The fall of Man

[elcapitan]

Why would I assume I am fooling myself when I observe myself make a choice?

Maybe you aren't fooling yourself. Maybe free will is an illusion.

My decisions may be wrong, but I make them. It is not my experiences that makes them and I can and have made decisions that my experiences would make the other way or differently.

It's easy to say that "you" are the one who makes the decisions, but then who are "you"? The soul? The brain? Experiences and memories? Some combination thereof?

 

[SonicBOOM]

Maybe you aren't fooling yourself. Maybe free will is an illusion.

lets keep it simple. there's no logical reason to believe God is controlling our every action without us knowing it.

It's easy to say that "you" are the one who makes the decisions, but then who are "you"? The soul? The brain? Experiences and memories? Some combination thereof?

humans are spirit, soul, body. Pretty straightforward again... to say that mankind's freewill is just an illusion is all guesswork and there's no support for really any of it.

 

[elcapitan]

lets keep it simple. there's no logical reason to believe God is controlling our every action without us knowing it.

You should read my earlier comments.

Even if you ignore the scientific objections, you are still faced with a dilemma: is there no free will or is God not all-knowing? If you assume that God already knows all of our future choices with absolute certainty, then logically we can't make any other choices.

If God knew with absolute certainty that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, it would have been logically impossible for them to not eat it.

That hardly sounds like "free will" to me.

The alternative is that God is not all-knowing

humans are spirit, soul, body. Pretty straightforward again... to say that mankind's freewill is just an illusion is all guesswork and there's no support for really any of it.

I guess what I should have asked is "what part of the 'human' makes decisions?".

 

[SonicBOOM]

You should read my earlier comments.

You could also consider the fact that the human brain is a complex network of neurons, which are composed of various biochemicals. Our "minds" could just be the emergent result of all the chemical reations that occur within the brain. If this is the case, we wouldn't really be making choices or have free will, because "making choices" is just chemicals reacting with other chemicals in neurons that affect other neurons.

your only pointing out what is seen in the human mind. Yes... the brain is composed of chemicals. however.... how do you know there's not more to it? If you disect a dead human brain your might see this... but what happens when the brain inside a man is still livng? Yes... you'll notice the chemicals at work... but is that all there really is to it? I don't think we can say with confedence that thats the case.... because we are only examining what is seen.

Even if you ignore the scientific objections, you are still faced with a dilemma: is there no free will or is God not all-knowing? If you assume that God already knows all of our future choices with absolute certainty, then logically we can't make any other choices.

as i said earlier. Being all-knowing and being all-planning are not dependent on each-other. We can know without a doubt how our day is going to go.... and still have it not meet our expectations. Just because God is all knowing doesn't mean he ordained absolutely everything. It's quite simple if you really think about it.

If God knew with absolute certainty that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, it would have been logically impossible for them to not eat it.

That hardly sounds like "free will" to me.

The alternative is that God is not all-knowing

that's non-sense because there's clearly a third option. God is all knowing but he allows us to make choices. This is not a contradiction because you can know what your son is gonna do and still let him do it. God knew Adam and Eve would eat from the tree and the result of it all. Yet... this hardly means he controlled our destinies. He simply knew what was gonna happen. Why didn't God stop Adam and Eve than? He wanted to show that he had trust. Afterall.... This is AFTER God tells Adam "let them rule over all the fish in the sea and all the birds in the air". Put simply? Adam is king.... Adam is the ruler as of now and the earth belongs to him. To have God step in would be like telling your son "I trust you to take care of things while I'm gone" and than walk in on him and say "I know what you were gonna do! Stop that!". When God told Adam and Eve to rule... he put them in charge and trusted them.

it's simple:

1. God knows

2. Humans make bad choices

3. God lets it happen because he wants to give us that freedom.

it's hard to understand but I think if you think in very simple terms you'll began to understand it. You may know how your day is gonna go... but does that mean that's what you originally desired?? By no means!

 

[Armistead]

Dear Armistead. I enjoyed reading your interpretation of the fall of man, and some of your replies made me smile. I too, have thought and meditated similar, but may I point out one or differences? ( humbly and with love of course) God made us in His image, perfect in perfect love. God was always there, but Evil too. God always knew that the Evil one would try to tempt Adam and Eve into disobedience and disloyalty to Him, our Creator and God. We were banned to Earth to learn to love, love God with all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind, as well to love each other, as we love ourselves, to treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves. We all know what happened, instead of repenting we moved farther and farther away from God, who is all Love and wants us back again, but being well able to say NO to all temptation the world offers. In time Jesus came, lived amongst us for 33 years, showed us God really, and paid the price which God`s Holy Law demanded. Jesus reconciled us to God and is waiting to lead us back to God, and guide us all the way. Our price to pay is not easy, but can be achieved with the guidance of our Saviour. LOVE God, as he deserves to be loved, and learn to live in love and harmony together. We have the Lord`s Love, Joy and Peace, we must share it now. I say this with love and assurance, Armistead, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

I'm not sure where we disagree, except you said God made us perfect...that he did not do. He made us capable to sin...Christ who was perfect could not sin.
Only God is perfect. Obvious man wasn't perfect in the garden.

