the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

[gort]

to assume that somebody can be resurrected into death is kind of ubsurd don't you think, seeing as how they were dead beforehand?

My question still stands. Read about the dead and the second ressurrection.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And tell me about how someone could have a second death.

well asi said in another thread on this same topic, how is it possible for things sucha s pain to exist when it says in revelation 21 that there won't be any more pain, tears, death etc.

Read chapter 20, about the whosoever was cast into the LOF.

I'm sorry, but I can't continue in refuting your prooftexting. You're taking verses out of context to proove your points. It is quite obvious. You are either doing it either on purpose to play games, or are doing it honestly because you don't understand something about the judgements and all.

I really don't know which. But I have to be honest with myself and you. I'm not interested in games, but are interested in honest discussion.



<><

 

[Soul Searcher]

good post man, i do have a commentto add.

Jesus said he would baptize by fire.... hmm just a thought for the ear to chew on

regards

disciple00

Thanks, I have pointed out the baptism by fire on other threads.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

The part that I bolded is where bias may start to come into effect from the compiler, Mr. Hanson.

----------------------------------------
Polycarp

His only surviving epistle contains this passage:

To Christ "all things are made subject, both that are in heaven and that are on earth; whom every living creature shall worship; who shall come to judge the quick and the dead; whose blood God shall require of them that believe not in him."

He also says in the same chapter:

"He who raised up Christ from the dead, will also raise us up if we do his will,"


implying that the resurrection depended, as he thought, on conduct in this life. It seems probable that he was one of those who held to the Pharisaic doctrine of a partial resurrection. And yet this is only the most probable conjecture. There is nothing decisive in his language.

When the proconsul Statius Quadratus wrote to Polycarp, threatening him with burning, the saint replied "Thou threatenest me with a fire that burns for an hour, and is presently extinct, but art ignorant, alas! of the fire of aionian condemnation, and the judgment to come, reserved for the wicked in the other world."

After Polycarp there was no literature, that has descended to us, for several years, except a few quotations in later writings, which, however, contain nothing bearing on our theme, from Papias, Quadratus, Agrippa, Castor, etc.

----------------------------------------

The significance of Polycarp in the history of the Church is out of all proportion to our knowledge of the facts of his career. The violent attack of the Smyrnaean mob is an eloquent tribute to his influence in Asia. This is the teacher of Asia, they shouted, this is the father of the Christians: this is the destroyer of our gods: this is the man who has taught so many no longer to sacrifice and no longer to pray to the gods.13 And after the execution they refused to deliver up his bones to the Christians for burial on the ground that the Christians would now forsake the Crucified and worship Polycarp.14 Polycarp was indeed, as Polycrates says,u one of the great luminaries iey&Xa crroiX&ct) of the time. It was in no small degree due to his stanch and unwavering leadership that the Church was saved from the peril of being overwhelmed by the rising tide of the pagan revival which swept over Asia during the first half of the 2nd century, and it was his unfaltering allegiance to the Apostolic faith that secured the defeat of the many forms of heresy which threatened to destroy the Church from within. Polycarp bad no creative genius. He was a transmitter, not a maker, but herein lies his greatness. Much occurred between the Apostolic age and the age when the faith of the Church was fixed in the earliest creed and protected by the determination of the canon of the New Testament. This intervening period was the most perilous epoch in the history of the ante-Nicene Church. The Apostolic tradition might have been perverted and corrupted. The purity of the Gospel might have been defiled. The Christian ideal might have been lost. That the danger was so largely averted is to no small extent the result of the faithful witness of Polycarp. As Irenaeus says (iii. 3, 4)~ Polycarp does not appear to have possessed qualifications for successfully conducting a controversial discussion with erroneous teachers . . . but he could not help feeling how unlike their speculations were to the doctrines which be had learned from the Apostles, and so he met with indignant reprobation, their attempt to supersede Christs gospel with fictions of their own devising. It is this that constitutes Polycarps service to the Church, and no greater service has been rendered by any of its leaders in any age.

