The fall of Man

[ArchaicTruth]

Well, it really comes down to what you define as "free will". Most of the time it comes to loops, it's not as bad as time travel though (nasty stuff that).

 

[simpletrust]

As he put it, there is always choice.

But how do we know that?

(I'm not saying I believe that we DON'T have free will, I'm not saying we do either, it does bug me that it's often assumed without being justified.)

 

[Isambard]

But how do we know that?

(I'm not saying I believe that we DON'T have free will, I'm not saying we do either, it does bug me that it's often assumed without being justified.)

Is there a scenerio where I wouldnt have choice?

 

[ArchaicTruth]

"I'm thinking you perceived my joke in a fashion unintended by myself, nonetheless, I chuckled at it, so it's all good

Here's what I think, now I have two views on the matter of free will.

View 1: More of a religious view. If we have a soul, I would think such an entity would exist mostly disconnected from the experiences of the physical world, allowing it to make free decisions.

View 2: A common argument against free will is that we cannot make our own choices because we are made up of experiences, and it is those experiences that make up who we are and what decisions we will make, so therefore we cannot have free will. However, if we are those experiences, and those experiences are determining our choices, then it really is we who are making those decisions. Of course, view 2 is a rather weak view, but valid either way. Besides, I like to think I have free will anyways, even if I don't. It's one of those illusions that can't really hurt anyone, and I suppose I could be called a rebel...uh...rock on?"

Here's an answer I had to freewill somewhere else. Again, I really need you to define free will for me so I can move forward more accurately.

 

[Armistead]

It is obvious they had freewill in the garden before the fall, as they could choose to eat or not. It seems obvious that God put every piece in place for man to fall.

What man did not have was knowledge and God provided that. It's not that knowledge is evil, but how you use it..in that God did not create evil.

I don't think God ever intended the garden to be our
eternal home. He already had that planned out through
Christ. If man remained in the garden, there would be no need for Christ.

I think the garden is just symbolic of our heavenly home.

 

[simpletrust]

Biblically speaking it's a bit difficult sometimes to determine whether or not we have free will because there are so many times the bible says that someone did something because God made it that way, even if it was something bad.

Also, another argument against free will is that your experience of having a choice may also have been determined, and your "choice" determined also.

 

[elcapitan]

"I'm thinking you perceived my joke in a fashion unintended by myself, nonetheless, I chuckled at it, so it's all good

Here's what I think, now I have two views on the matter of free will.

View 1: More of a religious view. If we have a soul, I would think such an entity would exist mostly disconnected from the experiences of the physical world, allowing it to make free decisions.

View 2: A common argument against free will is that we cannot make our own choices because we are made up of experiences, and it is those experiences that make up who we are and what decisions we will make, so therefore we cannot have free will. However, if we are those experiences, and those experiences are determining our choices, then it really is we who are making those decisions. Of course, view 2 is a rather weak view, but valid either way. Besides, I like to think I have free will anyways, even if I don't. It's one of those illusions that can't really hurt anyone, and I suppose I could be called a rebel...uh...rock on?"

You could also consider the fact that the human brain is a complex network of neurons, which are composed of various biochemicals. Our "minds" could just be the emergent result of all the chemical reations that occur within the brain. If this is the case, we wouldn't really be making choices or have free will, because "making choices" is just chemicals reacting with other chemicals in neurons that affect other neurons.

Also, special relativity suggests that the flow of time (and thus, free will) is an illusion. Events that are simultaneous to one observer may not be simultaneous for another observer. As a result, an event that has already been observed by one observer can still be in another observer's "future". This means that the future has already been determined and is just as immutable as the past.

 

[elcapitan]

Biblically speaking it's a bit difficult sometimes to determine whether or not we have free will because there are so many times the bible says that someone did something because God made it that way, even if it was something bad.

Also, another argument against free will is that your experience of having a choice may also have been determined, and your "choice" determined also.

A common belief in Christianity (or at least the Catholicism in which I was raised) is that God already knows the all the decisions we make, but we somehow still have free will.

The best explanation I have heard so far that attempts to reconcile this conflict is that we can make "free will" decisions, but God already knows all the "free will" decisions that we will make. However, if our decisions are known with absolute certainty, how can we have free will in any meaningful way?

If God knew beforehand, with absolute certainty, that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, they could not have chosen otherwise. The only alternative is that God isn't all-knowing and doesn't have absolute certainty about our choices.

 

[SonicBOOM]

I have been debating this in my mind for years. As I study it, I find myself debating did man fall on his own or did God intend that man fall.

It appears to me that God not only intended that man should fall, but that he ordained it.

We know God knows all and trillions of years before it happened he knows the result...just using time.

God made Satan, knowing Satan would fall. Obvious, God created him anyway.

When Satan fell, God cast him out of heaven.

God creates man on earth. Not to debate the garden, but for discussion, let's say it's literal. You know the story, God places the tree and tells them not to eat, because it contains all knowledge. Satan tempts Eve, she sins, Adam eat,,,man is doomed.

