The Fall (questions)

[Not David]

I have been thinking ( I do that a lot ), and I have questions:

1. Would Adam had another opportunity to fall if he hadn't eaten from the Tree?
2. I heard if Adam and Eve had repented, God would had restituted them, why would that be the case of they acquired a fallen nature?
3. I read that the theosis state post-resurrection will be better than the state God created the first man. Is the Fall planned by God to give us theosis or something else?

Thanks for your time.

 

[Christ is Lord]

Items 1 and three I would say we simply don't know or cannot know. I will have to do more research on item 3.

 

[D.A. Wright]

I have been thinking ( I do that a lot ), and I have questions:

1. Would Adam had another opportunity to fall if he hadn't eaten from the Tree?
2. I heard if Adam and Eve had repented, God would had restituted them, why would that be the case of they acquired a fallen nature?
3. I read that the theosis state post-resurrection will be better than the state God created the first man. Is the Fall planned by God to give us theosis or something else?

Thanks for your time.

In answer to question 3:

What Exactly Was Accomplished At The Cross?

In short, all that is needed to prevent a 2nd rebellion are the pre-satanic state of creation coupled with the deterrent afforded by the awareness of the suffering which resulted in the scars that remain on Christ's body.

 

[Vicky gould]

I have been thinking ( I do that a lot ), and I have questions:

1. Would Adam had another opportunity to fall if he hadn't eaten from the Tree?
2. I heard if Adam and Eve had repented, God would had restituted them, why would that be the case of they acquired a fallen nature?
3. I read that the theosis state post-resurrection will be better than the state God created the first man. Is the Fall planned by God to give us theosis or something else?

Thanks for your time.

hi, great questions.

Why did God close the Garden to Adam? So fallen Man would not eat from the Tree of Life and live forever in that condition. This was one of the Lord's greatest blessings, death of physical body of flesh when that time came and before they had their exodus out of the Garden the Lord showed them the Way to the Tree of Life by the death of the Innocent in Place of the guilty. That Innocent and as yet unidentified animal was surely the Passover Lamb of God the revelation of the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world had begun. Before they left Adam and Eve knew what to sacrifice the lamb. When to sacrifice in the fullness of time and where to sacrifice on the Eastside of Eden before the true Mercy Seat where the Flashing Sword of fire that is the same flaming Sword the Word of God in His Shekinah Glory. We are separated from our flesh forever never to offend our Lord or to plague us with all the flesh does. If we die on our own we owe the bill for the wage of sin, death. Dying on our opens the way for the promise of God made to Adam to be fulfilled "Dying you shall die." The Lord spoke of two deaths. One death had already begun in our flesh and if you reject the Lamb as your Savior you will die spiritually when thrown into the Lake of Fire the Second death. A beautiful picture of this is Lazarus who having died physically was called by our Lord. The Good Shepherd called His sheep Lazarus and that sheep heard His voice and responded. In a scene similar to the prodigal who had his clothes removed that had all the things on them from what was a time when it would have been equivalent to having died and coming forth from it is dressed or covered by the clothes given to him. We have in Lazarus an advanced picture of our call from death to life and the Lord's call to remove the grave clothes. You may have noticed I love talking about our Lord and the things He has and is doing for each of us.

The fall was not planned by God but as the Good Shepherd He knew what those two sheep were going to do and He provided the way of salvation. When His sheep fell the Good Shepherd< John 10 shows us the Lord as the Good Shepherd. When His sheep became lost the Good Shepherd faithful to His promise came and found His sheep. John 10 tells us His sheep know His voice and respond to and that is just what Adam and Eve did, they responded. When they came to the Good Shepherd He slayed the Innocent in place of the guilty covering with the shed blood of the Innocent Lamb. It is appointed for all men to die once, the flesh, but then the Judgment meaning the Great White Throne Judgment where men will either be covered by the shed Blood of The Lamb of God or have to pay that bill themselves. This is the last step in what lands all men in the Lake of Fire, The Way of Cain, the rejection of God's Lamb as your sacrifice. Sadly we see most of the world has taken the Way of Cain , the wide way, the narrow way passes through an empty tomb of the Risen Passover Lamb of God, Jesus the Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have been thinking ( I do that a lot ), and I have questions:

1. Would Adam had another opportunity to fall if he hadn't eaten from the Tree?

Yes. He was in a state of innocence living under the requirements of God's moral law (this law precedes the Mosaic Law), so there would always be the risk. And I'm sure the devil would not give up easily and would try again and probably be more subtle and deceptive next time.

