The 'evil' in the Old Testament

[addo]

You cannot be born a sinner, you are born a little innocent baby who knows nothing and has done nothing.

Why can't you? You are born a sinner. A tree isn't a tree because of the fruit it gives but it gives that fruit because it is that kind of tree. If we are born righteous, why must we be born again?

Saying you are a sinner is another way of scaring people isn't it?

If the truth scares you ... then yes. Or isn't it true that we were all sinners (until we were born again of God)?

He made us who we are right? So He made us evil?

Because of the sin of Adam we are all sinners by nature. God doesn't create us sinners. We get our 'nature' from our parents.

I don't want to be around anyone who thinks I am bad.

Why not? Didn't I say that God actually wants to change you and provided the means to do that?

By the way: is it that you are not bad? Are you good then?

That's another reason I think I'll ahve to give up on Christianity.

You'll give up Christianity because we are all sinners? Strange motive you got there.

Are you serious? Killing is never good.

Why not?

And you haven't answered: life is His and He gave it to us; since it is His doesn't He have the right to take it back?

There is no justification for killing someone.

Why not? You made a statement: support it. Why is killing bad?

If God created us, He knew how we would turn out - so He can't then kill people off - because He knew already what they would be like.

But He provided the means to abandon 'who we are' and become like He wants us to be; He provided the way to abandon our works and to do His. In this case, is there justification for them since they could stop being sinners and become righteous but they chose wickedness?

He killed His own son to show his love. Not a great example.

Clearly you do not have children. Could there be a greater example of love than sacrificing His only Son for us?

He could not kill people. There are ways of sharing the message and their are ways of showing your love.

Why not? Why cannot God kill people? Are you saying He doesn't have the right to kill us? It says:

The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

(Psalms 110:5-7)
​

Why cannot God kill people? Why mustn't He kill people? Why is it unjust for God to kill people? Isn't it true that we all deserve death?

So why is He killing us if he really doesn't want it?

Because they are wicked, sinful. Sin is something which He hates and which He will exterminate.

If He didn't want to kill, then He wouldn't.

But He does want to exterminate sin.

I created my child. If I then tell him, 'do this or I will kill you' - that isn't loving.

But yet you created this child of yours as a beautiful child, you gave him tons of riches and really just no reason to disobey you at all. But yet he disobeys. God created Adam and gave him everything he could see except for a small tree. Tell me: is there something Adam didn't have? Is there a justification for what Adam did?

Also, doesn't He have all the right? It is His plan after all. He created us for a reason. Doesn't it stand to reason that if we don't work according to our purpose, we are just a stumbling block in His plan? We are His creation. He created us for a purpose, we must do something. If we don't do it, isn't it reasonable that we are really useless?

Warning someone to look before crossing a road, is loving, but creating someone and then saying if you don't do all that I say I'll throw you in a fiery hell for all for eternity - isn't.

Tell me: is there any reason for not doing what God says? Is it that He tells you to do something bad? No, all He says is for our good. Is it that we cannot do what He says? No, He also provided the means. Then tell me: why would you disobey?

People do.

You didn't answer. Why?

A threat is always bad.

First, what do you think: is there a difference between making a threat and warning?

I received a warning from a Moderator on this forum for using bad language. Is the Moderator evil and bad for warning me? Does he hate me for warning me? Isn't he actually here to take care of me? He warned me because there are rules and he doesn't want me to get banned. If I persist in breaking the rules I'll be permanently banned from this forum. I like being here but for that I must obey this forum's rules.

God warns us. If we continue in our wickedness, in our disobedience, we will get "banned" or punished. Why? Does God hate us? Is this why He punishes? Does the mod hate me because he warns or bans me? Or is it my fault that I get banned?

Like I said, you can advise people to change your ways without threatening them.

Can you do that without telling them the danger they are in if they persist in their ways?

God made us known the dangers of our ways. He wants us to change our ways.

When a mod sees someone breaking the rules he warns them. Why? In hope they'll stop breaking the rules. So it with God. He warns us of the danger we are in. Why? Because He hopes that if we realize the trouble we are in we will repent and stop doing it.

That means that they will 'love' you out fear and not out of respect. If God is all mighty and all powerfll, and even all loving - then he should be able to find a way for people to love him as he is and not scare people into loving him.

So you think we Christians just worship God out of fear, trembling and terror? Then what a twisted image of Christianity you got there!

God looks at humanity. He sees it's ways lead to death. He sent His prophets and His Son to warn them that if they persist in their ways they will finally die. He provided them the means to abandon their ways. Now He tells them: abandon your ways for they lead to death; choose this way and live.

This is really loving. If He wouldn't love us, why warn us at all? Why not end all this already? But yet He loves us and took time and patience to warn us. I don't see how you see this as a message of hate of His part.

 

[addo]

Also, you haven't answered: how old are you?