1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica

http://33.1911encyclopedia.org/P/PO/POLYCARP.htm

 

[Pilgrim 33]

The ante-Nicene period

During the first three centuries of its existence the Christian Church had first to emerge from the Jewish environment that had cradled it and then come to terms with the predominantly Hellenistic (Greek) culture surrounding it. Its legal position at best precarious, it was exposed to outbursts of persecution at the very time when it was working out its distinctive system of beliefs, defining its position vis-à-vis Judaism on the one hand and Gnosticism (a heretical movement that upheld the dualistic view that matter is evil and the spirit good) on the other, and constructing its characteristic organization and ethic. It was a period of flux and experiment, but also one of consolidation and growing self-confidence, and these are all mirrored in its literature.


The Apostolic Fathers

According to conventional reckoning, the earliest examples of patristic literature are the writings of the so-called Apostolic Fathers; the name derives from their supposed contacts with the Apostles or the apostolic community. These writings include the church order called the Didach&#275; , or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (dealing with church practices and morals), the Letter of Barnabas , and the Shepherd of Hermas , all of which hovered at times on the fringe of the New Testament canon in that they were used as sacred scripture by some local churches; the First Letter of Clement , the seven letters that Ignatius of Antioch (d. c. 110) wrotewhen being escorted to Rome for his martyrdom, the related Letter to the Philippians by Polycarp of Smyrna (d. c. 156 or 168), and the narrative report of Polycarp's martyrdom; some fragmentary accounts of the origins of the Gospels by Papias (fl. late 1st or early 2nd century AD), bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, Asia Minor; and an ancient homily (sermon) known as the Second Letter of Clement . They all belong to the late 1st or early 2nd century and were all to a greater or lesser extent influenced (sometimes by way of reaction) by the profoundly Jewish atmosphere that pervaded Christian thinking and practice at this primitive stage. For this reason alone, modern scholars tend to regard them as a somewhat arbitrarily selected group. A more scientific assessment would place them in the context of a much wider contemporary Jewish-Christian literature that has largely disappeared but whose character can be judged from pseudepigraphal (or noncanonical) works such as the Ascension of Isaiah, the Odes of Solomon, and certain extracanonical texts modeled on the New Testament.

Even with this qualification the Apostolic Fathers, with their rich variety of provenance and genre (types), illustrate the difficult doctrinal and organizational problems with which the church grappled in those transitional generations. Important among these problems were the creation of a ministerial hierarchy and of an accepted structure of ecclesiastical authority. The Didach&#275;, which is Syrian in background and possibly the oldest of these documents, suggests aphase when Apostles and prophets were still active but when the routine ministry of bishops and deacons was already winning recognition. The First Letter of Clement, an official letter from the Roman to the Corinthian Church, reflects the more advanced state of a collegiate episcopate, with its shared authority among an assembly of bishops. This view of authority was supported by an emergent theory of apostolic succession in which bishops were regarded as jurisdictional heirs of the early Apostles. The First Letter of Clement is also instructive in showing that the Roman Church, even in the late 1st century, was asserting its right to intervene in the affairs of other churches. The letters of Ignatius, bishop of Antioch at the beginning of the 2nd century, depict the position of the monarchical bishop, flanked by subordinate presbyters (priests) and deacons (personal assistants to the bishop), which had been securely established in Asia Minor.

Almost more urgent was the question of the relation of Christianity to Judaism, and in particular of the Christian attitude toward the Old Testament. In the Didach&#275; there is little sign of embarrassment; Jewish ethical material is taken over with suitable adaptations, and the Jewish basis of the liturgical elements is palpable. But with Barnabas the tension becomes acute; violently anti-Jewish, the Alexandrian author substitutes allegorism (use of symbolism) for Jewish literalism and thus enables himself to wrest a Christian meaning from the Old Testament. The same tension is underlined by Ignatius' polemic against Judaizing tendencies in the church. At the same time all these writings—especially those of Ignatius, Polycarp, and Papias—testify to the growing awareness of a specifically Christian tradition embodied in the teaching transmitted from the Apostles.

