The 'evil' in the Old Testament

[guava]

Ducknill,

The verse that you have posted is talking about people receiving the word of god. Your interpretation is not the word of god. What is being received here is duckbill interpretation of the word of god and not the word of god

No one is disputing whether those verses are attributed to god or someone else in the bible. The issue there is no evidence that there is this thing called hell where people get tormented non stop

I really can't see why you posted that verse unless you are trying to say that your word is the word of god ..

.Why do people think they are wiser than the word of god ? you know someone who is rude might very well tell you that they don't read people's mind or ask you to .name the person and they will ask him and see what he says and get back to you with an answer

The people thinking they are wiser than duckbill doesn't translate into the people thinking they are wiser than the word of god

I just finished talking about the problems with dualities and you still want to lump people together. All that you are doing is dividing people along your own interpretation of what the word of god means to you. .

In western human thought which is Christian based it is deemed that whenever people have freedom of thought it is expected that they differ philosophically politically religiously and what have you . Any unanimity of thought is to be taken to have been enforced and anyone who suggests such unanimity is suspect of trying to subvert the institutions of a free society

One thing commendable about the spread of Christianity in Africa today is what it is doing to the people. The churches, some of them , are set up with constitutions and by laws, with members of different categories in terms of voting rights and duties and responsibilities and transparency as to financial matters and clauses that can be used to fire ministers and replace them . It is like hands on training for a future republican mind set .

constitutional Democracy will be fine for the people. . It teaches to stir away from tyranny as well as to stir away from anarchy. What you want is not rigid conformity which will arrest the religious community nor do you want chaos which will tear it apart. . anyway its never Conformity because it is not conformity to the word of god but to the meaning we attach to the word. A middle of the road approach is attainable and not Utopian

I think you are worried that people will not hesitate to commit sin if there is no fear of punishment. that might work with a child and even then its debatable. The fear of punishment is not a factor in the commission of crime. Empathy and proper upbringing play a role.

 

[Duckybill]

Ducknill,

The verse that you have posted is talking about people receiving the word of god.

Actually Paul is declaring his letters to be "the Word of God".

Your interpretation is not the word of god. What is being received here is duckbill interpretation of the word of god and not the word of god

What interpretation???

No one is disputing whether those verses are attributed to god or someone else in the bible. The issue there is no evidence that there is this thing called hell where people get tormented non stop

There's plenty.

Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

I really can't see why you posted that verse unless you are trying to say that your word is the word of god ..

Never have said nor implied such. Why are you?

Why do people think they are wiser than the word of god ? you know someone who is rude might very well tell you that they don't read people's mind or ask you to .name the person and they will ask him and see what he says and get back to you with an answer

It's common practice to attack and deny what the Bible says. It goes on here in CF every day. Satan is always using deceived humans to attack God's Word, the Bible.

The people thinking they are wiser than duckbill doesn't translate into the people thinking they are wiser than the word of god

Never said it did.

I just finished talking about the problems with dualities and you still want to lump people together. All that you are doing is dividing people along your own interpretation of what the word of god means to you. .

Again I ask, what "interpretation"?

In western human thought which is Christian based it is deemed that whenever people have freedom of thought it is expected that they differ philosophically politically religiously and what have you . Any unanimity of thought is to be taken to have been enforced and anyone who suggests such unanimity is suspect of trying to subvert the institutions of a free society

Huh?

One thing commendable about the spread of Christianity in Africa today is what it is doing to the people. The churches, some of them , are set up with constitutions and by laws, with members of different categories in terms of voting rights and duties and responsibilities and transparency as to financial matters and clauses that can be used to fire ministers and replace them . It is like hands on training for a future republican mind set .

constitutional Democracy will be fine for the people. . It teaches to stir away from tyranny as well as to stir away from anarchy. What you want is not rigid conformity which will arrest the religious community nor do you want chaos which will tear it apart. . anyway its never Conformity because it is not conformity to the word of god but to the meaning we attach to the word. A middle of the road approach is attainable and not Utopian

I think you are worried that people will not hesitate to commit sin if there is no fear of punishment. that might work with a child and even then its debatable. The fear of punishment is not a factor in the commission of crime. Empathy and proper upbringing play a role.