 

[.Iona.]

Why can't you? You are born a sinner. A tree isn't a tree because of the fruit it gives but it gives that fruit because it is that kind of tree. If we are born righteous, why must we be born again?

If the truth scares you ... then yes. Or isn't it true that we were all sinners (until we were born again of God)?

Because of the sin of Adam we are all sinners by nature. God doesn't create us sinners. We get our 'nature' from our parents.

There is no logic in saying that a baby is born a sinner. He has done nothing except breathe - there is no sinning there. People are born innately good.

Why not? Didn't I say that God actually wants to change you and provided the means to do that?

I also don't want know anyone who wants to change me. I don't kill, or lie, or hurt people, so there is nothing that needs changing. Why would anyone want to be around someone who is trying to change them?!

By the way: is it that you are not bad? Are you good then?
You'll give up Christianity because we are all sinners? Strange motive you got there.

I am good, yes. I never said we are all sinners - you did. I said I'm about to give up Christianity because of most of the messages in the Bible.

And you haven't answered: life is His and He gave it to us; since it is His doesn't He have the right to take it back?

If God created people because he loves us, it is petty to then kill them because they didn't listen to his every word. Life is not something to play with.

Why not? You made a statement: support it. Why is killing bad?

How on earth could killing be good?! To take someone's life away, if evil and cruel. The Bible says Thou shalt not kill right?

Clearly you do not have children. Could there be a greater example of love than sacrificing His only Son for us?

I could never kill my child. I would rather die myself than kill my child.

Why not? Why cannot God kill people? Are you saying He doesn't have the right to kill us? Why cannot God kill people? Why mustn't He kill people? Why is it unjust for God to kill people? Isn't it true that we all deserve death?Because they are wicked, sinful. Sin is something which He hates and which He will exterminate.

Why should God kill people? You say it as though killing is no big deal - it is.

He loves us, yet because we not follow one of his rules, that's it - you burn in hell for eternity? It isn't just killing is it, it's torturing people. Where is the love?

But He does want to exterminate sin.

Buy killing the sinner.

All of that - God hates the sin not the sinner, isn't true then is it?!

Tell me: is there any reason for not doing what God says? Is it that He tells you to do something bad? No, all He says is for our good. Is it that we cannot do what He says? No, He also provided the means. Then tell me: why would you disobey?

Morals.

Like I said I don't lie or kill. So I can't trust in a God who himself kills.

First, what do you think: is there a difference between making a threat and warning?

Of course there is when you put it in terms of God and the Bible. I could warn someone that a car is coming towards them - out of love and kindness - I am doing something to help that person.[/QUOTE]

Yet, God would be driving the car and saying move or I'll hit you. He's warning, but is also doing the act that will hurt the person.

I received a warning from a Moderator on this forum for using bad language. Is the Moderator evil and bad for warning me? Does he hate me for warning me? Isn't he actually here to take care of me? He warned me because there are rules and he doesn't want me to get banned. If I persist in breaking the rules I'll be permanently banned from this forum. I like being here but for that I must obey this forum's rules.

Is the moderator going to kill you if you continued to use bad language?

God warns us. If we continue in our wickedness, in our disobedience, we will get "banned" or punished. Why? Does God hate us? Is this why He punishes? Does the mod hate me because he warns or bans me? Or is it my fault that I get banned?

There is a difference. A lot of what the Bible says you cannot do is not evil or wicked. If he loves us so much, he should accept who we are, providing we don't kill etc.

He could change things if he wants, but he doesn't he would prefer to carry on killing.

So you think we Christians just worship God out of fear, trembling and terror? Then what a twisted image of Christianity you got there!

Yes, right now I do. I didn't see it that way before. But, essentially it is saying 'do this, or die'. He killed his own son, so of course he won't have any problems in killing us.

This is really loving. If He wouldn't love us, why warn us at all? Why not end all this already? But yet He loves us and took time and patience to warn us. I don't see how you see this as a message of hate of His part.

He could not throw people in a fiery hell. He could not show his message of love - with death and pain.

If he loved us, he wouldn't kill us. Killing someone is not love.

You can't create a child, then kill him out of love - if you love them you accept them, guide them, and show your love through a good means. Not order them to follow rules, threaten them with death if they disobey them and say 'I did warn you'.

 

[wannabeadesigirl]

Religious girl,
Heavens to betsy I feel your pain. I was about 17 years old when I went through the "Loving God my..." phase, and it hurt.

I had a priest when I was going through this extremely difficult phase who God put into my life just at the right time. Otherwise I would've gone off the deep end for sure.
Of the many things Fr. C told me the one thing he said to me about God was

"There is no New Testament God, and there is no Old Testament God. There is God." When I looked at him he said 'You say the Old Testament God is harsh, unloving and cruel, but if you look at Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, or even Noah in the ark you'll find incredible mercy there.

