The 'evil' in the Old Testament

[.Iona.]

God doesn't care about your personal goodness. It isn't good enough.

Exactly, it isn't good enough for Him. But, it's good enough for me. If He created me and doesn't like the way I am - then I'm not going to change. I might pray, read the Bible, go to church, but there are fundamental aspects of me that I can't change.

And, I've also said this before - I will not worship someone who things I am not good enough, and wants me to change.

 

[BereanTodd]

I've said before, I don't believe that people are born 'bad'. There are bad people out there, both Christian and otherwise, but you are not 'bad' for not believing in God.

Like I said earlier in this thread ... then you obviously do not have any children and have not been around them very much either. No one had to teach my 3 kids how to lie, how to steal, how to be selfish, how to be prideful, how to be envious, how to be greedy, how to get into fights with each other. They do those things all on their own, very naturally. Why? Because we are born sinful, just as the Bible tells us that we are.

 

[laconicstudent]

Exactly, it isn't good enough for Him. But, it's good enough for me. If He created me and doesn't like the way I am - then I'm not going to change. I might pray, read the Bible, go to church, but there are fundamental aspects of me that I can't change.

And, I've also said this before - I will not worship someone who things I am not good enough, and wants me to change.

Being in a relationship with someone who doesn't feel any urge to change and grow is rather boring.

You seem to lack an appreciation of the seriousness of the human condition, and the necessity that it be remedied through a relationship with God.


"The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; A broken and contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise."

--Psalm 51:17

 

[laconicstudent]

I've said before, I don't believe that people are born 'bad'.

Genesis 3 - Passage Lookup - English Standard Version - BibleGateway.com

"Adam had heard: ‘Earth thou art and to the earth shalt thou return,’ and from being incorruptible he became corruptible and was made subject to the bonds of death. But since he produced children after falling into this state, we his descendents are corruptible coming from a corruptible source. Thus it is that we are heirs of Adam’s curse."

--St. Cyril of Alexandria


"God the Son became Man in order to regather in Himself the ancient creation, so that He might slay sin and destroy the power of death, and give life to all men."

--St. Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, III, xix 6



I'm sorry, but you are wrong.

There are bad people out there, both Christian and otherwise, but you are not 'bad' for not believing in God.

Please explain to me how you can be "good", when you are separated from the source of every good thing. This is why a theology of salvation by works is incorrect.

 

[laconicstudent]

Well, of course - trust is a big thing when it comes to faith. But, I can't seem to place trust in someone who would as soon kill me as He would let me into Heaven.

He wouldn't "as soon kill you". It grieves God immeasurably to be rejected, and happy when he is accepted. I'm not sure why you are pretending like God crows with delight to see his beloved people in torment.

Because, that is what it comes down to. I could lead a holy, religious, almost perfect life - then one day (the day that I might just die) I sin, I go against His word and don't repent and that's it - it was all for nothing.

You could.

Right now, it seems too hot and miss. I feel that I will have to go against everything I believe in and everything I am, for him to love me - despite not being an evil person how I am. And, even if I am saved and in Heaven, I will know that millions of other good people are in Hell - and I couldn't live with that.

Well, you are going to have to, one way or another. You simply are given a choice as to whether you will "live with that" in a relationship with the God of the universe who loves you, in heaven, or separated from him in agony.

Either way, you are going to deal with it.

I won't just give up on God, but I really need to continue thinking about this. But, I can't see how I will accept a lot of the things in the Bible.

Such as?

 

[laconicstudent]

I know everything you guys are saying, but what I can't accept is why God has to show this love with death. Noah's Ark, for example - He didn't need to do that.

Oh? Why not?

Please bear in mind that God created you before you start calling Him an idiot. Do you understand how to create a self-driven biochemical system?

Adam and Eve - yes they broke their promise and did what they said they wouldn't - but why take that out on every single person yet to be born into the world?

The natural consequences of their actions. Not God's fault.

Make people suffer for something that they didn't start?

God isn't "making" anyone suffer anything. If you are upset that we are paying for our ancestors' terminally stupid decision, welcome to the world. It isn't fair.