However, God removed Satan from heaven. Where did he place him..on the same earth that he placed man.
God also did not take away Satan's power. He let him keep it. Satan also found his way into the garden with this great power. Another point, why place the tree there anyway? Take it away, man would have never fell.
Man obvious had freewill before the fall, because he could choose to eat or not. Obvious, they stayed away, no matter the desire, until Satan shows up.

It appears that all the pieces were put in place for man to fall. God could have destroyed Satan, at least taken away his power. God could have put him elsewhere, why on the same planet with man. If GOd intended that man remain sinless in the garden, take away Satan and the tree and there man would remain.

My opinion is God planned the fall. It was not the fault of Adam or Eve. I don't think God would judge all mankind over the actions of one. It was his will to bring all knowledge to man, so that they could have total free will to do good or evil. That the garden is just symbolic of heaven.

I think there's a difference between knowing and ordaining though. for example, lets say someone is taking you out on a date. You really wanna go out to eat at a very fancy restaurant. However... you already know how the night's gonna go. Your gonna sit down at a pizza parlor because that's what your date wants to do. Now... you know what is going to happen right? But it's clearly not what you desired. You can know the future and still have that future not meet your original desires. That's the problem with sharing your life with others. When you share your life with others things will happen that will not meet your expectations because there are other people with other desires of their own. the only way to have a perfect plan is to live alone and not even have a dog. Of course... no one wants to live alone. All this is the same with God. He choose to create because he wanted companionship and out of his mercy he is willing to let us turn and twist the story of life to a certain extant.

 

[simpletrust]

The best explanation I have heard so far that attempts to reconcile this conflict is that we can make "free will" decisions, but God already knows all the "free will" decisions that we will make. However, if our decisions are known with absolute certainty, how can we have free will in any meaningful way?

That's my dilemma.

If God knew beforehand, with absolute certainty, that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, they could not have chosen otherwise. The only alternative is that God isn't all-knowing and doesn't have absolute certainty about our choices.

This is a contradiction that has bugged me, especially when we studied it in philosophy.

Thanks, you've explained the problem which I would have struggled to explain.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Armistead. I enjoyed reading your interpretation of the fall of man, and some of your replies made me smile. I too, have thought and meditated similar, but may I point out one or differences? ( humbly and with love of course) God made us in His image, perfect in perfect love. God was always there, but Evil too. God always knew that the Evil one would try to tempt Adam and Eve into disobedience and disloyalty to Him, our Creator and God. We were banned to Earth to learn to love, love God with all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind, as well to love each other, as we love ourselves, to treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves. We all know what happened, instead of repenting we moved farther and farther away from God, who is all Love and wants us back again, but being well able to say NO to all temptation the world offers. In time Jesus came, lived amongst us for 33 years, showed us God really, and paid the price which God`s Holy Law demanded. Jesus reconciled us to God and is waiting to lead us back to God, and guide us all the way. Our price to pay is not easy, but can be achieved with the guidance of our Saviour. LOVE God, as he deserves to be loved, and learn to live in love and harmony together. We have the Lord`s Love, Joy and Peace, we must share it now. I say this with love and assurance, Armistead, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[SonicBOOM]

Dear Armistead. I enjoyed reading your interpretation of the fall of man, and some of your replies made me smile. I too, have thought and meditated similar, but may I point out one or differences? ( humbly and with love of course) God made us in His image, perfect in perfect love. God was always there, but Evil too. God always knew that the Evil one would try to tempt Adam and Eve into disobedience and disloyalty to Him, our Creator and God. We were banned to Earth to learn to love, love God with all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind, as well to love each other, as we love ourselves, to treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves. We all know what happened, instead of repenting we moved farther and farther away from God, who is all Love and wants us back again, but being well able to say NO to all temptation the world offers. In time Jesus came, lived amongst us for 33 years, showed us God really, and paid the price which God`s Holy Law demanded. Jesus reconciled us to God and is waiting to lead us back to God, and guide us all the way. Our price to pay is not easy, but can be achieved with the guidance of our Saviour. LOVE God, as he deserves to be loved, and learn to live in love and harmony together. We have the Lord`s Love, Joy and Peace, we must share it now. I say this with love and assurance, Armistead, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

I wouldn't call placing us on earth a "punishment". I love the earth and I know of no place more beautiful in appearance. In-fact... if it wasn't for evil I think life on earth would be the closest thing to heaven we can possibly get. God made man FROM the earth and he told us to rule OVER the earth and in revelation the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven TO the earth. I think it's pretty clear that the earth was and is our original home. Now I don't believe "the world" is our home. I believe the earth is. There's a difference. When the bible talks about "the world" they are referring to "the ways of the world" which is quite frankly our sinfulness.

I still hold the classic view that there's evil because of free will. Now it's an old and tired argument... but that's only because it's never really been popular or considered. There are clearly only 2 choices 1. create living "dead" humans. Or create humans with unique personalities and make them "alive". If God thought evil was a fair price to pay for us being "alive" than I agree with him. Yes things are bad... but I know of nothing more beautiful than a human living in the free abundance of life that Christ gave himself for. It's simply breathe-taking and this is where humanity shows it's true and breathe-taking beauty.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Some atheists argue that if God existed, then he can't be truly intelligent because he would have had to have learned that intelligence from another being. I always thought it interesting that God might have created us to learn from us, as I see notice that God almost seems to be learning through the bible, approaching men with different promises and words, like the God in the new Testament is quite different from the one in the old. Just a thought of course, I haven't quite finished the whole bible just yet XD

 

[elman]

I have been debating this in my mind for years. As I study it, I find myself debating did man fall on his own or did God intend that man fall.