Proverbs 1:7 (NKJV)
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

[chingchang]

There are two different types of death you are relating, the physical body and the spiritual and they are not the same thing. Bible talks about the first death which all human beings will experience, but those who believe and trust by faith in Jesus will not be harmed by the second death. First off, the second death is eternal separation from God...that should be enough to make anyone want to change course but many don't realize that the restraining hand of God prevents all of mankind from the unseen spiritual wickedness that is all around us. In hell, there is; no peace, no joy, no hope and that in itself would be torments, because you can't die and it just never ends. There are more references to hell than heaven in the Bible.

You're wrong. The idea of every soul being immortal is a pagan belief and is contrary to what Yeshua tells us in Matthew 10:28 (NIV):

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Why would Yeshua tell us that Yahweh can DESTROY (bring to an end) BOTH body AND soul in hell if that is NOT what he intended to do? Is it that God CAN destroy both body and soul in hell...but chooses not to and then Yeshua simply tells us that God CAN to tease the nonbelievers? Is he saying to them..."God could destroy your soul in hell if he wanted to...but he doesn't want to...he'd rather see you tortured endlessly."?????????

Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of the fate that awaits the wicked. What happened in Sodom and Gomorrah? Total and complete destruction...nothing left.

You'll get this one day...whether in this life or in eternity...you'll see that our Father is love. He will never torture. Chaff is thrown into the fire where it is destroyed...nothing left.

CC

 

[guava]

Duckbill

I suggested to you before you should qualify the phrase forever and ever. Your understanding of the phrase is based on the bible according to duckbill. not the bible .please don't make me repeat myself again. .

You worry yourself about the word of god yet everything you say is from the bible according to duckbill.when do you mean to stop that ?

I said fear of punishment not fear of god. My claim is supported with extensive sociological research and statistics.

I'm always amused to watch a western mind set grabble with the verses in the bible. confusion ensues . .you think the verse about the fear of god is the beginning of knowledge is about fear of god . its not . it is talking about the fear that strikes the heart of man when he tries to learn and finds that things are not as he had imagined and thought they were and he begins to be afraid . its talking about learning and not just learning but about a man who has embarked on the road of knowledge. that fear is the first thing he will encounter .. This is a fear you have to overcome not embrace and abandon yourself to like you are doing .you do that and there very little hope you can beat that fear ..

Now before you start on me knowledge here is not epistemology. it is not .knowledge it is talking about is something that will make the hair on your head stand form shock. Incidentally the previous verse which you have posted about the word of god being received that translation by KJV is very misleading. First off the word is not received. . Secondly it was not the word of god that got delivered.. it was news from god .the verses is talking about the good news .

In English frankly the whole thing is so mixed and muddled up ., its no wonder you are so confused . worse still I have to deal on top of that with the bible according to duckbill.

I don't know about Satan but I think you should stop following the bible as according to duckbill

what wisdom duckbill ? the wisdom to rule ? i just talked about tyranny didn't I ?

 

[Duckybill]

God is not going to reward the wicked with eternal peace by destroying them. Ain't gonna happen.

Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

 

[Duckybill]

Duckbill

I suggested to you before you should qualify the phrase forever and ever.

I did. It means exactly what it says.

Your understanding of the phrase is based on the bible according to duckbill. not the bible .please don't make me repeat myself again. .

I didn't write this:

Mark 9:43-48 (NKJV)
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 44 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 46 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire-- 48 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

You worry yourself about the word of god yet everything you say is from the bible according to duckbill.when do you mean to stop that ?

Sorry, I didn't write any of the Bible. You'll have to blame God.

Matthew 13:41-42 (NKJV)
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I said fear of punishment not fear of god. My claim is supported with extensive sociological research and statistics.

I'd rather believe God's Word.

Jude 1:7 (NKJV)
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

I'm always amused to watch a western mind set grabble with the verses in the bible. confusion ensues . .you think the verse about the fear of god is the beginning of knowledge is about fear of god . its not .

The fear of God isn't about the fear of God???

it is talking about the fear that strikes the heart of man when he tries to learn and finds that things are not as he had imagined and thought they were and he begins to be afraid . its talking about learning and not just learning but about a man who has embarked on the road of knowledge. that fear is the first thing he will encounter .. This is a fear you have to overcome not embrace and abandon yourself to like you are doing .you do that and there very little hope you can beat that fear ..

The FEAR OF GOD means fearing the God who drowned everyone on Earth but 8 because of wickedness. You do believe in the Genesis Flood, right? Take note:making them an example

2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Now before you start on me knowledge here is not epistemology. it is not .knowledge it is talking about is something that will make the hair on your head stand form shock. Incidentally the previous verse which you have posted about the word of god being received that translation by KJV is very misleading. First off the word is not received. . Secondly it was not the word of god that got delivered.. it was news from god .the verses is talking about the good news .