Almost all the Apostolic Fathers throw light on primitive doctrine and practice. The Didach&#275;, forexample, presents the Eucharist as a sacrifice, and I Clement incorporates contemporary prayers. II Clement invites its readers to think of Christ as of God, and of the church as a preexistent reality. The Shepherd of Hermas seeks to modify the rigorist view that sin committed after baptism cannot be forgiven. But the real key to the theology of the Apostolic Fathers, which also explains its often curious imagery, is that it is Jewish-Christian through and through, expressing itself in categories derived from latter-day Judaism and apocalyptic literature (depicting the intervention of God in history in the last times), which were soon to become unfashionable and be discarded.

Encyclopedia Brittanica 2004

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Greek bishop of Smyrna who was the leading 2nd-century Christian figure inRoman Asia by virtue of his work during the initial appearance of the fundamental theological literature of Christianity. Historically, he formed a link between the apostolic and patristic ages.

By his major writing, The Letter to the Philippians, and by his widespread moral authority, Polycarp combated various heretical sects, including certain Gnostic groups that claimed religious salvation exclusively through their arcane spiritual knowledge. Polycarp's Letter to the Philippians contains a classic formulation in which he refutes the Gnostics' argument that God's incarnation in, and the death and Resurrection of, Christ were all imaginary phenomena of purely moral or mythological significance.

More important, however, is the way in which Polycarp referred to the apostle Paul in The Letter to the Philippians. Not only does he repeatedly quote from Paul's writings but he also stresses the personal importance of Paul as a primary authority of the Christian church. It must be remembered that at that time Paul had been adopted as a primary authority by the Gnostic heretics. Polycarp, in response, reclaimed Paul as a treasured figure of the orthodox church. It is apparently thus partly due to Polycarp that Paul, the disputed apostle, became a theologically respectable part of the Christian church's tradition. Furthermore, Polycarp's orthodox use of the Pauline texts marked a crucial advance in the Christian theology of biblical interpretation. According to certain scholars, Polycarp may even have composed or directly influenced some of the letters traditionally ascribed to St. Paul, the so-called Pastoral Letters (I and II Timothy, Titus). These letters possess a 2nd-century vocabulary and style that are characteristic of Polycarp.

Polycarp's Letter to the Philippians is doubly important for its early testimony to the existence of various other New Testament texts. It probably is the first to quote passages from the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, the Acts of the Apostles, and the first letters of St. Peter and St. John. Other immediate postapostolic writers employed a more oral tradition.

Toward the end of his life Polycarp visited Bishop Anicetus of Rome to discuss with him the date at which the Easter festival was to be celebrated, a controversy that threatened to provoke a schism between Rome and Asia Minor. The two men could not reach agreement on a common date on which to celebrate Easter, so they agreed that Rome and Asia Minor would follow different practices in this regard. On his return to Smyrna, Polycarp was arrested by the Roman proconsul and burned to death when he refused to renounce Christianity. This event has been eulogized in the Martyrdomof Polycarp, one of the earliest-known Christian documents of this nature.

Encyclopedia Brittanica 2004

 

[Pilgrim 33]

"There is a later Syriac Version, made in AD 488-518. It is known as the "Philoxenian," or "Syro-Philoxenian" Version, from the name of Philoxenus, Bishop of Hierapolis, in Syria, who employed Polycarp to make it."-EW Bullinger

 

