giving specific authority and gifts of understanding to the Apostles. Nowhere in Scripture is there the idea that the individual is greater, smarter, and more learned than the leadership of the congregation of believers (aka "church"). It is the Church which Jesus said that we are to listen to.
There are a lot of wolves in among the sheep, seeking to create their own disciples after themselves.
Just because someone says they are a believer and in a position of 'authority' does not mean they are born of God automatically because they claim to believe, you can not know their heart or their innermost thoughts. Judas was not a believer in Christ, and Judas was a devil and Judas demonstrates God is sovereign over who actually is saved.
No water baptism to be saved. When Christ said he that believes and is baptised shall be saved, He meant to be baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, for by one Spirit we are baptized into one body. This regeneration into Christ, believing and being baptized by the Spirit naturally goes together accomplished by the Holy Spirit as it is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God., that includes your faith being God's gift. John said he baptized with water, but Christ will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire (power). He that believes not shall be condemned.
God regenerates young children and infants before their death, so they do not die in hell.
Infant water baptism for children of believers is not a problem, the children are saved regardless, if they die. Paul says the children of a believing parent are holy.
I have taken heat, pressure, and strong words written against me for all these beliefs on this forum and elsewhere, including friends and family. Most certainly some have even told me I am unsaved. Ran into that at a former job because I have not been water baptised with total immersion as an adult, sang songs and worshipped God with musical instruments and believed in God healing supernaturally for today.
The only problem I have with this is taking non canonical books for truth.
If we take Enoch, as is, and believe what it says, Methuselah lived until the day God shut the doors of the ark.
According to the book of Enoch, the antediluvians were as tall as the ark was long. Some 450'.
The book of Enoch says:
"Whose stature was each three hundred cubits." -Enoch 7:2
How long was the ark Noah built?
"And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits." -Gen. 6:15 (KJV)
One cubit equals 1.5 feet. The Ark was 450 feet long.
How tall were the antediluvians? 300 cubits times 1.5 feet equals 450 feet tall.
The antediluvians were as tall as the ark was long.
If you take the book of Enoch as written, we also find out the two sorcerers in Pharaoh's court, Jannes and Jambres, were already known to Moses because he had had a run in with them while on the run when he fled.
I might read for information's sake, but I don't accept what it teaches.
While your at it, perhaps you should also read "The Apocalypse of Peter" and "Apocalypse of Paul". They both share some vivid images of what it would be like to be in hell.
From: The Apocalypse of Peter":
"Then shall men and women come unto the place prepared for them. By their tongues wherewith they have blasphemed the way of righteousness shall they be hanged up. There is spread under them unquenchable fire, that they escape it not.
Behold, another place: therein is a pit, great and full (of . . ) In it are they that have denied righteousness: and angels of punishment chastise them and there do they kindle upon them the fire of their torment.
And again behold [two: corrupt] women: they hang them up by their neck and by their hair; they shall cast them into the pit. These are they which plaited their hair, not for good (or, not to make them beautiful) but to turn them to fornication, that they might ensnare the souls of men unto perdition. And the men that lay with them in fornication shall be hung by their loins in that place of fire; and they shall say one to another: We knew not that we should come unto everlasting punishment."
Source
I was with you up until this point.
I have been to seminary. I am an ordained deacon and an elder. I have been licesensed to preach. But I was told here recently that the passage you are referring to has no bearing for Christians today. In John 16 where Jesus gave the promise of the coming of the "Comforter" that was Jesus passing His authority to the disciples, and the Holy Spirit would guide the disciples to all truth.
BULL CRAP!
Again, no argument from me.
Minor difference, but nothing to get into it about. Baptists and Reformers believe about the same thing, regeneration precedes everything, righteousness and justification are imputed and inseparable, and sanctification is a lifelong process.
Minor difference, but it may be in the way the sentence came out.