In English frankly the whole thing is so mixed and muddled up ., its no wonder you are so confused . worse still I have to deal on top of that with the bible according to duckbill.

Like I said before, I see VERY little regard for God's Word in your posts.

I don't know about Satan but I think you should stop following the bible as according to duckbill

Do you really think I wrote the verses I quoted? It is truly difficult to take you seriously!

what wisdom duckbill ? the wisdom to rule ? i just talked about tyranny didn't I ?

God offers mercy to all who surrender to Him. We will be judged by His Word. Better get used to it.

John 12:48 (NKJV)
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

 

[guava]

so there is going to be day and nite also in the next world.

hey ducknill i found this site that you might find useful . i can't post url because i have less than 60 posts .



here is an excerpt dealing with your "unquenchable "

The apparent meaning of "shall not be quenched" is: when the Lord pronounces a judgment of fire on something, that fire cannot be put out by man until it has burned everything up, leaving only ashes. Obviously, the fire at Jerusalem did go out (Jer.17:27; 52:12-13, 2 Chron.36:19-21) and Jerusalem was rebuilt seventy years later. What sinners will be unable to deliver themselves from (Isa.47:14) is the unquenchable, eternal, everlasting fire. The fire will continue to consume everything that is wicked until it is completely destroyed and turned to ashes.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of "eternal" fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for "everlasting" fire and "everlasting" punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice hell is "everlasting punishment", and not "everlasting punishing". The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration.
Also, in Matthew 25:41, the "everlasting fire" is prepared for the devil and his angles, and not prepared by the devil and his angels). The fire and brimstone destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and turned them into ashes (Gen.19:24). Sodom and Gomorrah was an example of what would happen to the wicked (Luke 17:29-30, 2 Peter 2:6, Jude 1:7). We know that God did not remove Sodom and Gomorrah to burn them somewhere else because Abraham could see the smoke going up "as the smoke of a furnace" (Genesis 19:28). The cities are not burning today because when everything was burned and turned into ashes, the fire, having no fuel left, went out. Another example of "everlasting destruction" (2 Thes.1:9) is; once a match is burned, it is destroyed forever, but is not being forever destroyed. The phrase "eternal torment" does not appear in the Bible.

Hanson wrote, "Many suppose that the words "unquenchable fire" mean a fire of endless duration, whereas, it is a fire that cannot be quenched until its purpose is accomplished. The meaning is, not that the fire was endless, but that it was not quenched,--it continued to burn--until all the material was destroyed. So the judgments of God on the Jews were effectually done -- the nation was completely devastated and destroyed. They were like chaff of the summer threshing floor in the consuming fire of God's judgment."

Josephus says, [Jewish War, B. ii, ch. xvii:6.] speaking of a fire that used to burn in the temple--though at the time he wrote [A.D.80] it had gone out, and the temple was destroyed--"Every one was accustomed to bring wood for the altar, that fuel might never be needed for the fire, for it continued always unquenchable."

Strabo, (A.D. 70) described the "unquenchable lamp" that used to burn in the Parthenon, though it has long since ceased to burn. [Lib. ix: p. 606.]

Plutarch, (A.D. 110) in Numa, [p. 262] speaks of places in Delphi and Athens, "where there is a fire unquenchable," (asbeston) though in the same breath he describes it as having ceased to burn.

Eusebius, [A.D 325, Eccl. Hist. Lib. vi, chap. 41] in his account of the martyrdom of Cronon and Julian, at Alexandria, says they were "consumed in unquenchable fire, asbesto puri," though it burned only long enough to destroy their bodies.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. ​

Where do they look for the unquenchable fire in the above verses? On earth or in "hell"? Very clearly it is on earth, and it occurred in 70 AD.

Furnace (of fire or smoke): is used in Genesis 19:28; Exodus 19:18; Psalm 21:9; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 13:42, 50; Revelation 9:2

How about this passage in Malachi?

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven (See Matthew 13:42); and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. (See Jude 12-13). Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet (John the Baptist) before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD (parousia of Christ):
Malachi 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth (land - destruction of Jerusalem) with a curse.

​

Clearly, this occurred in the first century when Jerusalem was destroyed. It is no where said that God has a furnace in eternity, in which to burn souls.