"If you think about it God could've wiped us off the map, but he didn't. He wanted us to continue in order to find him, in order to come closer to him" In other words there is extraordinary mercy in the Old Testament. For example God is constantly rescuing the doubting children of Israel, and at multiple points saves people from the nations Israel was taking over in the Pentateuch. The story of Nebukadnezzer and Darius are great examples of this.
God made Nebu bonkers, then brought him back. Presumably Nebu stopped ticking God off. Darius was saved through the witness of Daniel after his night in the lions den. God could've just zapped those two heathens off the planet, but he didn't.

Fact is, the God you see commanding the death of adulterers, and errant oxen is the same God who sent his Son to die on the cross for adulterers (and by that logic errant oxen, but you get what I mean).

The fact that God found it nessecary to send his son to die on the cross when he could've just found atonement in the same old fashion (stoning sinners and cows) indicates to me that he thought the old fashion was broken. After all if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Obviously the old system was broken, so God fixed it by sending his Son at the appropriate time.

As far as changing you is concerned have you ever seen tarnished or drossy silver? It doesn't sparkle, or shine. It's good, definitely, and you know it'll look great with that prom dress you have, but since it's tarnished it'll do you no good. It needs to be shiny to work best. Thus the silver is scrubbed with lemon juice and salt, vinegar and water with some good ol' elbow grease until it shines like the way it was supposed to.

You're suppose to shine like silver (like gold actually). Sin is the tarnish keeping you from shining. Christ has provided the way for you to take hold of the beauty he created you for. He isn't changing your nature (silver) he is rubbing away anything that keeps you from being beautiful. It's not a negative change, and ultimately you (and whatever god has in Mind for you) will be better off.

I hope that helped. Please keep seeking the truth, cause you'll find it.

 

[S.O.C]

Yes, the time was different and stoning does still happen in some countries. I know that. But, how can you put faith in God when He has said you should be killed for the things you may have done? That's what I find difficult.

I'm not trying to cause a debate, I just want to try and get my faith back to where it was, but this is one thing that is stopping it.

I want to trust in God, but always feel that He would say that I should be killed for my sins. Did He send Jesus to stop that killing, or should that still be part of it?

Here are my thoughts...

In the Old Testament the people did not have the Holy Spirit to convict them of their Sins that is why they needed profits and men of God to constantly remind them of their evil ways, that is why they routinely had animal sacrifices to account for their Sins. There are rare occasions when God would send the Holy Spirit for one reason or another to fulfill his purpose through specific individuals but it was not very common. Remember that God's tabernacle was with these people in close proximity and that means that the holiness of God was with them. The stoning, putting to death for sins, and other things that we find hard to comprehend was a spiritual cleansing among his children. Maybe from Gods point of view, consider this...If you had one rebellious child among many that was doing wicked things and causing your other children to do the same would you not separate that one who is bad from the ones that are good? Think about how much influence one person can have on a group. Just as the Bible tells us that God is Righteous and Holy and that no Sin or Evil will be allowed in Heaven or in his Holy Presence, so to was it necessary for the purity and cleansing of his people in order for God to reside in the land with his people. If we as Christians claim to be his chosen children, in the likeness of Christ and follow evil practices than does that not bring dishonor to Gods name? I hope this helps because it’s a very good question to ask and very important to have a the right answer... S.O.C

 

[Phinehas2]

ReligiousGirl,

The main thing that I struggle with is the acts in the Old Testament - the stoning, the murder etc. How could God have condoned that?

God doesn’t though, throughout the Bible He makes a way to salvation, I think your issue is with the fall in the garden of Eden where humans chose, against God’s wishes, the knowledge of good and evil, and have denied the responsibility and blamed God ever since.

I do believe in Jesus and what he came to earth to do, and I know that with Him came the New Testament, but we can't ignore the OT. I find it difficult to accept and even explain to people why I would worship a God, who allowed, or even instructed for people to be killed. I guess Leviticus is a good example of what I mean.

But I would question whether you do really understand what Jesus came to do because Jesus affirms the scriptures which you find evil.

'Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed' (Leviticus 20:9)

But remember they are already dead to eternal life except for God’s covenant with them, God said do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or you will surely die.

, allow and instruct people to kill and murder others?

In the OT God was revealing Himself and His life through His people, life and death, blessing and curse were set before them in an environment where others gods used military violence to subdue others and their gods.

Sadly as Christians we still struggle at times to remember the real battle isnt against flesh and blood but against the same spiritual dark forces of the world that have resulted from the knowledge of evil that seek to deny God.

 

[.Iona.]

I know everything you guys are saying, but what I can't accept is why God has to show this love with death. Noah's Ark, for example - He didn't need to do that. Adam and Eve - yes they broke their promise and did what they said they wouldn't - but why take that out on every single person yet to be born into the world? Make people suffer for something that they didn't start?