1. I heard if Adam and Eve had repented, God would had restituted them, why would that be the case of they acquired a fallen nature?

I believe that He would have forgiven them, but they may still have been required to pay a penalty under the justice of God, but not as severe. We cannot know if part of the penalty would be extended to all their descendants.

1. I read that the theosis state post-resurrection will be better than the state God created the first man. Is the Fall planned by God to give us theosis or something else?

Thanks for your time.

I don't think the Fall was planned by God, although through His foreknowledge He knew in advance that it would happen, so He already had the plan of salvation through Christ all prepared.

 

[ArmyMatt]

1. we don't know, probably not though.

2. because no one would have died before then, and that was before God clothed them in skins of flesh (i.e. our course, fallen bodies).

3. not planned but known, but man was created for theosis even if we never fell.

 

[TheLostCoin]

2. because no one would have died before then, and that was before God clothed them in skins of flesh (i.e. our course, fallen bodies).

Wait, what? God reformulated our bodies after we fell?
I always interpreted the story of animal skins as to mean clothing made of rawhide and skins.

 

[Not David]

Wait, what? God reformulated our bodies after we fell?
I always interpreted the story of animal skins as to mean clothing made of rawhide and skins.

Some people believe Adam and Eve had light-like bodies.

 

[Vicky gould]

Wait, what? God reformulated our bodies after we fell?
I always interpreted the story of animal skins as to mean clothing made of rawhide and skins.

hi, nice discussion. I have been under the belief that The Fall took place on what would eventually be revealed as Passover. The Good Shepherd sought His lost sheep and saved them covering with the shed blood of the lamb. When they were covered they "passed over over from death to life." By the time Adam and Eve had undergone their version of an exodus they knew and observed the offering of the Lamb at the appointed time, the appointed place and of course the appointed sacrifice. Abel having the right offering would have come from the haggadah or the telling which must have been recounted each year until the boys would of age to bring their own offering. Cain accepted everything but the Lamb. This has always been the Way of Cain rejection of the Lamb.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Wait, what? God reformulated our bodies after we fell?
I always interpreted the story of animal skins as to mean clothing made of rawhide and skins.

yep, it's our crude, fallen flesh. it wasn't animal skin.

 

[prodromos]

Wait, what? God reformulated our bodies after we fell?
I always interpreted the story of animal skins as to mean clothing made of rawhide and skins.

I suspect it has multiple levels of meaning. It is the first shedding of blood, ie. animals had to die to provide their skins, they are now clothed in dead flesh, which could be symbolic of their present condition after the fall (also perhaps part of why the Gospels are not bound in leather).

 

[TheLostCoin]

yep, it's our crude, fallen flesh. it wasn't animal skin.

I know Father Seraphim Rose (not "Sarov," excuse me) made the argument that we were composed of a sort of supernaturally fused, or even elevated "matter" compared to the matter of the fallen world, but I always understood this as to just be a consequence of sin corrupting matter, not necessarily God creating new bodies for us.

Why would God make us fallen bodies?

And for that matter, what Church Fathers wrote this idea in the first place - besides Origen, whose ideas on creation where anathematized at the 5th and 6th Ecumenical Councils? Do you have any citations?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I know Father Seraphim Rose (not "Sarov," excuse me) made the argument that we were composed of a sort of supernaturally fused, or even elevated "matter" compared to the matter of the fallen world, but I always understood this as to just be a consequence of sin corrupting matter, not necessarily God creating new bodies for us.

Why would God make us fallen bodies?

And for that matter, what Church Fathers wrote this idea in the first place - besides Origen, whose ideas on creation where anathematized at the 5th and 6th Ecumenical Councils? Do you have any citations?