There are other ways, why death?

I'm glad we have you here, as you apparently know better then God. Please share.

 

[laconicstudent]

There is no logic in saying that a baby is born a sinner. He has done nothing except breathe - there is no sinning there. People are born innately good.

Scripture please! Or do you have any quotes from the Church Fathers? Anything?

I also don't want know anyone who wants to change me.

That's pretty sad, actually. Even if God didn't exist, that is just sad in terms of interpersonal relationships.

I don't kill, or lie, or hurt people, so there is nothing that needs changing. Why would anyone want to be around someone who is trying to change them?!

So let me get this straight: you are claiming to be perfect and without sins.

Do you ever lust?
Do you ever lie?
Do you ever mock?
Do you ever break the law in any fashion?
Do you ever take the Lord's name in vain?
Do you ever disrespect your parents?
Do you ever feel envy?
Do you pass the beggar by?
Have you given all you own to the poor, and followed Christ?
Do you love your neighbor as yourself?
Do you turn the other cheek?
Do you ever cheat in academics?

I am good, yes. I never said we are all sinners - you did. I said I'm about to give up Christianity because of most of the messages in the Bible.

Judging from the fact that you don't affirm we are all sinners, I question how much of the Bible you have read.

If God created people because he loves us, it is petty to then kill them because they didn't listen to his every word.

He doesn't kill us, he gives us a choice. It isn't his fault that some essentially commit suicide.

Life is not something to play with.

How dare you tell the infinite God what he can and cannot play with?

Why should God kill people? You say it as though killing is no big deal - it is.

Why? You seem to have an untoward fixation on death.

He loves us, yet because we not follow one of his rules, that's it - you burn in hell for eternity? It isn't just killing is it, it's torturing people. Where is the love?

The love is in that even though we are depraved and deserve eternal torture, he still gave us a way out.

Jeez, entitlement much? All he did was die for us, right? He's such a meanie for not doing more.

Buy killing the sinner.

Yeah? Our courts already do that? You expect the perfect God to be less just?

Like I said I don't lie or kill. So I can't trust in a God who himself kills.

I wonder how many flies you've killed in the past few years. I bet your hands are as drenched with blood as the rest of us, on average.

Of course there is when you put it in terms of God and the Bible. I could warn someone that a car is coming towards them - out of love and kindness - I am doing something to help that person.

God did do something. Ever hear of this event?

​

Yet, God would be driving the car and saying move or I'll hit you. He's warning, but is also doing the act that will hurt the person.

I'm not seeing the issue here.

Is the moderator going to kill you if you continued to use bad language?

God isn't going to kill you either.

There is a difference. A lot of what the Bible says you cannot do is not evil or wicked. If he loves us so much, he should accept who we are, providing we don't kill etc.

Stop projecting onto God. You seem to have a rather warped sense of love, frankly.

He could change things if he wants,

​

but he doesn't he would prefer to carry on killing.

When does God kill people?

Yes, right now I do. I didn't see it that way before. But, essentially it is saying 'do this, or die'.

So?

He killed his own son,

Actually, that was the Romans.

so of course he won't have any problems in killing us.

Have you ever actually read the Bible?

He could not throw people in a fiery hell. He could not show his message of love - with death and pain.

God doesn't enjoy condemning people to hell, you know.

If he loved us, he wouldn't kill us.

Again, stop projecting onto God.

Killing someone is not love.

1. Hell isn't "killing"
2. God doesn't want to
3. God has endured a great deal of agony to give you a way out

You can't create a child, then kill him out of love - if you love them you accept them, guide them, and show your love through a good means. Not order them to follow rules, threaten them with death if they disobey them and say 'I did warn you'.

How old are you?

 

[Yarddog]

I know Jesus is good, but the OT confuses me. Why would the God who sent Jesus to save us, the good God who loves us, allow and instruct people to kill and murder others?

I understand, it used to confuse me as well. I couldn't read certain books because they just didn't fit in with the NT. The God started opening up my eyes.

God never wanted to instill a set of laws but man just couldn't get it. God intended for man to live in faith, guided by his Spirit, as Abraham did. He didn't have a set of laws to go by.