There are other ways, why death?

 

[Phinehas2]

Religiousgirl,
Hope you didnt think I was too smug in my previous reply, this is well worth discussing.

- but why take that out on every single person yet to be born into the world?

Yes I thought about that for sometime but my thoughts are that one cannot have light without there being dark, one cannot have life without their being death, light and life miust come from darkness and no life. God is about rescuing to life with Him, the death is just there as default. but I think its a difficult concept and one of those things we cant yet grasp.

 

[BereanTodd]

There is no logic in saying that a baby is born a sinner. He has done nothing except breathe - there is no sinning there. People are born innately good.

Really? And who teaches them to lie? Who teaches them to be selfish? Because those things and oh so many more come very naturally to children. You know why? Because we are born sinners. That is not only the very clear and consistent teaching of Scripture, it is also the very real experience of reality.

How on earth could killing be good?! To take someone's life away, if evil and cruel. The Bible says Thou shalt not kill right?

The Bible says 'thou shalt not murder'. There is a difference.

He loves us, yet because we not follow one of his rules, that's it - you burn in hell for eternity? It isn't just killing is it, it's torturing people. Where is the love?

We continually, daily, all the time sin, do wrong things, hurt other people, act selfishly, lustfully, greedily. We are unrighteous, fallen people. None of us have any reason to stand before God and feel right in and of ourselves. We have ALL sinned, broken God's law, and continually spit in his eye.

The wonder is not why does He send some to hell, the wonder is why does He love us so much that He suffered, was tortured and died for us, to make a way so that we could come to heaven? Why go through so much hurt, sorrow and pain for a people who are so unfaithful to Him?

Maybe because He loves us so much that we can never comprehend it ...

 

[Phinehas2]

I think its easily arguable that people are not born innately bad, certainly thats the word of God, all now in Adam die and in Christ all may be made alive.

He loves us, yet because we not follow one of his rules, that's it - you burn in hell for eternity? It isn't just killing is it, it's torturing people. Where is the love?

Well if one is already dead then one will be grateful for salvation, but if one doesnt consider themselves in need of salvation then I dont see why they should be bothered about rules to follow, no harm can be done.

 

[S.O.C]

I know everything you guys are saying, but what I can't accept is why God has to show this love with death. Noah's Ark, for example - He didn't need to do that. Adam and Eve - yes they broke their promise and did what they said they wouldn't - but why take that out on every single person yet to be born into the world? Make people suffer for something that they didn't start?

There are other ways, why death?

When God destroyed the earth in the flood he tells that before the flood people lived to be 700-800 years old, but before the flood the

"sons of God (referring to Angles in heaven) came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY"... GEN 6:2 - 6:6.

These men of renown were abominations to God, and they were men of OLD, So if man could live 500-700 years than how long did these men of OLD (abominations) live? After awhile the earth was probably full of them if the lived longer than a normal man. But remember God in his mercy and love did not wipe out man but restored him to his original state through Noah and his family by the flood. Also I think it's worthy to note that when God gave the Laws that seem harsh or extreme to us, keep in mind that a child was not stoned for simple things like not taking out the garbage or forgetting to do chores. What parent wants to see their child die, it was more than likely for the extreme cases of disobedience, religious and spiritual matters. Ask yourself what is God more concerned with your physical health or your eternal sole? I recall reading in the Bible (OT) that when sons or daughters disobeyed, the parents didn't simple take their children to the street and start throwing stones, there was a process (like a trial) where first the father and the mother would confront the child, if the child would not listen then they would take him to the priest, if he still was unwilling then they would take him before the elders an so on... my point is, it was not an impulsive action to uphold the laws of God and carry out the punishment that a person was aware would be carried out as a consequence of their sin. To hold someone to the their own consequence of sin, first it was made clear of their position of disobedience. Another thing is in Gods creation (heaven and earth) there is an order to things. Jesus is obedient to God, man is to be obedient to Jesus, sons are to be obedient to their fathers and so on it goes. Everything God did in the OT was a sign of what was and is to come, nothing was by accident, if a son disobeyed his father (who was the patriarch of the family) than he disobeys what God has apppointed over him, and in reality he disobeys the higher authority of God. Marriage is a covenant between a man and woman (one flesh) and God. To break a covenant with God was punishment of death, Hebrews knew this all to well. As I mentioned before every ritual, law, and appearance that God decreed had some type of spiritual significance that served as a sign post or marker for the time when the long awaited messiah would come. The Bible(NT) makes that association as Jesus the bride-groom and the church his bride, intimate relationship between God and his people. An unfaithful spouse showed that one was unfaithful to the relationship of God and his covenant.

 

[addo]

There is no logic in saying that a baby is born a sinner. He has done nothing except breathe - there is no sinning there.