 

[Armistead]

I think there's a difference between knowing and ordaining though. for example, lets say someone is taking you out on a date. You really wanna go out to eat at a very fancy restaurant. However... you already know how the night's gonna go. Your gonna sit down at a pizza parlor because that's what your date wants to do. Now... you know what is going to happen right? But it's clearly not what you desired. You can know the future and still have that future not meet your original desires. That's the problem with sharing your life with others. When you share your life with others things will happen that will not meet your expectations because there are other people with other desires of their own. the only way to have a perfect plan is to live alone and not even have a dog. Of course... no one wants to live alone. All this is the same with God. He choose to create because he wanted companionship and out of his mercy he is willing to let us turn and twist the story of life to a certain extant.

Here is what I am saying. If God as all knowing, then what he sets in motion is ordained by him. Certainly, man would not have fallen had God not put the pieces in order.

Satan removed and allowed to keep his power.

Satan placed on earth with man.

The tree placed in the garden..

Satan allowed to tempt man.

In all these things, man had no choice, yet all were needed for him to fall. Had God taken away one, man
would be in the garden today.

God knowing that each piece he put in place would have a result and placed them anyway...in that he had to ordain the fall. This is not God just knowing what man would do and made Christ the remedy. These were direct actions by God. If God intended for man to stay in the garden, then it appears God tempted man in everyway or blackmailed him to fall.

If man did not fall, we would be no different than the angels. It is the experience of freewill, evil and knowledge that makes us different from all other created beings. It also gives heaven perspective.

Man was not commanded to not eat of the tree of life.
Why did they not simply do that first? It was not God's will.

God's plan of evil, freewill and salvation was intended from the beginning. Heaven was to be the end result.
Man was made in God's image, but in heaven we will be just like Christ.

 

[elcapitan]

your only pointing out what is seen in the human mind. Yes... the brain is composed of chemicals. however.... how do you know there's not more to it? If you disect a dead human brain your might see this... but what happens when the brain inside a man is still livng? Yes... you'll notice the chemicals at work... but is that all there really is to it? I don't think we can say with confedence that thats the case.... because we are only examining what is seen.

I'm not saying that you can reduce the mind to just biology (at least not yet). However, you should keep in mind that Phineas Gage, people with lobotomies, those exposed to mercury, people with brain damange and others have experienced biological changes that observably changed they way they acted. If there is a soul that makes decisions, it is observably overpowered by biology.

as i said earlier. Being all-knowing and being all-planning are not dependent on each-other. We can know without a doubt how our day is going to go.... and still have it not meet our expectations.

This doesn't make sense. If we know without a doubt, it has to meet our expectations. If it doesn't, then we didn't know without a doubt..

Just because God is all knowing doesn't mean he ordained absolutely everything. It's quite simple if you really think about it.

If that's the case, then there are things beyond His control

that's non-sense because there's clearly a third option. God is all knowing but he allows us to make choices. This is not a contradiction because you can know what your son is gonna do and still let him do it. God knew Adam and Eve would eat from the tree and the result of it all. Yet... this hardly means he controlled our destinies. He simply knew what was gonna happen. Why didn't God stop Adam and Eve than? He wanted to show that he had trust. Afterall.... This is AFTER God tells Adam "let them rule over all the fish in the sea and all the birds in the air". Put simply? Adam is king.... Adam is the ruler as of now and the earth belongs to him. To have God step in would be like telling your son "I trust you to take care of things while I'm gone" and than walk in on him and say "I know what you were gonna do! Stop that!". When God told Adam and Eve to rule... he put them in charge and trusted them.

it's simple:

1. God knows

2. Humans make bad choices

3. God lets it happen because he wants to give us that freedom.

it's hard to understand but I think if you think in very simple terms you'll began to understand it.

My argument was not that God doesn't allow us to make choices, but that logic doesn't.

By your logic, Adam and Eve still didn't have free will because it was impossible for them to not eat the fruit. If God knew (with absolute certainty) that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, He could not have stopped them from doing so. If He did stop them, He would have refuted His own all-knowingness. Also, if Adam and Eve could have chosen to not eat the fruit, then God's all-knowingness would have been refuted.

it's simple:

Rule 1: God knows the future with absolute certainty.

Rule 2: Humans must make decisions that are in concordance with Rule 1. Humans do not have the free will to decide otherwise because that would violate Rule 1.

The only way that people would be able to make their own decisions would be if Rule 1 was false.

If I see an apple falling from a tree, I can predict that it will hit the ground. However, someone could still catch the apple, thus proving my prediction to be false. By contrast, the certain knowledge of the future that God has can never be false by its nature.

You may know how your day is gonna go... but does that mean that's what you originally desired?? By no means!

My argument was not about what God desires, but what God knows.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

God must know everything, because if he as I believe from a more logical point of view, existent outside of time then he would have to know everything. (I once defined the absence of time for a lack of a better definition: The absence of time is everything time is, and everything it isn't. Everything that happens in the absence of time has already happened, will happen, is happening, will never happen. The absence of time is the past, the present, and the future, and at the same time the absence of all three.)