For ever and everlasting: Does "forever" always mean never ending? No. In the Bible, "for ever" is used where it has the meaning of lasting only as long as the duration of the event or as long as the man lives. Jonah calls "three days and three nights", "forever" (Jonah 1:17; 2:6). Hannah clearly explains what she means by the term "forever" when she says in verse 28, "as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord" (1 Sam. 1:22,28). Here "forever" is "ten generations" (Deut. 23:3). "Forever" obviously is as long as David lived (1 Chron. 28:4). Leprosy lasted for Gehazi as long as he lived (2 Kings 5:27). It’s apparent that the meaning of the word is determined by the context in which it is used (Exo. 21:5-6, Deut. 15:16-17, Philem. 1:10,11,15). Revelation 20:10 can agree with Ezekiel 28:18 by interpreting "for ever" as meaning "as long as they last in the fire or until the fire has burned them up completely." This is a good example of letting scripture interpret itself."




"
later

 

[Duckybill]

so there is going to be day and nite also in the next world.

hey ducknill i found this site that you might find useful . i can't post url because i have less than 60 posts .

here is an excerpt dealing with your "unquenchable "

The apparent meaning of "shall not be quenched" is: when the Lord pronounces a judgment of fire on something, that fire cannot be put out by man until it has burned everything up, leaving only ashes. Obviously, the fire at Jerusalem did go out (Jer.17:27; 52:12-13, 2 Chron.36:19-21) and Jerusalem was rebuilt seventy years later. What sinners will be unable to deliver themselves from (Isa.47:14) is the unquenchable, eternal, everlasting fire. The fire will continue to consume everything that is wicked until it is completely destroyed and turned to ashes.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of "eternal" fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for "everlasting" fire and "everlasting" punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice hell is "everlasting punishment", and not "everlasting punishing". The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration.
Also, in Matthew 25:41, the "everlasting fire" is prepared for the devil and his angles, and not prepared by the devil and his angels). The fire and brimstone destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and turned them into ashes (Gen.19:24). Sodom and Gomorrah was an example of what would happen to the wicked (Luke 17:29-30, 2 Peter 2:6, Jude 1:7). We know that God did not remove Sodom and Gomorrah to burn them somewhere else because Abraham could see the smoke going up "as the smoke of a furnace" (Genesis 19:28). The cities are not burning today because when everything was burned and turned into ashes, the fire, having no fuel left, went out. Another example of "everlasting destruction" (2 Thes.1:9) is; once a match is burned, it is destroyed forever, but is not being forever destroyed. The phrase "eternal torment" does not appear in the Bible.

Hanson wrote, "Many suppose that the words "unquenchable fire" mean a fire of endless duration, whereas, it is a fire that cannot be quenched until its purpose is accomplished. The meaning is, not that the fire was endless, but that it was not quenched,--it continued to burn--until all the material was destroyed. So the judgments of God on the Jews were effectually done -- the nation was completely devastated and destroyed. They were like chaff of the summer threshing floor in the consuming fire of God's judgment."

Josephus says, [Jewish War, B. ii, ch. xvii:6.] speaking of a fire that used to burn in the temple--though at the time he wrote [A.D.80] it had gone out, and the temple was destroyed--"Every one was accustomed to bring wood for the altar, that fuel might never be needed for the fire, for it continued always unquenchable."

Strabo, (A.D. 70) described the "unquenchable lamp" that used to burn in the Parthenon, though it has long since ceased to burn. [Lib. ix: p. 606.]

Plutarch, (A.D. 110) in Numa, [p. 262] speaks of places in Delphi and Athens, "where there is a fire unquenchable," (asbeston) though in the same breath he describes it as having ceased to burn.

Eusebius, [A.D 325, Eccl. Hist. Lib. vi, chap. 41] in his account of the martyrdom of Cronon and Julian, at Alexandria, says they were "consumed in unquenchable fire, asbesto puri," though it burned only long enough to destroy their bodies.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. ​

Where do they look for the unquenchable fire in the above verses? On earth or in "hell"? Very clearly it is on earth, and it occurred in 70 AD.

Furnace (of fire or smoke): is used in Genesis 19:28; Exodus 19:18; Psalm 21:9; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 13:42, 50; Revelation 9:2

How about this passage in Malachi? Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven (See Matthew 13:42); and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. (See Jude 12-13). Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet (John the Baptist) before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD (parousia of Christ):
Malachi 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth (land - destruction of Jerusalem) with a curse.

​

Clearly, this occurred in the first century when Jerusalem was destroyed. It is no where said that God has a furnace in eternity, in which to burn souls.

