the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Then why do you keep telling everybody about your education every chance you get[/SIZE]?

Because people like you evidently think everybody is an idiot and will swallow any nonsense you care to spew out. It doesn't matter how absurd, if your preacher/teacher said it then it must be true. But there are people who have studied and, unlike the folks spreading their false teachings here, know how to dig and find the truth.

[SIZE=-1]This is not your house - it is a community forum. Do you own it? No, I didn't think so.

The derogatory description is out of line - you should apologise.

Again with the sheep thing

Again I stress, this AINT YOUR HOUSE [/SIZE]

This is Christian Forums! It is not JW, LDS, WWCG, UCPI, UU, Preterist, etc., or whatever you belong to, forums! It is my spiritual house, MY HOUSE as much as the church I attend is my house. I did not come to your forum, your congregation, your house, and trash your faith and beliefs. You came to my house with false teachings. I essentially share the beliefs of Christian forums. I believe, and can show with a preponderance of Biblical and historical evidence, these beliefs to be scripturally correct. But, the burden of proof is not on me to prove anything, to anyone. Nobody put a gun to anybody’s head and made them come here, if you don’t like the Theology and beliefs, you can log out.
[bible]matthew 7:15[/bible]
[bible]john 10:10[/bible]
OTOH when you come here attacking my faith, my church, and my scriptures, with false, unbiblical, teachings, attempting to steal sheep and scatter the flock, as a senior member of the flock, I have the God given mission to, assist, protect, and support the flock. I could care less about trying to convince you, or anyone else, who holds false beliefs, they are wrong.

You came here accusing us of being wrong, the burden of proof is entirely on you, produce your evidence. I really don’t care what you think, believe, suppose, or have been taught, about the historical faith. The only thing that matters is can you produce credible, verifiable, evidence? And the answer has been, over and over and over again, a resounding definitive no!

Virtually every unorthodox theology believer who ever comes here bases their arguments, not on a systematic, consistent, exegesis of scripture and credible sources, but a handful of out-of-context proof texts, a few cut/pastes from their pet “in-house scholars,” and if they do quote traditional, evangelical, scholars, invariably they misquote or quote them out-of-context.

[SIZE=-1]Your job? Who appointed you?[/SIZE]

Easy!
[bible]matthew 28:19-20[/bible]

[SIZE=-1]And Dottie isn't attacking the Bible, like you, she loves the Bible. Dottie is seeking to interpret it in a way that remains faithful to the witness of Jesus Christ[/SIZE].

Anybody, including you, who claims the Bible has so much as one verse that is copied from pagan beliefs, that is ATTACKING the Bible. And I am still waiting for proof. Dottie appears to love her version of the Bible, that is the version with all the passages that refute her false doctrines conveniently ripped out.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I won't bother posting the link to my previous posts because you don't read anything anyway.

Thank you

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Thank you[/SIZE]

[size=+1]ויפתח יהוה את-פי האתון[/size]

 

[john14_20]

Because people like you evidently think everybody is an idiot and will swallow any nonsense you care to spew out.

And you accuse ME of misquoting YOU

It doesn't matter how absurd, if your preacher/teacher said it then it must be true.

That is the typical attitude of the average Christian. And that is why the doctrine of eternal punishment has lasted so long. The preachers spew it forth and the congregation eats it up. The absurdity of it appears lost on them.

 

[john14_20]

But there are people who have studied and, unlike the folks spreading their false teachings here, know how to dig and find the truth.

That is exactly why I believe that eventually all will be saved - at least in all probability. I was a typical believer in eternal punishment when I just believed everything the preacher spewed out. The theology I now have is a DIRECT RESULT of my studies, not because I have not studied.

Rather than accuse me of assuming everybody is an idiot that can be led astray, look at your own position that APPEARS to be saying that all universalists are uneducated idiots. If that is not what your position is, please let me know, and explain how to interpret your words differently.

This is Christian Forums!

Strangely enough, I know that. I am a Christian too, you know.

It is my spiritual house,

As it is my house, and the house of every Christian who wants to post here.

I did not come to your forum, your congregation, your house, and trash your faith and beliefs.