Therefore, for lack of a better understanding and vocab, the future has already passed before God. The decisions we make once are the same decisions we would make over and over again if the scenario were to be replicated exactly. Our decisions are written in stone, yet I believe it is us--and no one else--who writes these actions.

 

[SonicBOOM]

I'm not saying that you can reduce the mind to just biology (at least not yet). However, you should keep in mind that Phineas Gage, people with lobotomies, those exposed to mercury, people with brain damange and others have experienced biological changes that observably changed they way they acted. If there is a soul that makes decisions, it is observably overpowered by biology.

I'd say more intertwined and this is why the body is just as valid as the soul. When the soul gets damaged it's gonna effect the way the body functions, when the body gets damaged it's going to effect the way the soul functions. Body, soul, spirit are like links in a chain. when one is damaged it effects the other 2...... well at least these are my observations.

This doesn't make sense. If we know without a doubt, it has to meet our expectations. If it doesn't, then we didn't know without a doubt..

nope! Our expectations of what is gonna happen has alot to do with what we desire... our knowledge we have no control over. we may know it... but we have no control over it. I may sound like I'm downsizing God's sovernty... but consider this. If we have no free will why is God calling out to us in the prophetic books? I thought he could control us? Apparently he can't.

If that's the case, then there are things beyond His control

not so much out of his control as much as stuff he refuses to control. He gave humanity a real life and gave it as a gift. God is no indian giver. If life is 100% gift than it's US who chooses how to use that gift.

My argument was not that God doesn't allow us to make choices, but that logic doesn't.

By your logic, Adam and Eve still didn't have free will because it was impossible for them to not eat the fruit. If God knew (with absolute certainty) that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, He could not have stopped them from doing so. If He did stop them, He would have refuted His own all-knowingness. Also, if Adam and Eve could have chosen to not eat the fruit, then God's all-knowingness would have been refuted.

I think your thinking to deep about this. God knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit because they choose to eat it. It had nothing to do with God's eternal insight. It was pure choice in it's smallest form. If God would've stopped them than yes... God would've known that he would've stopped them... but that still doesn't eliminate Adam and Eve's free will. It drives it further because in this sense God has to intervene. If God has to intervene on his own sovernty than God is 2 faced.

it's simple:

Rule 1: God knows the future with absolute certainty.

Rule 2: Humans must make decisions that are in concordance with Rule 1. Humans do not have the free will to decide otherwise because that would violate Rule 1.

The only way that people would be able to make their own decisions would be if Rule 1 was false.

I guess the quistion here is can free choice and eternal insight co-exist together? I don't see why they can't.

If I see an apple falling from a tree, I can predict that it will hit the ground. However, someone could still catch the apple, thus proving my prediction to be false. By contrast, the certain knowledge of the future that God has can never be false by its nature.

yes... but you can also know the apple will be caught by someone... but you could at the same time desire the apple NOT to be caught. Think of it as 2 realities. World one is what God originally intended, world 2 is what is actually reality. God knows both worlds, but world 2 is shaped by man's own free will while world 1 is shaped by God's design.

 

[elcapitan]

Maybe I should try to re-explain myself.

If God is all-knowing, and thus has absolute, certain knowledge of all future events, then all future events are immutable. (It's what ArchaicTruth is talking about.)

But, if the future is immutable, how can we have "free will" in any meaningful sense? If we can't change the future, or even make different decisions from what has been predicted, can we really call it free will?

If the decisions we make once are the same decisions we would make over and over again (if the scenario were to be replicated exactly), then the scenario determines our decisions. If free will exists we'd have to be able to choose differently even if the scenario was replicated exactly.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

I don't believe we can change the future, but I do believe our future was built by us.

 

[SonicBOOM]

I don't believe we can change the future, but I do believe our future was built by us.

this is what I was trying get at I know God knows everything but I still don't see how that eliminates our freewill. I think focusing to much on God's eternal insight is prolly what caused Einstein to be such a nutcase [jk btw]. Seriously when you try to think of time travel and all that stuff... insanity is the only result. It's like asking a calculator to assess irrational equations! It'll say "does not compute" because the information it has available to itself is limited.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

so, I'm not about to stop

loops are fun as hell

 

[simpletrust]

I can observe that I can chose to be loving or not loving. Can you not observe the same thing?

I observe that I feel as though I make a choice, but there is no evidence that what I am feeling was not also determined.

Why would I assume I am fooling myself when I observe myself make a choice?

I'm not saying you would assume that. Of course you wouldn't. But what you assume isn't relevant.

Maybe you aren't fooling yourself. Maybe free will is an illusion.



It's easy to say that "you" are the one who makes the decisions, but then who are "you"? The soul? The brain? Experiences and memories? Some combination thereof?

Exactly.

lets keep it simple. there's no logical reason to believe God is controlling our every action without us knowing it.

Well, as I said earlier, the bible does point to many examples of people doing stuff and the scripture says that it was because God wanted it... He could control everything for all we know. I mean, does anyone really know?