For ever and everlasting: Does "forever" always mean never ending? No. In the Bible, "for ever" is used where it has the meaning of lasting only as long as the duration of the event or as long as the man lives. Jonah calls "three days and three nights", "forever" (Jonah 1:17; 2:6). Hannah clearly explains what she means by the term "forever" when she says in verse 28, "as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord" (1 Sam. 1:22,28). Here "forever" is "ten generations" (Deut. 23:3). "Forever" obviously is as long as David lived (1 Chron. 28:4). Leprosy lasted for Gehazi as long as he lived (2 Kings 5:27). It’s apparent that the meaning of the word is determined by the context in which it is used (Exo. 21:5-6, Deut. 15:16-17, Philem. 1:10,11,15). Revelation 20:10 can agree with Ezekiel 28:18 by interpreting "for ever" as meaning "as long as they last in the fire or until the fire has burned them up completely." This is a good example of letting scripture interpret itself."
"
later

You can quote all those who do not believe in eternal punishment from now until Judgment Day. The Word of God will be the judge in the end.

Luke 16:22-26 (NKJV)
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

Hell is eternal. We cannot say we weren't warned.

 

[Duckybill]

Why am I getting the impression that this is meant for Jesus?

 

[guava]

No more verses for me duckbill? Just Jesus according to duckbill. ? Where are the verses ?

The KJV of the bible has to be read very carefully. it has many issues with it . One rabbi said he would rather be rent to pieces than endorse it . That goes to show you how serious those issues are
.
The concept of eternal punishment is pagan concept .. I think its about time that the churches remove that nonsense from the bible .



Colossians 1:19-20 "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven "

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself"

That last one is Jesus not according to duckbill it must be said .

reach out for him he will be there duckbill and you will get the blessing from above. he will open your eyes so you can see .when that day comes and you find yourself in the grave , in great confusion and in great despair don't look up to Abraham look up to Jesus . he will shine his light on you . he is the light and the truth. .. if you love the life you will get the blessing in Jesus name . he can do anything and you can use his power any day . he says you can do it in Jesus name .

 

[guava]

hey duckbill, where are you ? come back. i really enjoy talking to you. i want to tell you about this story . a cow was running trying to escape the people who wanted to slaughter it . it ran into the house of this holy man and she begged him to hide her .he told her to hide in his water jug . it was a small jug . the size of liter or thereabout . the people come and ask the holy man has he seen the cow . he points to the jug and tells them its hiding in there . the people look and they see the cow ears sticking out of the jug and they leave . how can a big cow hide in a small water jug they think ? . so they leave and the cow is saved .

 

[JudgeEden]

Why has this topic gone on for so long? It's clear she doesn't want to be with God. Her own prejudices and silly notions keep her from God.

"Babies are innocent"

They may start out that way, but the FACT is ALL are born sinful. I lied among other sinful things without it being taught to me when I was a child.

Religious Girl's problem is that she wont get over herself and her own selfish ego. Who made you God Religious Girl? Why do you feel you have all power in Heaven and Earth to criticize the Creator?

addo is a very knowledgeable person, everything he says tends to be spot on. He tried more than I would to get you to see reason. I must also point out that you stated many times that God sends people to Hell.

Well, I must let you know that there is no such thing. Not in the typical sense anyway. Hell is the very state of death, it is not torture. Dont let anyone convince you otherwise. There is simply no proof Biblically whatsoever of a physical place of torment. As a matter of fact, the scriptures contradict such a place.

The idea of eternal torture is a very old evil pagan idea brought into Christian circles and adopted. It needs to be abandoned.

 

[dana b]

The main thing that I struggle with is the acts in the Old Testament - the stoning, the murder etc. How could God have condoned that?

I do believe in Jesus and what he came to earth to do, and I know that with Him came the New Testament, but we can't ignore the OT. I find it difficult to accept and even explain to people why I would worship a God, who allowed, or even instructed for people to be killed. I guess Leviticus is a good example of what I mean.

'Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed' (Leviticus 20:9)

'If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die'. (Leviticus 20:10).

'Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community'. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

I know Jesus is good, but the OT confuses me. Why would the God who sent Jesus to save us, the good God who loves us, allow and instruct people to kill and murder others?

Hi there, My grandfather taught me something about this.

The Bible is written to three type of personalities.