Sadly, man could never embrace that understanding and chose to have a set of laws to be judged by, which the OT points to. People who reject faith as their principle, choose to be judged by their actions and when they fail, they deserve death.

God gave us a choice through the NT. Jesus atoned for the sin of rejecting faith, which Adam and Eve's sin is a symbol. They choose(ate the fruit of) the Tree of Knowledge of what is good and evil(being judge by the Law) over living by faith(Eden). In Eden, they could eat from the Tree of Life(Jesus) and live forever.

So, even though the OT may appear to be dark in many places, it really helps us to understand judgment by our works(OT) vs judgment by faith(NT).

 

[addo]

@laconicstudent: good series of posts!

God bless you.

 

[.Iona.]

@laconicstudent: good series of posts!

God bless you.

Really?! Most of the post came across as patronising and slightly aggressive in tone.

 

[laconicstudent]

Really?! Most of the post came across as patronising and slightly aggressive in tone.

Sorry, but you did just spend a great deal of this thread demeaning my God, and belittling the Incarnation and Crucifixion.

 

[.Iona.]

Sorry, but you did just spend a great deal of this thread demeaning my God, and belittling the Incarnation and Crucifixion.

I started this thread to understand better and not lose my faith completely. Saying that I don't get why God will send someone to burn in Hell - is the truth, I don't get it. Would you rather I lie, or not question anything and follow faith blindly even though I don't understand some parts of it - or even give up altogether?

I ask questions and am trying to find answers to help me understand it, so I will explain my difficulties and why I don't agree. If you don't like it, don't read it. Faith doesn't come easily for everyone, and some people have questions. I have questions, and I don't understand the answers I have been given through life, so I will continue to ask questions until I see the reasons. As far as the crucifixion goes, I think it is a valid question - why would an all powerful God show His love through the death of is only son?

If you find it demeaning, turn the other cheek, respond with kindness - isn't this what you are supposed to do?

 

[addo]

- why would an all powerful God show His love through the death of is only son?

Because in love there is sacrifice. We can see this by just observing. Parents sacrifice themselves for their children. People sacrifice themselves and precious things (time, reputation, money, etc.) for their friends. And other examples could be given. So what greater example of sacrificing (as I have given the definition before: to give something valuable to you to help someone else) could have God given other than sacrificing His beloved Son for us?

 

[.Iona.]

Because in love there is sacrifice. We can see this by just observing. Parents sacrifice themselves for their children. People sacrifice themselves and precious things (time, reputation, money, etc.) for their friends. And other examples could be given. So what greater example of sacrificing (as I have given the definition before: to give something valuable to you to help someone else) could have God given other than sacrificing His beloved Son for us?

If God is the almighty and all powerful, couldn't He have done anything else?
Sacrificing time and money is different to sacrificing a life. I really can't see how that would make me love someone - although I see the principle behind it, it takes a lot of something to do that. But, if someone is willing to do that ones, then they are willing to do it again.

Would I sacrifice my child to show my love for someone else - no.

 

[Merlin]

Exactly, it isn't good enough for Him. But, it's good enough for me. If He created me and doesn't like the way I am - then I'm not going to change.

He likes how He created you, but He gave you the freedom to behave ugly.

I might pray, read the Bible, go to church, but there are fundamental aspects of me that I can't change.

but He can.
He doesn't ask you to change, but just be humble enough to ask for His help.

And, I've also said this before - I will not worship someone who things I am not good enough, and wants me to change.

lots of ego/pride there.

 

[laconicstudent]

I started this thread to understand better and not lose my faith completely. Saying that I don't get why God will send someone to burn in Hell - is the truth, I don't get it. Would you rather I lie, or not question anything and follow faith blindly even though I don't understand some parts of it - or even give up altogether?

No.

I ask questions and am trying to find answers to help me understand it, so I will explain my difficulties and why I don't agree. If you don't like it, don't read it.

And people will, perhaps heatedly, point out where you are going wrong.