This is my forum as much as it is yours, and I am not trashing your beliefs. You have your opinion and I have mine. I am merely stating the case for what I believe. YOU came along and trashed MY beliefs.

I essentially share the beliefs of Christian forums.

As do I actually. In fact, with few exceptions, I am very orthodox. And nothing I believe, not one single thing, is new or has been invented by me. I rely on the great thinkers that have gone before me, early church brothers such as Origen and Athanasius, and modern eminently qualified and highly respected scholars such as Karl Barth, Thomas Torrance and Jurgen Moltmann.

Nobody put a gun to anybody’s head and made them come here, if you don’t like the Theology and beliefs, you can log out.

I don't have to log out. This is a forum open to Christians to post thier beliefs and discuss them. Universalism is sadly considered to be unorthodox, so we are having this discussion in the basement - the very place we are allowed to have it without being told to log out for being unorthodox.

NEWSFLASH: This is the unorthodox theology forum. We are allowed to be unorthodox in here.

You came here accusing us of being wrong, the burden of proof is entirely on you, produce your evidence. I really don’t care what you think, believe, suppose, or have been taught, about the historical faith. The only thing that matters is can you produce credible, verifiable, evidence? And the answer has been, over and over and over again, a resounding definitive no!

According to you, you who have already made up your mind on the topic. So no matter how much evidence is shown to you, it will never be enough.

Matthew 7:15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

That is exactly the Scripture that comes to mind when I think of the hell-fire preachers

Dottie appears to love her version of the Bible, that is the version with all the passages that refute her false doctrines conveniently ripped out.

Dottie, like me, does not rip anything out of her Bible. She seeks to interpret verses that seem to speak against universalism, not ignore them. You do the same, as does every scholar. You sek to interpret the verses that seem to speak against eternal hell.

 

[Soul Searcher]

The thing that always gets me about eternal punishment/eternal torture is that the fruit of the spirit is supposed to be love for your fellow man. Jesus himself spent a lot of time talking about how we should care for others, forgive, show mercy, not judge and so on.

Yet many of the christians do not bat an eye at the doctorine of eternal torment I wonder how can anyone who honestly cares about thier fellow man not be torn apart inside by such a thought? Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Many christians come up with ways to get around the injustice of this by saying the people in hell choose to go there, that they want to go there, that the ones in heaven will be unaware of those suffering in hell (as if that makes it ok )

They say that non believers are rebelling against God, that they hate God and they deserve what they get. They say we all deserve to go to hell for eternity but by grace of God we are saved. I find it rather odd that every single person I have ever heard say anyone deserves to go to hell believes that they themselves will not go there. It's kinda like look out for #1 and to hell with everyone else.

I ask you does this type of attitude display any love for your fellow man?

As for the parable it is suggested by Thomas B Thayer in the book I linked to before that the story was known among the Jews before Jesus spoke it. It is also suggested that he used it as a means to explain judgement to the Jews using the rich man as a symbol of the Jews and Lazerus as a symbol of the Gentiles.

 

[Dottie]

That is the typical attitude of the average Christian. And that is why the doctrine of eternal punishment has lasted so long. The preachers spew it forth and the congregation eats it up. The absurdity of it appears lost on them.

And may I add, that the doctrine of eternal punishment has proven to be quite a wonderful tool in the hands of today's average preacher. It has proven itself to be quite useful in the art of scaring little children hardly out of diapers, to the "altar" or to the "mourner's bench", to confess sins that they don't really even know they have, and to "accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour"; "invite Jesus into their hearts", etc. Instead of parents raising their children in the nuture and admonition of the Lord, thus gently guiding them towards immortality, they quite literally "scare the hell out of them." I've said it before and I'll say it again: "If the only reason wants to go to "heaven" is to escape "hell", they don't want to go to "heaven" for the right reasons."

Blessings
~ Dottie ~

 

[Soul Searcher]

[size=+1]ויפתח יהוה את-פי האתון[/size]

Very funny

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]For those who are interested here is a link to a very interesting article (edit:book) about the origins of the doctorine of eternal punishment.[/SIZE]

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

You trash the Bible because you have found a book you think supposedly “proves” the BIBLICAL doctrine of hell and eternal punishment was allegedly copied from Greek and other pagan mythologies? The only proof offered, in the book, is the assumed similarity of some words, phrases, and concepts, in various ancient pagan myths and legends, and Biblical accounts.