1. Survival of the fittest personalities

2. Domesticated personalities

3. Conscious and Conscience following personalities

In the Holy Bible there are descriptons of all three types of people. This is necessary so that the Bible can appeal to and be understandable by all people.

When Adam and Eve stopped following God they instead began to follow the serpent. The Serpent is the originator of the survival of the fittest personality. He teaches you to do for yourself at the expense of others. So Adam and Eve followed him out of Eden and for 2000 years mankind lived in and with the world of nature. Every plant and animal and human being who live in nature struggles and fights for himself and family alone. This how nature has kept itself strong. In every case the plants or animals who are the strongest, trickyest and cleverest will fight and cheat the lesser. Therefore today the vegetation that exists is very vibrant. The animals that exist in the world today are the decedants of the animals that fought their way through life and survived and reproduced. This is natures law and way of always building up and keeping strong. Is it a bad thing?

When the tribes of Israel crossed the Jordan River and began to follow the law of justice as given by Moses they had entered a new and more advenced phase. Everyone in the promised land of Canaan had to fully follow the written law of justice. Punishments were inflicted rigourously in order to keep it this way. In a very short time people stopped breaking the laws and a time of peace and prosperity was experienced by this group of mankind like never before. Meanwhile the rest of humanity who were still on the other side of the Jordan River still were living in natures survival of the fittest system and therefore still lived dangerously. When they went to plow their gardens they had to keep watching thier backs and carry weapons even to the field. The Israelits who lived under the law did not. They could concentrate on their work more attentivly and thereby they progressed, lived peacfully and secure. This was God's first covenant with mankind.

God's second Covenant was brought by his own son Jesus Christ. Jesus taught us that now that we have experienced living under the law we were ready to experience the yet still highter law that was in our hearts and minds. This was prophesised in Jer.31;31 and then by Paul in Heb.8;10
Jesus taugh us of the "kingdom of heaven within ourselves" and not just the outward unflexable law that was written down by Moses. Paul tells us that the Law was given just for a time to be a school for us. But now for those of us that would we could enter the kingdom of heaven within. Jesus said that this kingdom was available immediatly when he arrived. "Behold, the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

When we follow the law in our hearts and minds than we are following our conscience. This word Consciene does not appear in the old Testament of the Bible because it is an advance onte the old law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. When you follow conscience then your consciousness will expand. Jesus explanind this in many parables.

Now, you ask, why does the Bible contain these seemingly unmercyfull laws and commands of punishing people. Is is because the Bible begins with the history and description of those living under natures urges. Then after Joredan it describes those who would develope a society where there is justice. And only after that could there ever be a chance for a society who live following justice with compassion and mercy added. We had to learn and experience all the rest first. The Bible is the story of all of this and therefore it seems cruel and harsh in the begginning. But today it ends in Jesus.

 

[guava]

Wise words by your grandfather. by the same token do his words apply to different personalities as well ?

lets start with Cain and Able. jesus talked to city people, a collection of peasants, craftsmen, fisher men, clergy, soldiers , ect . Cain was peasant it would seem. Able was a cattle herder .

The problem those rules in OT are useless . you can't use those rules to behead people. If a man cheats on his wife he must die. now I ,must die and every married man must die . Everybody cheated. . You know what I am talking about. Any man who curses his father and mother.? been there too and done it and so with everybody else .. Everybody who blasphemes god must be stoned.. How do you do that? God is not blaspheme friendly. .you only blaspheme your idea of god.


Jesus cleared that matter once and for all when he said let who has not committed sin caste the first stone.

These are not instruction to act. They are instruction not to act. So you must practice the art of not acting. This is a very difficult art. One of the hardest if not the hardest. It is the act not to act. sounds simple but it's not ..

 

[S.O.C]

You're wrong. The idea of every soul being immortal is a pagan belief and is contrary to what Yeshua tells us in Matthew 10:28 (NIV):

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Why would Yeshua tell us that Yahweh can DESTROY (bring to an end) BOTH body AND soul in hell if that is NOT what he intended to do? Is it that God CAN destroy both body and soul in hell...but chooses not to and then Yeshua simply tells us that God CAN to tease the nonbelievers? Is he saying to them..."God could destroy your soul in hell if he wanted to...but he doesn't want to...he'd rather see you tortured endlessly."??

Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of the fate that awaits the wicked. What happened in Sodom and Gomorrah? Total and complete destruction...nothing left.

You'll get this one day...whether in this life or in eternity...you'll see that our Father is love. He will never torture. Chaff is thrown into the fire where it is destroyed...nothing left.