[Pilgrim 33]

by John Daniel

The third technique of persecution was a direct physical attack. The first martyr of the Smyrna church period was Polycarp who in the year 166 AD was burned at the stake at the age of 108. At the age of 22, Polycarp became a disciple of the apostle John and was appointed to the position of bishop of Smyrna. Eighty-six years later those who called for Polycarp's death in 166 AD were a few Jews who had joined a predominantly Gentile secret society and had Judaized it. In Revelation 2:9 Christ gives the scriptural name of that secret society: "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." To understand what Christ means by "the synagogue of Satan," we must look at history.
Throughout the book of Acts the Gentile riots that were stirred up against the preaching of the gospel were organized by Jews. But did the persecution of the Smyrna church period originate from Jewish synagogues? There are two opinions: First is the opinion that they were Jews who rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah, hence are no longer considered Jews. There are two scriptures used as proof in this opinion: First is found in Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly." Second is found in John 8:44 where Christ speaking to the Jews said "Ye are of your father the devil." William Newall, former assistant superintendent of Moody Bible Institute, suggested the same idea with this statement: "Satan early entrenched himself against Christ in his gospel in Judaism." Certainly scripture is replete with examples of Jewish persecution of Christians in the early years of the church. Are Jews, however, the persecutors during the Smyrna church period? The answer say those who hold the second opinion is "no." They were not Jews but Judaized Gentiles. Walter Scott came closest to what I believe is an accurate assessment. In his book "Exposition of the Revelation of Jesus Christ," Scott reminds us of the pretender apostles in the Ephesian church period who were called liars. Another group of liars from an organization Christ calls "the synagogue of Satan" are pretending to be Jews in the Smyrna church period. Walter Scott leaves the reader with the impression that both groups of liars are either the same people or the next generation who are members of a satanic order that Christ called "the synagogue of Satan." I believe this is the proper interpretation. When Christ said "they are not Jews but liars from the synagogue of Satan" I take this literally to mean that they were Gentiles who had taken on Judaic character. We shall return to them later in this study.

excerpt from chapter 2: The Secret Society at the Church of Smyrna

 

[Pilgrim 33]

W. M. Ramsay
1904

Chapter 20: The Letter to the Church in Smyrna
​

The action of the Jews in the martyrdom of Polycarp must be regarded (as a succession of writers have remarked) as corroborating the evidence of this letter. In that case the eagerness of the Jews to expedite the execution of the Christian leader actually overpowered their objection to profane the Sabbath day, and they came into the gay assemblage in the Stadium, bringing ******s to make the fire in which Polycarp should be consumed. It must, however, be observed that they are not said to have been present at the sports in the Stadium. The games were over, as usual, at about the fifth hour, 11 AM. Thereafter the rather irregular trial of Polycarp was held; and about 2 PM the execution took place, and the most bitter opponents of the Christians had ample time to hear the news, assemble to hear the sentence, and to help in carrying it into effect. Undoubtedly, many who would abhor to appear as spectators of the games on a Sabbath would feel justified in putting to death an enemy of their faith on that day.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

"The opposition to the new religion [Christianity] came rather from the people than from the state. The magistrates were often men of culture and tolerance; but the mass of the pagan population resented the aloofness, superiority, and certainity of the Christians, and called upon the authorities to punish these 'atheists' for insulting the gods...From the time of Nero Roman law seems to have branded the profession of Christianity as a capital offense; but under most of the emperors this ordinance was enforced with deliberate negligence. If accused, a Christian could usually free himself by offering incense to a statue of the emperor; thereafter he was apparently allowed to resume the quiet practice of his faith. Christians who refused this obeisance might be imprisoned, or flogged, or exiled, or condemned to the mines, or, rarely, put to death.

"At Smyrna the populace demanded of the 'Asiarch' Philip that he enforce the law; he complied by having eleven Christians executed in the amphitheater (155). The bloodthirst of the crowd was aroused rather than assuaged; it clamored for the death of Bishop Polycarp, a saintly patriarch of 86 years, who was said in his youth to have known St. John."