Similarity does NOT prove derivation! When the first European explorers returned from Australia and New Zealand they were ridiculed and scorned when they told of an animal that had webbed feet and swam in the water like a duck, had a bill like a duck, laid eggs like a duck, but it was not even a fowl, it was a furred marsupial. The learned scientists loudly proclaimed that was impossible, even stuffed animals were scoffed at as manufactured fakes. Only when explorers brought back a live Platypus was all the so-called science proven wrong. All those similarities did not make the Platypus a copy of a duck! Similarity does NOT prove derivation!

Your 150+ year old book supposedly “proves,” hell and eternal punishment, are allegedly from pagan sources. But hey, let’s not stop there, let’s trash the entire Bible, because there are many books, no less credible than that one, that use the same methods your guy used, quotes from various pagan writings that have similar language, etc.

For example, the Gilgamesh Epic, partial summary and quotes, below, “proves” that the story of Noah and the ark are copied from this pagan legend. Note all those similarities! I have highlighted them and cited the parallel passages in the Bible. The story of Noah and the ark must be copied from this story!

Let’s keep going, “The Paganism in Our Christianity,” by Arthur Weigall, supposedly “proves” that ALL of Christianity was copied from pagan myths and legends, from the virgin birth, in a manger, with shepherds attending, fleeing to Egypt, healings, miracles, baptism, twelve disciples, scourging, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension into heaven, and much, much, more. And it obviously true, Weigall quotes all kinds of pagan stories, with similar language, etc. and, of course, if it is similar then it must be copied from, right?

There is more, “The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors,” Kersey Graves, available online. Like the previous book, this one supposedly “proves” that many things about Jesus, His life, and ministry was copied from pagan legends, etc. Graves also quotes many pagan stories, with similar language, etc., and because there are similarities, the gospels must have been copied from paganism. And if you believe all that, I have some nice Koolaid for you.

If you want to trash the Bible and Christianity, don’t stop halfway there are many more such books. For example, “Come out Her My People, or “The Final Reformation,” J.C. Koster, and “The Two Babylons,” Alexander Hislop, both available online. These two books quote all kinds of pagan stories too and supposedly “prove” that many aspects of Judaism and Christianity were copied from pagan sources.

And, if all these books are not enough I have a bunch more. It just depends where you want to stop, you can find books that trash only a little bit of the Bible and Christianity or books that trash the entire Bible and the entire Jewish and Christian faiths.

And every one of these books is just as credible as the one you linked to. They all quote ancient stories, legends, etc. and show many similarities between ancient pagan beliefs, and Judaism, Christianity, and the Bible. And the fact that these, and many other, similar books are readily available online, and you did not even refer to them proves that you are not interested in the truth. Your only interest is proving your assumptions and presuppositions about hell and the doctrine of eternal punishment. You went looking for and found something, anything, that specifically supports those views, and posted it here.

If you had been systematically looking for as much relevant information as possible relating to the inerrancy of, and possible pagan influences on, the Bible, so that you could reach an informed conclusion, there is no way you could not have seen many of these sources. But surprise, surprise, the ONLY thing you saw was one book that supposedly proves the doctrine of hell and eternal punishment are of pagan origin, and NOTHING else. Cognitive dissonance!

The Gilgamesh Epic.

There, the counsel of the gods held a secret meeting; they all resolved to destroy the world in a great flood. [Gen 6:7] All the gods were under oath not to reveal this secret to any living thing, but Ea (one of the gods that created humanity) came to Utnapishtim's house and told the secret to the walls of Utnapishtim's house, thus not technically violating his oath to the rest of the gods. He advised the walls of Utnapishtim's house to build a great boat, its length as great as its breadth, to cover the boat, and to bring all living things into the boat.[Gen 6:15-22] Utnapishtim gets straight to work and finishes the great boat by the new year. Utnapishtim then loads the boat with gold, silver, and all the living things of the earth, and launches the boat. Ea orders him into the boat and commands him to close the door behind him. [Gen 7:13-16] The black clouds arrive, with the thunder god Adad rumbling within them; the earth splits like an earthenware pot, and all the light turns to darkness. The Flood is so great that even the gods are frightened:

The gods shook like beaten dogs, hiding in the far corners of heaven,
Ishtar screamed and wailed:
"The days of old have turned to stone:
We have decided evil things in our Assembly!
Why did we decide those evil things in our Assembly?
Why did we decide to destroy our people?
We have only just now created our beloved humans;
We now destroy them in the sea!"
All the gods wept and wailed along with her,
All the gods sat trembling, and wept.​

The Flood lasts for seven days and seven nights, and finally light returns to the earth. Utnapishtim opens a window and the entire earth has been turned into a flat ocean; all humans have been turned to stone. Utnapishtim then falls to his knees and weeps.
Utnapishtim's boat comes to rest on the top of Mount Nimush; [Gen 8:4] the boat lodges firmly on the mountain peak just below the surface of the ocean and remains there for seven days. On the seventh day:

I [Utnapishtim] released a dove from the boat,
It flew off, but circled around and returned,
For it could find no perch.
I then released a swallow from the boat,
It flew off, but circled around and returned,
For it could find no perch.
I then released a raven from the boat,
It flew off, and the waters had receded:
It eats, it scratches the ground, but it does not circle around and return.
I then sent out all the living things in every direction and sacrificed a sheep on that very spot. [Gen 8:7-12, 8:19-20]​

The gods smell the odor of the sacrifice [Gen 8:21] and begin to gather around Utnapishtim. Enlil, who had originally proposed to destroy all humans, then arrives, furious that one of the humans had survived, since they had agreed to wipe out all humans. He accuses Ea of treachery, but Ea convinces Enlil to be merciful. Enlil then seizes Utnapishtim and his wife and blesses them: [Gen 9:1]

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/GILG.HTM
​

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]And may I add, that the doctrine of eternal punishment has proven to be quite a wonderful tool in the hands of today's average preacher. It has proven itself to be quite useful in the art of scaring little children hardly out of diapers, to the "altar" or to the "mourner's bench", to confess sins that they don't really even know they have, and to "accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour"; "invite Jesus into their hearts", etc. Instead of parents raising their children in the nuture and admonition of the Lord, thus gently guiding them towards immortality, they quite literally "scare the hell out of them." I've said it before and I'll say it again: "If the only reason wants to go to "heaven" is to escape "hell", they don't want to go to "heaven" for the right reasons."

Blessings

~ Dottie ~[/SIZE]

Totally uninformed rant without one shred of evidence to back it up. Evangelicals have a witnessing tool called the "Roman Road to Salvation." It is a series of verses, mostly in Romans, hence the name, used to quickly and succinctly explain the need for salvation. It begins with John 3:16, then Rom 3:23, John 10:10, Rom 6:23a, Rom 5:8, Rom 6:23b, Rom 10:9-10, Eph 2:8-9, 2 Cor 6:2. Not one single verse about hell. In my more than 3 decades of preaching I have only preached one sermon on hell, "Lessons from Hell University." And I can't remember when I ever heard any other sermon which mentioned hell.

Your post is just more anti-anti Garbanzo beans.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]As for the parable it is suggested by Thomas B Thayer in the book I linked to before that the story was known among the Jews before Jesus spoke it. It is also suggested that he used it as a means to explain judgement to the Jews using the rich man as a symbol of the Jews and Lazerus as a symbol of the Gentiles.[/SIZE]

Don't give me no Garbanzo beans about what your pet 19th century writer "suggested" or supposed! Do you have any EVIDENCE? You claim to be presenting evidence and all you do is refer to a 150+ year old book, which also does not present any evidence. I posted quotes from, and links to, the Eschatology article in the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Babylonian Talmud. There is no mention of the Lazarus/rich man story or any thing similar to it. It is NOT a Jewish fable, and I haven't seen one shred of evidence showing any connection to Greek mythology. ZERO! ZILCH! NONE! NADA!