My mother came from a church that practiced "sprinkling". But, when she started attending a Baptist church, conviction led her to be baptized by immersion. But, I still don't see that being a problem.
God Bless
Till all are one.
I still have zero problem with tall giants being nephilim who have built the huge stone works all over the earth. But of course how tall and big they were is the question.
All those giant stones were cut from the bedrock and were to be moved into place, and many other unexplainable examples of huge stone works.
And perhaps the builders were forced to stop by the flood, or another destruction orchestrated by God. We read in Enoch God forced the first giants to kill each other, while the fallen angels watched.
Gigantic Horizontally Lying Stones Of Ancient City Of Baalbek | Ancient Pages
Did you add to my post?
Where did your bolded text come from, where you responded with Bull Crap?
It just reaqds as if I wrote that in my original post.
Here was mine
'The Holy Spirit still gifts His people spiritually with gifts. They are for the building up of the body. That includes all the gifts, no cessationism. For example many say when the perfect comes the imperfect will pass away, the perfect being the bible. But Paul is speaking of Christ coming, when we will see Him face to face. Until that time, Christ sends to us the Holy Spirit to be with us and in us, which He said, when He goes away, which He did, He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth. Some people however resist the Holy Spirit, since this is not forced truth but truth that is taught and revealed.
He that believes in Me, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water...'
'These three ideas go together. You quote John 16, but to whom is Jesus speaking when He promises that that "YOU" will be led into all truth? He is not speaking to any individual Christian. The word "you" in these verses means the Apostles. He was giving specific authority and gifts of understanding to the Apostles. Nowhere in Scripture is there the idea that the individual is greater, smarter, and more learned than the leadership of the congregation of believers (aka "church"). It is the Church which Jesus said that we are to listen to.'
So you do not believe the Holy Spirit guides individual christians into all truth? and only did this for the apostles?, Or are you bringing in someone else's words?
Being a reformed person, I would expect you to believe those drawn are those whom the Holy Spirit teaches and are those who then learn from the Holy Spirit all truth they need to know.
But I was told here recently that the passage you are referring to has no bearing for Christians today. In John 16 where Jesus gave the promise of the coming of the "Comforter" that was Jesus passing His authority to the disciples, and the Holy Spirit would guide the disciples to all truth.
Thanks for clarifying this. It would have been out of your character, but I wanted to know.Be that asi t may, it does not explain how it is we can find dinosaurs, rather fossils of dinosaurs but no skeletons of them.
That was not your post. That was what was told to me from another thread by a member of the Eastern Orthodox. I left the name out so I would not get a warning.
Unless you support the bolded section. That was not your post and I did not add to it.
Before you jump all over me, please read what I said first:
Now, where did I say the Holy Spirit would not guide us to all truth?
God Bless
Till all are one.
Thanks for clarifying this. It would have been out of your character, but I wanted to know.
No skeletons of dinosaurs, or do you mean no skeletons of giants?
Perhaps this, there were not so many of them, Enoch mentions 400 only or so thereabouts, of the first set of giants.
God may have utterly destroyed them so no evidence can be found.
As it says, God destroyed them to their roots, so I always read that as He wiped all physical trace of them out completely.
And we still have not discovered Noah's ark but it was real too.
Which is also one reason they built with stone. Stone endures while all other things rot away, and they knew that, and they wanted to leave their legacy, their mark on the earth. God blasted and destroyed much of all the ancient stone works they made, turning them into ruinous heaps of stone work.
The work they did was precise and very finely crafted. If you look at some videos on youtube and listen to people describe these things appear to have been blasted with explosives, they call it a cataclysmic destruction all over the earth, thousands of years ago, occured to all these stone works, or become melted - vitrified stone.
The Mystery of the Vitrified Forts
Personally I believe God sent His angels to destroy all these works of the Nephilim, or did it Himself.
Amos 2:9
“Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them, Whose height was like the height of the cedars, And he was as strong as the oaks; Yet I destroyed his fruit above And his roots beneath.