The Eucharist, The Cross, and OT Sacrifices

[disciple Clint]

Leviticus 16

No, those sins are not covered, the blood of the animals is not a covering for sin, only the blood of Jesus is a covering for the sins, our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus, the animal sacrifices were an atonement not a covering, a covering causes something to disappear, no sin disappeared until it was covered by the blood of Jesus. The atonement of the relationship between man and God by animal sacrifices does not accomplish the cleansing of sin

 

[disciple Clint]

Psa 32:1 Blessed is he
whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.

The parallelism in the above verse shows that covered = forgiven. In fact, the TLV Messianic Jewish translation has the following:

Psa 32:1 Of David, a contemplative song.
Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is pardoned.

They rendered the word "covered" into "pardoned."

Well except for the fact that no sins were forgiven until Jesus died on the cross.

 

[disciple Clint]

Three testimonies:

1) Romans 3:25; Acts 14:16, 17:30.

2) Day of Atonement

3) And then there was the Ark of the Testimony, testifying to their sin, which contained:
1) two stone tablets - testimony to their sin in breaking the commandments,
2) jar of manna - testimony to their grumbling (Exodus 16:2-4, Exodus 16:13),
2 Aaron's staff - testimony to Korah's rebellion against the priesthood (Numbers 16:1-3, Numbers 17:10),

with its solid gold Atonement (to cover) Cover - covering their sin in the Ark,
and also the throne where God sits (Psalms 99:1; Exodus 25:22; 1 Samuel 4:4; 2 Samuel 6:2),
with two solid gold angels - Justice and Righteousness, which are the foundation of his throne
(Psalms 89:14, Psalms 97:2),

making the Atonement Cover both the judgment seat and the mercy seat of God (as the cross of atonement was both God's judgment and Gods mercy).

atonement is not forgiveness, atonement is about relationship, no sin were forgiven until Jesus died on the cross.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No, those sins are not covered, the blood of the animals is not a covering for sin, only the blood of Jesus is a covering for the sins, our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus, the animal sacrifices were an atonement not a covering, a covering causes something to disappear, no sin disappeared until it was covered by the blood of Jesus. The atonement of the relationship between man and God by animal sacrifices does not accomplish the cleansing of sin

I didn't write it, I am just submitting the information to you. It says what it says if you agree or not...

"For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord."

The same Hebrew word is used in Psalms 78:38

 

[Andrewn]

Well except for the fact that no sins were forgiven until Jesus died on the cross.

It is not right to limit God's ability. God always forgave sins. He was always capable of forgiving sins. Jesus forgave sins during his ministry, before the crucifixion. How else did he call people "righteous" like Noah, Abraham, Lot, Job, David, and many others.

The Lord's sacrifice was to remove the penalty of eternal death. To reconcile the world to God.

 

[disciple Clint]

It is not right to limit God's ability. God always forgave sins. He was always capable of forgiving sins. Jesus forgave sins during his ministry, before the crucifixion. How else did he call people "righteous" like Noah, Abraham, Lot, Job, David, and many others.

The Lord's sacrifice was to remove the penalty of eternal death. To reconcile the world to God.

Hebrews 10:4-6 KJV
4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body hast thou prepared me: 6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

 

[Clare73]

Well except for the fact that no sins were forgiven until Jesus died on the cross.

Sin was forgiven and covered (Romans 4:7) by the animal sacrifices in anticipation of Jesus' atonement which paid their penalty (Romans 3:25), which animal blood could not pay (Hebrews 10:4).

No, those sins are not covered, the blood of the animals is not a covering for sin, only the blood of Jesus is a covering for the sins, our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus,

There is no sin covered (hid) by Jesus, he either remits (disappears) by faith, or it remains.
It was the blood of animal sacrifices which covered forgiven sin (Romans 4:7) until it was paid for by Jesus.

the animal sacrifices were an atonement not a covering, a covering causes something to disappear,

No, a covering simply hides, it does not remove/remit (Hebrews 10:4). The blood of animal sacrifices covered (hid) sin, which was forgiven (Romans 4:7) in anticipation of Jesus' paying for it on the cross (Romans 3:25).

no sin disappeared until it was covered by the blood of Jesus. The atonement of the relationship between man and God by animal sacrifices does not accomplish the cleansing of sin

The atonement blood of animals covered (hid) forgiven sin (Romans 4:7) until it was paid for by the atonement of Jesus Christ (Romans 3:25).

Well except for the fact that no sins were forgiven until Jesus died on the cross.

 

[Clare73]

atonement is not forgiveness, atonement is about relationship, no sin were forgiven until Jesus died on the cross.

Romans 5:11 (katallage) is about reconciliation, not about atonement, as also with Romans 11:15 and
2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

Romans 3:25; Hebrews 9:5; 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10 are about atonement, propitiation.

Atonement is about satisfying (paying, removing = forgiving) a debt, which satisfaction restores relationship, and which forgiveness was granted by the animal sacrifices in anticipation of Jesus' payment of our sin debt on the cross (Romans 3:25).

However, the forgiveness by atonement of animal sacrifices only covered (hid) sin, its debt remained to be paid in the future by the true atonement to which they pointed, foreshadowed.

It is reconciliation that is about relationship.
Atonement is about payment of our sin debt, which reconciles relationship only by faith.

no sin were forgiven until Jesus died on the cross.

To forgive = to cancel the debt, which was done by the animal sacrifices in anticipation of Jesus' future payment of it on the cross. (Romans 3:25)

The OT animal sacrifices forgave and covered (hid) sin (Romans 4:7), in anticipation of Jesus' blood sacrifice which paid the sin debt. (Romans 3:25), and remitted them (Hebrews 10:4).