CC

Nope!
Although it would be a nice thought to say hell does not exist or that its really not as bad as the Bible makes hell out to be, the truth is Hell is Fare worse for the unbeliever than human words can ever describe just as heavens description does not really do the believer justice either because its beyond anything any mortal has experienced.
In regards to your theory of hell, its error to try and take one passage of scriptures and hang all ideas and theology on a particular subject when it does not align with numerous other passages that contradict it in scripture. Sadly, this happens to often with many people that do not want to accept Gods word as it is in plain text or in other cases a persons interpretation is wrong. The feeling I'am getting from your responses would lead me to believe a little of both are going on.

Again, bodily death and spiritual death are not the same, technically there is no spiritual death, there is eternal separation from God which is considered spiritual death.

Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing to do with the reality of hell. It has to do with Gods justice and the reality of what God will do to those who refuse to obey his will and practice wickedness. Only there physical bodies were destroyed. The Bible does not ever say that a spirit is destroyed!

As for;

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

First, the body and spirit are not the same, just as the spirit and the SOUL are not the same. Do some research in the Bible.

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart"...Heb 4:12

In Hebrews it clearly states there is a difference between SOUL and SPIRIT!

No where does the Bible say the spirit will ever be destroyed. When you figure out what the difference is between the Soul and Spirit than the passage will should shed a different light. However, if one is bent on believing hell is not a real place or that it is not a tortuous place than all the evidence and plain reasoning will not make a bit of difference.

Secondly, just because God is able to do something it does not mean he will. We should never put God to the test of his word. The point made in the scriptural text could simply mean that God is all powerful and anything Satan does that puts fear into a person God is more powerful than Satan and his wrath should be more feared. If the writer of the text wanted to let the reader know that God will destroy than why not just say the One who WILL destroy, instead of using the word CAN?

"...Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

 

[.Iona.]

Why has this topic gone on for so long? It's clear she doesn't want to be with God. Her own prejudices and silly notions keep her from God.

Did you even read this thread?! I have said many times that I don't want to lose faith, but am struggling with some aspects of it.

I was being very honest in this thread about what I struggle with, if you find having questions and struggles as being 'prejudiced and silly', fine. But, there is no need to post here.

Religious Girl's problem is that she wont get over herself and her own selfish ego. Who made you God Religious Girl? Why do you feel you have all power in Heaven and Earth to criticize the Creator?

Yes, because clearly you know me so well. Can't handle people asking questions?

God is a big thing, and I have every right to ask questions and try and find reasons for what I don't understand.

Not everyone was born and raised a Christian. Not everyone will just go along with whatever they are told.

If you aren't going to be of any help - why post here?

addo is a very knowledgeable person, everything he says tends to be spot on. He tried more than I would to get you to see reason.

No one in this thread can get me to see reason. No matter what you say, it won't make me change my mind or make me see things in a completely different light.

I like to question and seek answers, not merely follow what someone has told me. If I don't understand something, I will ask about it. I will not worship God, when He will know in my heart I don't understand everything I am worshipping.

Fortunately, most people here have been very helpful.

I must also point out that you stated many times that God sends people to Hell.

And?

 

[.Iona.]

Again, just because some people seem to have ignored this part - I do not want to lose my faith altogether. I find some parts of the Bible difficult to understand and am trying (very hard actually) to make sense of it. Yes, I might come across as critical of Christianity but I am merely voicing my difficulties in hope of understanding them. It's not nice to begin to lose faith, and for me it isn't easy to just submit and believe/ agree with everything in the Bible. So, if you have nothing nice or helpful to say, please do not post here because it's hard enough without being criticised for having a wobble in my faith.

 

[ittarter]

Again, just because some people seem to have ignored this part - I do not want to lose my faith altogether. I find some parts of the Bible difficult to understand and am trying (very hard actually) to make sense of it. Yes, I might come across as critical of Christianity but I am merely voicing my difficulties in hope of understanding them. It's not nice to begin to lose faith, and for me it isn't easy to just submit and believe/ agree with everything in the Bible. So, if you have nothing nice or helpful to say, please do not post here because it's hard enough without being criticised for having a wobble in my faith.

We need more people like you on the forums, religious girl. There are a lot of rude and unkind folks that prowl the theology subforums looking for someone to argue with, and it's unfortunate when they pick your thread as the boxing ring.

I don't know if we've met before, but regardless, I wish you the best as you continue to seek to unravel one of the great Christian mysteries.