(Story of Civilization: Caesar and Christ, Will Durant)

 

[Pilgrim 33]

To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: "...be thou faithful unto death..."
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:40:07 -0500



----------------------------------------------
Current Study Subject:
Revelation 2:8-11
Letter to the Church of Smyrna
-----------------------------------------------
From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

"...be thou faithful unto death..."

(Rev 2:10 KJV) "Fear none of those things which thou shalt
suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that
ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou
faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

The Christians in Smyrna did indeed go through severe
persecution. They were getting it from all sides -- hostile Jews,
pagan Gentiles, and suspicious Romans. In many cases,
prison was just a prelude to execution. The _IVP Bible
Background Commentary_ further explains what was going on:

"People were betrayed to provincial officials by "informers,"
and by the early second century it is attested that Christians in
Asia Minor were generally charged only if accused by such
informers. By the early second century, Jews in Smyrna were
reportedly fulfilling this function against Christians (such as
Polycarp). But simply claiming publicly that Christians were no
longer welcome as part of the synagogue community was a
form of betrayal; Christians who were not seen as Jewish had
no protection against civil requirements for participation in the
emperor cult."

(The martyrdom of Polycarp is interesting reading. For a
condensed version of the story, visit:
http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/glimpses/eleven.html)

How comforting this letter must have been to them. Jesus told
them not to be afraid and to be faithful even unto death. He
was their example in that He had died and come back to life
and because of this He could promise them a crown of life for
their faithfulness. But verse 11 tells us that this letter is to all
Christians everywhere that may go through persecution one
day:

(Rev 2:11 KJV) "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the
Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be
hurt of the second death." There's a reason this letter appears in the last book of the
Bible.

 

[gort]

I've always like that letter to Smyrna. They were poor, but very rich. Very very rich.

good stuff, that letter.



<><

 

[Pilgrim 33]

​

​

​

​

​

​

by: Edward Beecher, D.D.
1878
excerpt



But there is another statement of the case by Messrs. Constable, of Ireland, and Hudson of this country, in their elaborate works designed to prove the final annihilation of the wicked. According to Mr. Constable, all the apostolic fathers believed in this doctrine. His list of authorities is quite impressive. Beginning with Barnabus, and going to the year 242, he claims Clemens Romanus, Hermas, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria, so that Arnobius does not stand alone as Prof. Shedd represents, but has very illustrious company. He leaves only Athenagoras, Tatian, and Tertullian, as advocates of eternal torment, and finally he represents Origen, so late as the year 253, as first introducing the doctrine of universal restoration. Mr. Hudson is not less exacting in his claims. He says: “It now remains to show that the early Christians, heralds as they were of the word of life, taught nothing else than the death of the wicked. The documents which here offer themselves are the writings of the so-called apostolic fathers, and other early records” (“Doctrine of a Future Life,” p. 289).

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Creed of Irenaeus.
​

 

[Pilgrim 33]

​

​

ORIGEN AND HIS AGE​

by: Edward Beecher, D.D.
1878
excerpt

We have taken the age of Origen (A.D. 185-253) as a point of vision from which to survey the course of opinion as to the doctrine of retribution. It was the age of the first development of scientific theology, and of the extensive establishment of theological schools. In this age began the extended movement in behalf of the doctrine of universal restoration, which continued until the sixth century in two forms, that of the Alexandrian and that of the Antiochian school. Origen is on the dividing line between this movement and that of the school of Asia Minor, which can be traced back to the apostle John, and in which Melito of Sardis, and Irenaeus, the disciple of Polycarp, were the most celebrated teachers. Irenaeus taught the annihilation of the wicked, agreeing in this with Justin Martyr. But this movement was interrupted by Origen and his successors, and for centuries the doctrine of universal restoration took its place, so far as the doctrine of eternal punishment was not held. The only exception to this statement is found in Arnobius, who wrote a little after Origen, and taught the doctrine of annihilation. We propose to give an account of the leading theological schools that were developed in this age, and of the influence exerted by them on the great question of future retribution.