An apple tree doesn't become an apple tree when it brings forth apples. But it brings forth apples because it is an apple tree. We are all born sinners. It is logical, as I said, considering the analogy of the tree.

People are born innately good.

Then who teaches people to lie, steal, cheat, etc., as another person said on this thread?

I also don't want know anyone who wants to change me. I don't kill, or lie, or hurt people, so there is nothing that needs changing. Why would anyone want to be around someone who is trying to change them?!

Because you are in great danger if you don't. The way you are on now leads to death. The things you do lead to death.

Let's make another allegory. There is a woman who smokes 50 cigars a day, or more. A loving man wants to change her because if she continues in her habit, it will bring forth death. This man wants to change her because the way she is now is going to lead her to death.

Now do you understand why you need changing? If I were the woman, I'd like to be around someone that actually knows that what I'm doing is going to kill me, and wants to change me to good. God wants us to repent and turn away from our work for these works bring death. He wants us to choose life. "Choose life", He said, "so that you may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19).

I am good, yes. I never said we are all sinners - you did.

You are good? Okay. But how do you measure your 'goodness'? What standard do you use?

I said I'm about to give up Christianity because of most of the messages in the Bible.

Like when God commands all people everywhere to repent? Yes, it's quite hard for the worldly man to accept the fact that he needs repentance.

If God created people because he loves us, it is petty to then kill them because they didn't listen to his every word. Life is not something to play with.

God is life and His words are life. Isn't it reasonable that if someone doesn't choose life chooses death?

Consider the cell. It has the nucleus in which the DNA is found. If you know the basics of biology tell me: what happens if the cell doesn't follow all the instructions found in the DNA? It will work improperly and die. The word of God is the DNA. If we don't follow its instructions we will work improperly and die because of it.

How on earth could killing be good?! To take someone's life away, if evil and cruel. The Bible says Thou shalt not kill right?

The Bible says "Thou shall not murder". And again, you made a statement without actually defending it. Taking someone's life is also making justice, if that person deserves death. Now tell me: isn't it true that we all deserve death?

I could never kill my child. I would rather die myself than kill my child.

First of all, it is not exactly killing, but sacrificing. Sacrificing is killing, yes, but there is a difference. God didn't just kill His Son, He sacrificed Him.

[FONT=Tahoma,Verdana]sacrifice [FONT=&quot]/ˈsæk.rɪ.faɪs/ [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana][FONT=Tahoma,Verdana] verb [/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma,Verdana]GIVE UP [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
1. [ T ] to give up something that is valuable to you in order to help another person
​

God gave up something extremely valuable to Him in order to help us. There is a difference, and an important one. Jesus' death was a sacrifice. It had a purpose: our salvation. God gave up something valuable in order to save us.

Why should God kill people? You say it as though killing is no big deal - it is.

I asked first: why shouldn't He?

We are all sinners, we all deserve death. The question is: why didn't God kill all of us already?

He loves us, yet because we not follow one of his rules, that's it - you burn in hell for eternity? It isn't just killing is it, it's torturing people. Where is the love?

Where is justice if He wouldn't? He isn't just love, He is also just.

Buy killing the sinner.

All of that - God hates the sin not the sinner, isn't true then is it?!

But in order to exterminate sin you will also hate to exterminate the sinner, since sins are produces by sinners. It's like: I hate cars but I'll let the car factory with all it's workers up and running. Or I hate bad fruits and I destroyed all of them but I'll let the tree which brings them intact. In order to eliminate sin God also has to eliminate the sinners, He has to eliminate the origin of sin. He has found another way: to convince sinners to repent, so they stop being sinners but righteous. But they don't listen to Him, as you can see when you observe the world.

Morals.

Like I said I don't lie or kill. So I can't trust in a God who himself kills.

Kills justly.

What is your standard for morals? Why is killing bad? Why is what you define good good and what you say is bad bad? What measure do you use?

Of course there is when you put it in terms of God and the Bible. I could warn someone that a car is coming towards them - out of love and kindness - I am doing something to help that person.

Yet, God would be driving the car and saying move or I'll hit you. He's warning, but is also doing the act that will hurt the person.

This is because God is both JUDGE and FATHER. As a father He loves us and seeks our good. As a judge He won't tolerate sin.

But I ask you: whose fault is it if you get crushed by the car? Isn't it yours because you were disobedient and simply refused to move?

Is the moderator going to kill you if you continued to use bad language?

He is going to ban me.

There is a difference. A lot of what the Bible says you cannot do is not evil or wicked.

Like what?

If he loves us so much, he should accept who we are, providing we don't kill etc.

First of all, why should He? We are machines that got way off God's plan. Why shouldn't He try to make us work as He originally plan? Doesn't He have the right?