God made us fallen bodies, because we had to live in a fallen world.

pretty sure St Basil gets into this, plus the hymns as we get through Lent.

 

[TKA_TN]

yep, it's our crude, fallen flesh. it wasn't animal skin.

This is fascinating to me. Never have heard this.

 

[Vicky gould]

I have been thinking ( I do that a lot ), and I have questions:

1. Would Adam had another opportunity to fall if he hadn't eaten from the Tree?
2. I heard if Adam and Eve had repented, God would had restituted them, why would that be the case of they acquired a fallen nature?
3. I read that the theosis state post-resurrection will be better than the state God created the first man. Is the Fall planned by God to give us theosis or something else? Thanks for your time.

1. .

HI DAVID, IN MY UNDERSTANDING Adam was created perfectly but as we know not incapable of sinning. Knowing Man could and more importantly would Sin. This being true we are told the Lamb had been slain from the foundation of the world were set in place. The Passover Lamb of God slain before the cross, am I crazy? No.the Lord God Almighty speaks of the things that aren’t as if they are because no one and nothing can stop Him. It is as good as accomplished because His Word does not return to Him void without accomplishing all the Lord wants from it before it returns to Him. Now would begin The revelation of the Passover Lamb and His work saving sinful man. It would be silly and pretty much contradict and be a hindrance to sinful man if the Lord put before him one and only one manner of redemption before men. When we see what transpired in the Garden it is meant to clear up any error. the Lord knew Satan would use many lies to lead men astray would we expect the Lord to creat more opportunity for chaos. Two ways and only two ways were ever presented to men, The Way Of the Passover Lamb, god’s One and only way of Saivation. Satan presented the other way, the Way Of Cain, the rejection of the Lamb. When Adam and Eve sinned the Lord warned them they would die. But it was said in a unique manner. The Lord said that “Dying you will die.” Meaning that on the day they ate this fruit their soul would die and their bodies would also die at a future date. The beginning of the Passover Lamb of God had begun with the Slaying of The Innocent for the Guilty had begun Guilty had begun. The bodies men possessed that day after the fall did not need any cover except The Lamb of God. Not cover fallen bodies but to cover uncovered sin, their nakedness. Their bodies as our bodies was now in a fallen state and had no need of an assist in covering our bodies with anything other than the Son. God’s blessings

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

In answer to question 3:

What Exactly Was Accomplished At The Cross?

In short, all that is needed to prevent a 2nd rebellion are the pre-satanic state of creation coupled with the deterrent afforded by the awareness of the suffering which resulted in the scars that remain on Christ's body.

I agree with this. No mysticism required. Just plain, practical atonement.

 

[Not David]

I agree with this. No mysticism required. Just plain, practical atonement.

I don't believe the atonement was that simple.

 

[Vicky gould]

I have been thinking ( I do that a lot ), and I have questions:

1. Would Adam had another opportunity to fall if he hadn't eaten from the Tree?
2. I heard if Adam and Eve had repented, God would had restituted them, why would that be the case of they acquired a fallen nature?
3. I read that the theosis state post-resurrection will be better than the state God created the first man. Is the Fall planned by God to give us theosis or something else?

Thanks for your time.

1)the Lord felt this was not just a simple fall on his part it began the world we live in today. If not Adan someone would have been raised

2)Adam and Eve did repent and when they came to the Lord the Innocent was slain in the place of the guilty and covered with the blood of The Innocent we are told Adam and Eve passed over from death to life. God allowing our flesh to die is not a punishment it is a blessing if you are a Christian who would want to spend eternity in this body of flesh. not me.

Eve ate first and it appears it was his fault. Adam was told not to eat and does not tell Eve. Adam it would seem then ate the fruit in direct rebellion against God. I do not think he would have but this was what Adam was raised foe.

3)He planned that He could send His Son in the flesh to take all men's sins on that body and die for our sin and show all men what real love is

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

I don't believe the atonement was that simple.

I agree completely. Excuse me, please. I did not mean to suggest that the atonement only consists of that substance which prevents the possibility of a 2nd rebellion; only that simple, forensic characteristics of the atonement were sufficient to execute the efficacious administration of any particular aspect of the plan of redemption.