In a world where medical science is king, putting someone to death or exterminating an entire ethnic group (genocide) seems like the ultimate evil. However, to read the Bible is to go back to a time when the human life could be forfeited by committing any number of crimes or evils. Nowadays, we question the morality of the death penalty. This was not an issue in Jesus' day.

Actually, I think the New Testament is harsher than the Old Testament because it condemns evildoers to death in the NEXT life, not just this life. The ancient Israelites had a very vague idea of an afterlife but I'm guessing that even the possibility of one made killing someone not as big of a deal. Nowadays many, many people assume that this life is all they get, which makes death a far more serious and unparalleled event than the Old Testament.

Ask yourself which is more important -- that people do good, or that people live? If you agree with the first, your priorities are in line with those who wrote the biblical text. If you agree with the second, you're a child of your times, and it's understandable that it would be difficult to read a book that so blatantly contradicts some of your most basic instincts.

Hope this is helpful. Let me know if there's anything you want to discuss.

 

[chingchang]

Nope!
Although it would be a nice thought to say hell does not exist or that its really not as bad as the Bible makes hell out to be, the truth is Hell is Fare worse for the unbeliever than human words can ever describe just as heavens description does not really do the believer justice either because its beyond anything any mortal has experienced.
In regards to your theory of hell, its error to try and take one passage of scriptures and hang all ideas and theology on a particular subject when it does not align with numerous other passages that contradict it in scripture. Sadly, this happens to often with many people that do not want to accept Gods word as it is in plain text or in other cases a persons interpretation is wrong. The feeling I'am getting from your responses would lead me to believe a little of both are going on.

Again, bodily death and spiritual death are not the same, technically there is no spiritual death, there is eternal separation from God which is considered spiritual death.

Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing to do with the reality of hell. It has to do with Gods justice and the reality of what God will do to those who refuse to obey his will and practice wickedness. Only there physical bodies were destroyed. The Bible does not ever say that a spirit is destroyed!

As for;

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

First, the body and spirit are not the same, just as the spirit and the SOUL are not the same. Do some research in the Bible.

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart"...Heb 4:12

In Hebrews it clearly states there is a difference between SOUL and SPIRIT!

No where does the Bible say the spirit will ever be destroyed. When you figure out what the difference is between the Soul and Spirit than the passage will should shed a different light. However, if one is bent on believing hell is not a real place or that it is not a tortuous place than all the evidence and plain reasoning will not make a bit of difference.

Secondly, just because God is able to do something it does not mean he will. We should never put God to the test of his word. The point made in the scriptural text could simply mean that God is all powerful and anything Satan does that puts fear into a person God is more powerful than Satan and his wrath should be more feared. If the writer of the text wanted to let the reader know that God will destroy than why not just say the One who WILL destroy, instead of using the word CAN?

"...Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

What is the soul then if not the spirit? Can you find one example in the OT where God tortures people? If indeed that is what God is going to do in hell...then that is one aspect of his character not revealed to us via an OT example(s). In the OT...his wrath is carried out with utter and complete destruction. Besides...how can one reconcile a God who would torture conscious spirits for eternity with "God is love" (Apostle John)????? Answer: one can not reconcile the two...therefore either God tortures and is not love...or God is love and does not torture. You really should look into the history of this false doctrine you champion. It originated with man and was used to scare the pagans into converting by the Catholic Church (who then gladly collected their tithes).

CC

 

[solarwave]

Again, just because some people seem to have ignored this part - I do not want to lose my faith altogether. I find some parts of the Bible difficult to understand and am trying (very hard actually) to make sense of it. Yes, I might come across as critical of Christianity but I am merely voicing my difficulties in hope of understanding them. It's not nice to begin to lose faith, and for me it isn't easy to just submit and believe/ agree with everything in the Bible. So, if you have nothing nice or helpful to say, please do not post here because it's hard enough without being criticised for having a wobble in my faith.

Hi Religious Girl, I can empathise with what you are saying since I am also in a place of question the Christianity I was brought up in.

I'm sure someone can explain away the problems you find in the Bible, I used to do this, but in the end for me there were too many things that didn't make sense and so I now don't think the Bible is infallible, but that it is inspired in some way by God.

This means that some of the crazy stuff in the Old Testament is because the people who wrote it saw God through the lense of their culture. So in this way Christianity is a religion which develops.

So Christianity doesn't stand or fall due to some verses in the Bible being immoral.

I hope this help, and if it just makes things worse then please forget what I said.