Secondly, you said "providing we don't kill, etc.". In other words, "providing we don't do evil". But God is the one who defines what is good and evil, and according to God's standard we are all very bad. So He shouldn't accept any of us.

He could change things if he wants, but he doesn't he would prefer to carry on killing.

Give an example of what should He do to 'change things'.

Yes, right now I do. I didn't see it that way before. But, essentially it is saying 'do this, or die'. He killed his own son, so of course he won't have any problems in killing us.

In other words, eat healthy food instead of drinking ammonia. If you eat healthy food you'll live, if you drink ammonia you'll die. If we don't do what He instructs, we will die.

Why? Because His words are the DNA of the cell. If a cell doesn't follow the instructions found in the DNA it will not work properly and it will die. It's that simple. If we don't do what God says, if we don't listen to His word, if we don't follow the 'instructions' found in the 'DNA' we will die because we will not work properly.

He could not throw people in a fiery hell. He could not show his message of love - with death and pain.

He showed the consequences of sin - which are death and pain. Also, give an example: how do you propose He'd show His love? I dare you. Propose a better way trough which to make a lot of people repent and show His love than what He did. Be as specific as possible.

Also, are you suggesting God should stop being just?

If he loved us, he wouldn't kill us. Killing someone is not love.

He is not killing us out of love, but because of justice.

You can't create a child, then kill him out of love - if you love them you accept them, guide them, and show your love through a good means. Not order them to follow rules, threaten them with death if they disobey them and say 'I did warn you'.

So according to your reasoning the cell should stop listening to that "stupid" "idiotic" DNA who just can't stop giving instructions all day long and, if it would be intelligent, it would say non-stop "if you don't listen to me you'll die" or "listen to me otherwise you'll die"?

- but why take that out on every single person yet to be born into the world? Make people suffer for something that they didn't start?

Because Adam represented all mankind. He represented me and you. When he sinned we all sinned with him. When he failed we all failed with him. And since he represented us the consequences of his failure are upon us. We support the consequences of his sin even though we didn't sin ourselves, but as another consequence, we also follow him in his sin.

There is a very good imagery of this in the Bible. It's about David and Goliath. I will really take time to explain this since it is very important.

"Now the Philistines gathered their forces for war and assembled at Socoh in Judah. They pitched camp at Ephes Dammim, between Socoh and Azekah. Saul and the Israelites assembled and camped in the Valley of Elah and drew up their battle line to meet the Philistines. The Philistines occupied one hill and the Israelites another, with the valley between them." (1 Samuel 17:1-3)
​

And then Goliath came representing all the Philistines and challenged the Isaelites to choose a representative and make him fight for them:

"A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp. He was over nine feet tall. He had a bronze helmet on his head and wore a coat of scale armor of bronze weighing five thousand shekels; on his legs he wore bronze greaves, and a bronze javelin was slung on his back. His spear shaft was like a weaver's rod, and its iron point weighed six hundred shekels. His shield bearer went ahead of him. Goliath stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel, "Why do you come out and line up for battle? Am I not a Philistine, and are you not the servants of Saul? Choose a man and have him come down to me. If he is able to fight and kill me, we will become your subjects; but if I overcome him and kill him, you will become our subjects and serve us." Then the Philistine said, "This day I defy the ranks of Israel! Give me a man and let us fight each other."
​

As you see above, he represented the Philistine army. He challenged the Israelites to pick a representative and have him fight him. Now this is very important. If Goliath was going to win, the Israelites were going to become servants of the Philistines. If David would win, the Philistines would become Israel's servants. Remember this.

Now they pick David and the fight beings. David wins. And then:

"When the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they turned and ran. Then the men of Israel and Judah surged forward with a shout and pursued the Philistines to the entrance of Gath and to the gates of Ekron. Their dead were strewn along the Shaaraim road to Gath and Ekron. When the Israelites returned from chasing the Philistines, they plundered their camp." (1 Samuel 17:51-53)
​

Now this is important too. When David won Israel began chasing the Philistines and you can read the rest above or in your Bible.

Now what do I want to say with this? To being with, this can be looked upon as an allegory for Adam and us, and Christ and us.

We have a representative, just like the Philistines had Goliath and the Israelites had David. Our first representative was Adam. As you see above, when David won the whole Israelite army won shouting in joy. When Goliath lost all the Philistines lost. And so is with us: when Adam failed we failed as well.

He represented us. We were in him, one with him. When he sinned the consequences of his sin fell upon us, just like the consequences of Goliath's failure fell upon all the Philistines. All men have to work hard for their food, not just Adam. All women give birth with pain, not just Eve. All of us are slaves of sin, not just our first parents. We follow Adam in his defeat and sin just like the Philistines followed Goliath in his defeat. We will also sin as well, after having suffered the consequences of sin. A baby suffers the consequences of sin and will sin as well when he grows older.