"It is also suggested that he used it as a means to explain judgement to the Jews using the rich man as a symbol of the Jews and Lazerus as a symbol of the Gentiles." Why does this statement not make any sense whatsoever? If this story was known by the Jews before Jesus told it, why would they give a character, who supposedly represented a gentile, which they considered to the same as a beast, a Hebrew name that means "God is Helper?" Jesus would, but no other ancient Hebrew would ever associate a gentile with god.

There is NOT one Universalist posting in this, or any other Universalist, thread who has posted one shred of credible, verifiable, evidence that would be accepted in any court in the world.

 

[Soul Searcher]

You trash the Bible because you have found a book you think supposedly “proves” the BIBLICAL doctrine of hell and eternal punishment was allegedly copied from Greek and other pagan mythologies? The only proof offered, in the book, is the assumed similarity of some words, phrases, and concepts, in various ancient pagan myths and legends, and Biblical accounts.

As usual you are msitaken. I did not say or even hint that the book proves anything at all. I simply said it was very interesting and offered it to any who were interested.

I wonder did you actually read the book or did you maybe just skim through it until you could find something to disagree with. In my opinion no one, absolutely no one knows and understands the whole truth. This includes you, me and the author of the book.

For future reference if you want me to read your posts perhaps you should try not starting them with insults and accusations. Keep in mind an insult in Hebrew is still an insult.

 

[Dottie]

Totally uninformed rant without one shred of evidence to back it up. Evangelicals have a witnessing tool called the "Roman Road to Salvation." It is a series of verses, mostly in Romans, hence the name, used to quickly and succinctly explain the need for salvation. It begins with John 3:16, then Rom 3:23, John 10:10, Rom 6:23a, Rom 5:8, Rom 6:23b, Rom 10:9-10, Eph 2:8-9, 2 Cor 6:2. Not one single verse about hell. In my more than 3 decades of preaching I have only preached one sermon on hell, "Lessons from Hell University." And I can't remember when I ever heard any other sermon which mentioned hell.

Your post is just more anti-anti Garbanzo beans.

Don't tell me that I don't have any evidence to back up the comment. I am the evidence! As a child, growing up under the likes of your so called evangelical endeavors, I sat through more fire and brimstone sermons than I care to remember. And all that did for me was to make me too afraid of God to love Him, or to believe that He loved me.

This comment is all that I have time for right now, Der Alter, but watch for more from me. I aint done with you yet.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Don't give me no Garbanzo beans about what your pet 19th century writer "suggested" or supposed! Do you have any EVIDENCE? You claim to be presenting evidence and all you do is refer to a 150+ year old book, which also does not present any evidence. I posted quotes from, and links to, the Eschatology article in the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Babylonian Talmud. There is no mention of the Lazarus/rich man story or any thing similar to it. It is NOT a Jewish fable, and I haven't seen one shred of evidence showing any connection to Greek mythology. ZERO! ZILCH! NONE! NADA!

Perhaps you should actually read some Greek mythology. While you're at it take a look at some of the Roman and Norse mythology as well. You might just be surprised what you learn.

"It is also suggested that he used it as a means to explain judgement to the Jews using the rich man as a symbol of the Jews and Lazerus as a symbol of the Gentiles." Why does this statement not make any sense whatsoever? If this story was known by the Jews before Jesus told it, why would they give a character, who supposedly represented a gentile, which they considered to the same as a beast, a Hebrew name that means "God is Helper?" Jesus would, but no other ancient Hebrew would ever associate a gentile with god.

I do not know in this case, assuming the story was around before Jesus spoke it, if it was the same or only similar. Jesus does go into detail about what the rich man is wearing which seems to be important to indentify the rich man. Also we have the parable of the wedding dinner which seems to relate a similar message.

There is NOT one Universalist posting in this, or any other Universalist, thread who has posted one shred of credible, verifiable, evidence that would be accepted in any court in the world.

Answer me this then, If there is eternal punishment why did Moses not mention it in the law?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Don't tell me that I don't have any evidence to back up the comment. I am the evidence! As a child, growing up under the likes of your so called evangelical endeavors, I sat through more fire and brimstone sermons than I care to remember. And all that did for me was to make me too afraid of God to love Him, or to believe that He loved me.

So true.