Faith doesn't come easily for everyone, and some people have questions. I have questions, and I don't understand the answers I have been given through life, so I will continue to ask questions until I see the reasons. As far as the crucifixion goes, I think it is a valid question - why would an all powerful God show His love through the death of is only son?

The idea of someone dying to save those they love is hardly a new concept.

http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/naruto/027/Naruto27-12.jpg

If you find it demeaning, turn the other cheek, respond with kindness - isn't this what you are supposed to do?

I thought I was more or less controlled. I will try and be more clinically detached for you, though.

 

[laconicstudent]

If God is the almighty and all powerful, couldn't He have done anything else?

Such as what?

Sacrificing time and money is different to sacrificing a life.

So, you would prefer that we were still under the Old Covenant and had to regularly ritually slaughter various animals to purify ourselves?

I really can't see how that would make me love someone - although I see the principle behind it, it takes a lot of something to do that.

Strange, I think most people, if they saw another person through themselves forward to take a bullet for them, would be profoundly effected.

But, if someone is willing to do that ones, then they are willing to do it again.

I hope Jesus would be willing to sacrifice himself again.

Would I sacrifice my child to show my love for someone else - no.

You do realize that the Son of God is God, right? Your analogy fails, because your relationship with your child pales in comparison to that of the Trinity, in which the Father and Son are consubstantial.

 

[laconicstudent]

Oh, and I like this catechism.

Catechism of The Eastern Orthodox Church

Q. What is our religion called?

A. The Christian Religion.

Q. Why is it called the Christian religion?

A. Because Christ gave it to the world.

Q. State its teachings briefly.

A. God made the world and created one pair of human beings upon the earth. Our first parents were fashioned good, but they disobeyed God, and through the sin of disobedience their mind was darkened and they lost God. Their heart became evil. From thence they fell into all wickedness and into death. Their descendants suffered likewise. But God through His love to His creatures sent His Son Jesus Christ, who became Man, taught concerning the true God and what His will is, founded His Church, that it might continue His work, was crucified that He might propitiate divine righteousness, which had been insulted by the sin of our First Parents, and reconcile men with God, and was buried. But after three days He arose; forty days after the Resurrection He was received into Heaven and fifty days after the Resurrection He sent the Holy Spirit that He might guide His Church into all truth. From thenceforth all who desired to be saved from sin and be happy both in this life and in that to come MUST believe in Christ, receive Divine Grace through the Sacraments and conform to His teachings, especially to that concerning love.

 

[S.O.C]

Well, of course - trust is a big thing when it comes to faith. But, I can't seem to place trust in someone who would as soon kill me as He would let me into Heaven. Because, that is what it comes down to. I could lead a holy, religious, almost perfect life - then one day (the day that I might just die) I sin, I go against His word and don't repent and that's it - it was all for nothing.

Right now, it seems too hot and miss. I feel that I will have to go against everything I believe in and everything I am, for him to love me - despite not being an evil person how I am. And, even if I am saved and in Heaven, I will know that millions of other good people are in Hell - and I couldn't live with that.

I won't just give up on God, but I really need to continue thinking about this. But, I can't see how I will accept a lot of the things in the Bible.

You keep using words like good, holy, righteous, etc.. to describe yourself or what you think you can do but no one is good save God alone. You may think your good by human standards but the only way to stand blameless and Holy before a Righteous all powerful Holy, Just God is through the atonement of Jesus who is the only person who walked on this earth blameless and sinless before God. If any other person in all the history of creation was sinless, good, or holy than Jesus would not be the only way. Remember God sent his only son to die for mankind but God did not force Jesus to do anything. It is through the love that Jesus displays that brings honor and glory to God. If God did not punish sin than he himself would not be righteous , holy, and Just.

 

[laconicstudent]

Some salient points

Q. Does God sin?

A. No. He is All-holy.

Q. Can God do evil?

A. No. He is All-good. Because evil is the opposite of good; being the embodiment of sin, God cannot do evil, by definition. God is All-holy and All-good.

Q. Can God do injustice?

A. No. He is All-just.

Q. Does God ever change?

A. No. He is Unchangeable.

Q. Can God die?

A. No. He is immortal.