I hope I explained myself well enough. Adam represented all of us. All humanity was in Adam or one with Adam. When he sinned the consequences of his sin fell upon all of us since he represented us, just like the Philistines had the consequences of Goliath's defeat upon their heads even though actually they didn't fight, but Goliath represented them and when he fought and lost, all of them lost.

And so is with us. Adam represented us and even though we didn't sin ourselves we share the consequences of his sin. In case I didn't explain well enough, I ask another person who reads this to explain it in more detail.

This is a very reasonable explanation, and it makes sense in my opinion.

Well if one is already dead then one will be grateful for salvation, but if one doesnt consider themselves in need of salvation then I dont see why they should be bothered about rules to follow, no harm can be done.

Very well said!

Have a nice day.

 

[Harry3142]

Religious Girl-

If God didn't consider sin as serious, would he have sent his own Son to die because of it? What you are reading in the Old Testament is the attitude that God himself has toward sin. We would call it 'zero tolerance'.

You take that attitude, add a leader whom Josephus' Jewish Antiquities describes as having been a general in pharaoh's army who successfully crushed a revolt in Ethiopia prior to leaving the royal court, throw into the mix what was for all intents and purposes a mob (the Hebrews) whose only concept of a society was to obey a master, and what you end up with is either harsh discipline or the total disintegration of the society.

Moses had a serious dilemma. He had a people that he had to train in the art of waging war, but who had no concept of how to use the weapons available in that time period, and not the slightest idea of what constituted battle tactics and deployment.

But they were literally surrounded by other people who were both skilled and experienced in warfare, and had the total destruction of the Hebrews as their goal. Moses had to work fast, and that meant he had to both work hard and demand that those whom he was training train hard. And in order to create an army that could both successfully defend against attack by their enemies and successfully attack and defeat those same enemies, he needed to train an army that would include every able-bodied man among them.

There's an old saying that I first heard years ago: "Harsh times make for harsh decisions." Moses and the Hebrews didn't need to find a war zone; they were there. Those who violated any of the societal laws (which is basically what The Mosaic Law is) weakened not only themselves, but also the entire society around them (a chain is only as strong as its weakest link). You need to be prepared to fight your enemy at any time of the day or night, literally. You find that you have someone in your midst that has flagrantly put his own wants and desires above those of the society to the level that he has blatantly broken one of the laws that 'cements' that society. You deal with it quickly and forcefully. It's called 'maintaining discipline'.

If you want to read the 613 commandments which formed the foundation of Hebrew society starting at the time of Moses, you can read the list of them that is on this website:

www.mosaic-law.com/the-613-commandments#more-22

 

[S.O.C]

The main thing that I struggle with is the acts in the Old Testament - the stoning, the murder etc. How could God have condoned that?

I do believe in Jesus and what he came to earth to do, and I know that with Him came the New Testament, but we can't ignore the OT. I find it difficult to accept and even explain to people why I would worship a God, who allowed, or even instructed for people to be killed. I guess Leviticus is a good example of what I mean.

'Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed' (Leviticus 20:9)

'If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die'. (Leviticus 20:10).

'Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community'. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

I know Jesus is good, but the OT confuses me. Why would the God who sent Jesus to save us, the good God who loves us, allow and instruct people to kill and murder others?

I understand what your saying. I don't know if this helps but before I repented and was born again I had three or four questions about God that made no sense to me and when I would question Christians they too could not give a reasonable answer, so I continued for a long time not wanting much to do with God or religion. It wasn't till after everything in my life completely fell apart that I turned to God and Jesus for answers. I still didn't have the answers that originally served as a road block in my relationship with God but instead of using it as a clever tool to stumping others (speaking of me personally) I decided to put the questions aside in order learn as much about God as possible. I can honestly say that when I trusted God and sought to know him that the more I opened my heart to receive his word the more he opened my eyes to the truth that gives me the assurance to know now that he is exactly who he say he is. Although I personally did not struggle with the same questions about God as you, non the less mine were alienating me from the mercy of God and from knowing Jesus. To this day I still don't have the answers that originally held me back, in fact I even have more! But God has shown me more than I could have ever imagined and there is so much in the word of God that I have yet to learn. But I have enough confidence in what he has shown me to trust him whole heartedly in the areas I lack understanding. I use to be very fearful of death, but now I look forward to that day when I will have my glorified body and rise up with Christ. I hear all the time about people having out of body experiences where they felt absolutely no pain as the hovered over their bodies in the spirit watching people try to bring their bodies back to life. The Bible says when we die in the flesh and are in the spirit that God will take away all our pain and dry all our tears. I believe that the moments we pass from the physical world to the spiritual realm that we have no recollection of our death or any pain we may have felt. So if God in his own wisdom which only God can comprehend decides that I am to die a horrified death than I still find comfort knowing it will only be turned in to a forgotten memory of no consequence but necessary to fulfill Gods greater purpose for my eternity of blissfulness with Jesus. Jesus said that the person who tries to hold on to their life for their own sake will loose it but the person who gives up their live for my (Jesus) sake will save it. I hope you find the answers your looking for but more important I hope you find peace in God.