When I was a child I read the bible quite a bit. My grandparents encouraged me to do this. I was taught about Jesus and his love for us, for me. I thought he was so wonderful. The hell fire and brimstone was not taught to children so I really knew very little about this teaching until I was older. When I began to understand what this doctorine was really saying it came as such a shock to me.

It's like wait a minute here, Jesus loves us but he is going to torture my best friend in hell forever. How could he do such a thing??? He wants me to turn the other cheek but he is going to throw my friends into hell fire and leave them there for all eternity?? My friend is somehow of lesser value as a person because he dosen't believe the way I do?

Needless to say this made absolutely no sense to me. It didn't matter if one person told me or a million people told me in my mind it couldn't possibly be true. It drove me away from church, it drove me away from the bible, it drove me away from anyone who even wanted to talk about it.

I still don't know all the answers but I am sure the doctorine of eternal torment in hell is completely wrong.

 

[Dottie]

Needless to say this made absolutely no sense to me. It didn't matter if one person told me or a million people told me in my mind it couldn't possibly be true. It drove me away from church, it drove me away from the bible, it drove me away from anyone who even wanted to talk about it.

Thanks for sharing that, Soul Searcher. Its amazing how similar our experience has been. Especially the "leaving the church" part and not "wanting to talk about it".

Contrary to what Der Alter seems to think, I've live a good many years now, (probably more than he has) and I am battle scarred from head to toe, for I have fought many a spiritural battle (with myself) during my life time. But at the end of all those battles, and all is said and done, I find those ever enduring words to comfort me. GOD IS LOVE!

Many blessings, and "keep on keeping on".
~ Dottie ~

 

[Soul Searcher]

Thanks for sharing that, Soul Searcher. Its amazing how similar our experience has been. Especially the "leaving the church" part and not "wanting to talk about it".

I would think there are many of us out there, many just don't speak up. I think many have learned that there is always a bible thumper willing to beat you over the head with it until you see things thier way

Contrary to what Der Alter seems to think, I've live a good many years now, (probably more than he has) and I am battle scarred from head to toe, for I have fought many a spiritural battle (with myself) during my life time. But at the end of all those battles, and all is said and done, I find those ever enduring words to comfort me. GOD IS LOVE!

Yes, I know what you mean especially that last part.

Many blessings, and "keep on keeping on".
~ Dottie ~

Thank you and may God bless you as well

 

[gort]

I would think there are many of us out there, many just don't speak up. I think many have learned that there is always a bible thumper willing to beat you over the head with it until you see things thier way

Are you completely sure it is the "bible thumpers" way?

Or is it God's way?

Or is it "your way" instead of God's way?

You'll notice around most forums here at CF, everybody has their interpretation of "their way".

Are they all valid?

Or, in the end, when one stands before God, who's way will it be?

fwiw

<><

 

[Soul Searcher]

Are you completely sure it is the "bible thumpers" way?

It is not the way of all bible thumpers but it is the way of some.

Or is it God's way?

I don't think so I think God does it in a more gradual and suttle way speaking directly to your heart so to speak.

Or is it "your way" instead of God's way?

It is most definitely not my way. I try to respect and understand the beliefs and opinions of others, that is until they try to force them on me.

You'll notice around most forums here at CF, everybody has their interpretation of "their way".

This is true, no one has all the answers and many are searching, some just seem to be looking in the wrong place. I think the truth is inside us all.

Are they all valid?

Of course not, Are any of them valid?

Or, in the end, when one stands before God, who's way will it be?

I think you already know the answer to that question

 

[gort]

It is not the way of all bible thumpers but it is the way of some.

So how do we distinguish "whos" way it is?
Do we have a point of reference from which to turn to?

It is most definitely not my way. I try to respect and understand the beliefs and opinions of others, that is until they try to force them on me.

Are you definately sure it is not "Your way"?

Are you sure it's about "forcing them on you?"

This is true, no one has all the answers and many are searching, some just seem to be looking in the wrong place. I think the truth is inside us all.

How can the truth be inside us all, if everyone has their opinion?

Of course not, Are any of them valid?

Of course, one is valid.

I think you already know the answer to that question

Now you've met someone who knows all the answers to that question.


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