 

[gort]

Ok. I'll call your cut-n-pastes from authors other than Polycarp, and raise you one letter from Polycarp himself.....

Chapter XI.-No Threats Have Any Effect on Polycarp.

The proconsul then said to him, "I have wild beasts at hand ; to these will I cast thee, except thou repent." But he answered, "Call them then, for we are not accustomed to repent of what is good in order to adopt that which is evil;30 and it is well for me to be changed from what is evil to what is righteous."31 But again the proconsul said to him, "I will cause thee to be consumed by fire, seeing thou despisest the wild beasts, if thou wilt not repent." But Polycarp said, "Thou threatenest me with fire which burneth for an hour, and after a little is extinguished, but art ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and of eternal punishment, reserved for the ungodly. But why tarriest thou? Bring forth what thou wilt."

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-13.htm#P911_166347

<><

 

[Pilgrim 33]

But a more particular view of these schools and their eminent teachers and scholars is necessary to a clear understanding of the state of things at large in the churches, and the course of events. We shall first look a little more closely at the school of Asia Minor founded by the apostle John, and of which Polycarp and Irenaeus are representatives. It is of great moment to verify the statements which we have often made concerning Irenaeus, of his belief of the annihilation of the wicked, and also to inquire to what extent these views were adopted by others. After this it will be in order to consider the different grounds on which the doctrine of universal restitution was held and defended in the different schools.

by: Edward Beecher, D.D.
1878
excerpt

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Ok. I'll call your cut-n-pastes from authors other than Polycarp, and raise you one letter from Polycarp himself.....

Chapter XI.-No Threats Have Any Effect on Polycarp.

The proconsul then said to him, "I have wild beasts at hand ; to these will I cast thee, except thou repent." But he answered, "Call them then, for we are not accustomed to repent of what is good in order to adopt that which is evil;30 and it is well for me to be changed from what is evil to what is righteous."31 But again the proconsul said to him, "I will cause thee to be consumed by fire, seeing thou despisest the wild beasts, if thou wilt not repent." But Polycarp said, "Thou threatenest me with fire which burneth for an hour, and after a little is extinguished, but art ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and of eternal punishment, reserved for the ungodly. But why tarriest thou? Bring forth what thou wilt."

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-13.htm#P911_166347

<><

hehehe, by now we've got that posted a few times here.

 

[gort]

And from Barnabas:

Chapter XX.-The Way of Darkness.

But the way of darkness270 is crooked, and full of cursing; for it is the way of eternal271 death with punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul, viz., idolatry, over-confidence, the arrogance of power, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, adultery, murder, rapine, haughtiness, transgression,272 deceit, malice, self-sufficiency, poisoning, magic, avarice,273 want of the fear of God. [In this way, too, ] are those who persecute the good, those who hate truth, those who love falsehood, those who know not the reward of righteousness, those who cleave not to that which is good, those who attend not with just judgment to the widow and orphan, those who watch not to the fear of God, [but incline] to wickedness, from whom meekness and patience are far off; persons who love vanity, follow after a reward, pity not the needy, labour not in aid of him who is overcome with toil; who are prone to evil-speaking, who know not Him that made them, who are murderers of children, destroyers of the workmanship of God; who turn away him that is in want, who oppress the afflicted, who are advocates of the rich, who are unjust judges of the poor, and who are in every respect transgressors.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-41.htm#P3460_590395

 

[Pilgrim 33]

there appears to be a considerable amount of early belief in annihilation.

 

[gort]

And from Barnabas:

Chapter XX.-The Way of Darkness.

But the way of darkness270 is crooked, and full of cursing; for it is the way of eternal271 death with punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul, viz., idolatry, over-confidence, the arrogance of power, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, adultery, murder, rapine, haughtiness, transgression,272 deceit, malice, self-sufficiency, poisoning, magic, avarice,273 want of the fear of God.

Do you see anhilationism in just what I posted here?

<><