 

[addo]

So the conclusion is that you must trust Him, as the Scriptures say: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart" (Proverbs 3:5). I am completely sure we didn't make you understand, but by this post I'm not trying to make you understand.

It is written in the Bible: "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness." (Genesis 15:6) So Abraham's faith in God was credited for him as righteousness. And so is our faith in the same God which makes us Christian.

But what kind of faith, or better said, in what circumstances did he have faith? It is written: "But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?" And Abram said, "You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir." (Genesis 15:2-3) In these circumstances, when Abraham was old, more than 70 years old, and Sarah's menstruation stopped, God made the promise to Abraham. And Abraham believed God even though his own reasoning said it was not possible: and old man like him and an old woman like Sarah, who was in menopause already, could not procreate (he expressed his doubts a few chapters later: "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" (Genesis 17:17)). But he chose to believe God, in the God of miracles, and to trust Him instead of his reasoning.

My point? I am asking you to make a step of faith, of trust in God, that He did it for the right reasons. I'm not asking you to understand it first. Just trust Him and you'll understand later. Just like Abraham who trusted God (and by this trust he was made righteous) instead of reasoning whether it is possible or not so I ask you to trust in God first, and then try to understand.

So please: just make this step of faith. I think I can assure you that most of us when we became Christians we became Christians not because we understood everything that was written there but because we trusted Him. And I don't think any of us repent of trusting Him. And, as the Scriptures give testimony, "whoever trusts in the LORD, happy is he" (Proverbs 16:20).

So, just trust Him. This is all I'm asking.

 

[.Iona.]

So, just trust Him. This is all I'm asking.

Well, of course - trust is a big thing when it comes to faith. But, I can't seem to place trust in someone who would as soon kill me as He would let me into Heaven. Because, that is what it comes down to. I could lead a holy, religious, almost perfect life - then one day (the day that I might just die) I sin, I go against His word and don't repent and that's it - it was all for nothing.

Right now, it seems too hot and miss. I feel that I will have to go against everything I believe in and everything I am, for him to love me - despite not being an evil person how I am. And, even if I am saved and in Heaven, I will know that millions of other good people are in Hell - and I couldn't live with that.

I won't just give up on God, but I really need to continue thinking about this. But, I can't see how I will accept a lot of the things in the Bible.

 

[addo]

I could lead a holy, religious, almost perfect life - then one day (the day that I might just die) I sin, I go against His word and don't repent and that's it - it was all for nothing.

What kind of sin are we talking about? And don't you know God forgives? And what makes you think you won't repent? If you lead until that instant a "holy, religious, almost perfect life" then you'd know His will well, and if you know His will well and you sin, you'll repent almost instantly of doing it. Tell me: what would have led you not to repent?

even if I am saved and in Heaven, I will know that millions of other good people are in Hell - and I couldn't live with that.

Good people? Why do you think these people are "good"? According to God's standard of goodness they are all "bad". How do you know who is 'good' and who is 'bad'?

 

[Merlin]

the OT preached stoning
the NT preaches eternal damnation in hell for the same acts... sin.

 

[Merlin]

I could lead a holy, religious, almost perfect life - then one day (the day that I might just die) I sin, I go against His word and don't repent and that's it - it was all for nothing.

God doesn't care about your personal goodness. It isn't good enough.
Your personal goodness is about as precious as used toilet paper to Him.
He wants you to trust in Him, not be self-righteous.

 

[.Iona.]

What kind of sin are we talking about? And don't you know God forgives? And what makes you think you won't repent? If you lead until that instant a "holy, religious, almost perfect life" then you'd know His will well, and if you know His will well and you sin, you'll repent almost instantly of doing it. Tell me: what would have led you not to repent?

People can turn away from God for many reasons. People can begin to believe that 'sins' aren't actually all that sinful, so not feel a need to repent. For example - one may believe their whole lives that abortion is wrong, then one day they are raped which results in a pregnancy and they decide to abort. They might feel it was right, and not repent for that.

Also, one can be a Conservative Christian, and later in life become more Liberal (and vice versa). Correct me if I am wrong, but there are many things that Conservative Christians believe are sins, which Liberals do not. So, although you may define yourself as a Christian - if the conservative 'version' of the Bible is correct - the good, religious life you led as a Liberal is worth nothing.

Good people? Why do you think these people are "good"? According to God's standard of goodness they are all "bad". How do you know who is 'good' and who is 'bad'?

I've said before, I don't believe that people are born 'bad'. There are bad people out there, both Christian and otherwise, but you are not 'bad' for not believing in God.