It appears to me that God not only intended that man should fall, but that he ordained it.

We know God knows all and trillions of years before it happened he knows the result...just using time.

God made Satan, knowing Satan would fall. Obvious, God created him anyway.

When Satan fell, God cast him out of heaven.

God creates man on earth. Not to debate the garden, but for discussion, let's say it's literal. You know the story, God places the tree and tells them not to eat, because it contains all knowledge. Satan tempts Eve, she sins, Adam eat,,,man is doomed.

However, God removed Satan from heaven. Where did he place him..on the same earth that he placed man.
God also did not take away Satan's power. He let him keep it. Satan also found his way into the garden with this great power. Another point, why place the tree there anyway? Take it away, man would have never fell.
Man obvious had freewill before the fall, because he could choose to eat or not. Obvious, they stayed away, no matter the desire, until Satan shows up.

It appears that all the pieces were put in place for man to fall. God could have destroyed Satan, at least taken away his power. God could have put him elsewhere, why on the same planet with man. If GOd intended that man remain sinless in the garden, take away Satan and the tree and there man would remain.

My opinion is God planned the fall. It was not the fault of Adam or Eve. I don't think God would judge all mankind over the actions of one. It was his will to bring all knowledge to man, so that they could have total free will to do good or evil. That the garden is just symbolic of heaven.

I agree God would not judge us on the actions of Adam. Ezekiel 18. God did not want us to be unloving to others. He created us with the ability to be unloving to others and He knew we would use that abililty. This does not mean God intended us to be unloving and it does not mean He wanted us to be unloving. It is simply the way we had to be created in order for us to be able to chose to be loving and that is what He wanted, for us to chose to be loving.

 

[elman]

But how do we know that?

(I'm not saying I believe that we DON'T have free will, I'm not saying we do either, it does bug me that it's often assumed without being justified.)

I can observe that I can chose to be loving or not loving. Can you not observe the same thing?

 

[elman]

"I'm thinking you perceived my joke in a fashion unintended by myself, nonetheless, I chuckled at it, so it's all good

Here's what I think, now I have two views on the matter of free will.

View 1: More of a religious view. If we have a soul, I would think such an entity would exist mostly disconnected from the experiences of the physical world, allowing it to make free decisions.

View 2: A common argument against free will is that we cannot make our own choices because we are made up of experiences, and it is those experiences that make up who we are and what decisions we will make, so therefore we cannot have free will. However, if we are those experiences, and those experiences are determining our choices, then it really is we who are making those decisions. Of course, view 2 is a rather weak view, but valid either way. Besides, I like to think I have free will anyways, even if I don't. It's one of those illusions that can't really hurt anyone, and I suppose I could be called a rebel...uh...rock on?"

Here's an answer I had to freewill somewhere else. Again, I really need you to define free will for me so I can move forward more accurately.

Our experiences do not determine our choices. If they did we would not make the same mistake twice.

 

[elman]

Biblically speaking it's a bit difficult sometimes to determine whether or not we have free will because there are so many times the bible says that someone did something because God made it that way, even if it was something bad.

Also, another argument against free will is that your experience of having a choice may also have been determined, and your "choice" determined also.

Why would I assume I am fooling myself when I observe myself make a choice?

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Our experiences do not determine our choices. If they did we would not make the same mistake twice.

That's just it, all of us experience things in different ways, and many times our views are flawed, therefore creating mistakes

 

[elman]

That's just it, all of us experience things in different ways, and many times our views are flawed, therefore creating mistakes

My decisions may be wrong, but I make them. It is not my experiences that makes them and I can and have made decisions that my experiences would make the other way or differently.

 

[SonicBOOM]

Some atheists argue that if God existed, then he can't be truly intelligent because he would have had to have learned that intelligence from another being. I always thought it interesting that God might have created us to learn from us, as I see notice that God almost seems to be learning through the bible, approaching men with different promises and words, like the God in the new Testament is quite different from the one in the old. Just a thought of course, I haven't quite finished the whole bible just yet XD

I have heard this before... but I think it's nothing but bull-honky. First off the idea of God getting intelligence from another being is almost completely irrelevant in and of itself. It begs the question "why". Ok... God exists but he's not intelligent for some strange reason. Can someone tell me why?

Second, God is clearly the same person in the OT and NT. This theory comes from a very shallow understanding of scripture. In the OT God is a God of justice but also peace for his loved ones, he is a God who makes promises and fulfills them, he's savour when his people get into trouble and he never ever leaves his people! In the NT God is a God of justice but also peace for his loved ones, he is a God who makes promises and fulfills them, he's a savour when his people get into trouble and he never ever leaves his people. Maybe the misconception comes from emphasis. The OT does kind of put God's justice in the spotlight, while the NT focuses more on his mercy.