 

[Clare73]

It is not right to limit God's ability. God always forgave sins. He was always capable of forgiving sins.

Precisely. . .it's not, and never is, about "God's capability." That's a strawman.

It is always about God's purpose, will and plan.
And his will and plan were to forgive (cancellation of debt) man's sin in anticipation of Christ's payment of our sin debt on the cross (Romans 3:25), and to cover man's forgiven sin (Romans 4:7) with the blood of animal sacrifice until that time when he would permanently remit (take away) man's sin. (Hebrews 10:4)

Jesus forgave sins during his ministry, before the crucifixion.

Yes, in anticipation of his payment of their sin debt.

How else did he call people "righteous"

like Noah, Abraham, Lot, Job, David, and many others.

The same way God called Abraham righteous, by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3), by which their sins were forgiven (sin debt cancelled, in anticipation of Jesus payment of their debt, Romans 3:25), and by which he imputed his own righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21) to them, as he does in the NT with the righteousness of Jesus Christ in justification by faith, apart from works. (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28)

The Lord's sacrifice was to remove the penalty of eternal death. To reconcile the world to God.

Which is done by paying sin's penalty so that the sin debt is cancelled (i.e., "forgiven," an accounting term), which forgiveness of debt was applied to the OT saints in anticipation of Jesus' payment of it on the cross (Romans 3:25).

 

[Soyeong]

I wasn't sure whether to post this in General Theology or Traditional Theology. Perhaps by posting here, there may be more responses from believers in the Real Presence.

The Cross is the central sacrifice of love around which the entire history revolves. The end of one age and adjuration of another.

The question is what is the relationship of the eucharist and OT sacrifices to Christ's sacrifice?

All of the OT point towards Christ's sacrifice. If all of Israel had accepted Christ, then the temple would not have been destroyed and sacrifices would still be being offered. If you want, I can link you to a study on Finding Messiah in Leviticus.

 

[disciple Clint]

There is no sin covered (hid) by Jesus, it is either remitted (disappears) by faith, or it remains.

No, a covering simply hides, it does not remove. The animal sacrifices covered (hid) sin.

The atonement of animals covered (hid) the sin until it was remitted by the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Sorry but it hid nothing it was all there for God to see and it stayed there for God to see until Jesus washed it away.

 

[disciple Clint]

Romans 5:11 (katallage) is about reconciliation, not about atonement, as also with Romans 11:15 and
2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

Romans 3:25; Hebrews 9:5; 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10 are about atonement, propitiation.

Atonement is about satisfying (paying and removing) a debt, which satisfaction restores relationship, which the animal sacrifices temporarily did, until the atonement of Jesus Christ, of which they were an anticipation.

However, the atonement of the animal sacrifices merely covered (hid) sin, its debt remained, to be paid in the future by the true atonement to which they pointed, foreshadowed.

Reconciliation is about relationship.
Atonement is about payment of our sin debt, which reconciles relationship only by faith.

Yes, to forgive = to cancel the debt, which was not done until it was paid on the cross.

The OT animal sacrifices covered (hid) sin, effecting reconciliation with God, until
sin was forgiven (sin debt paid) by the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ which remitted sin, by faith.

Well obviously atonement is achieved by the works of Jesus nothing new there but I stand by what I said regarding sins committed prior to the death of Jesus

 

[Clare73]

All of the OT point towards Christ's sacrifice. If all of Israel had accepted Christ, then the temple would not have been destroyed and sacrifices would still be being offered. If you want, I can link you to a study on Finding Messiah in Leviticus.

And if God hadn't created Adam, there would be no need for the cross.

He came to die as a ransom (Matthew 20:28), which would have been accomplished, and his death thereby ending the sacrifices.

 

[Clare73]

Sorry but it hid nothing it was all there for God to see and it stayed there for God to see until Jesus washed it away.

You don't understand the relationship among Leviticus, Romans 3:25, Romans 4:7; Hebrews 10:4.

The atonement cover symbolically covered their sin represented by those items in the Ark.

 

[Clare73]

Well obviously atonement is achieved by the works of Jesus nothing new there but
I stand by what I said regarding sins committed prior to the death of Jesus

You are free to stand by what you say. However, Scripture says:

sins committed prior to the death of Jesus were forgiven (debt cancelled) and covered (Romans 4:7),
in anticipation of Jesus' paying their penalty (Romans 3:25),
for it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to remit (take away) sin. (Hebrews 10:4)

 

[Clare73]

atonement is not forgiveness, atonement is about relationship,
no sin were forgiven until Jesus died on the cross.

Scripture presents otherwise:

Covered = forgiven (Romans 4:7)
The blood of animals does not remit (take away) sin (Hebrews 10:4).
Sin was forgiven and covered (Romans 4:7) by the blood of the animal sacrifices, until it was remitted by the blood of Christ (Romans 3:25).

 

[disciple Clint]

You don't understand the relationship among Leviticus, Romans 3:25, Romans 4:7; Hebrews 10:4.

How, just exactly how, could you possibly begin to know what I know or do not know?

 

[disciple Clint]

You are free to stand by what you say. However, Scripture says:

sins committed prior to the death of Jesus were forgiven (debt cancelled) and covered (Romans 4:7),
in anticipation of Jesus' paying their penalty (Romans 3:25),
for it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to remit (take away) sin. (Hebrews 10:4)

You are taking an interpretation that is not in standing with the accepted interpretations, us a commentary and find out what those scriptures actually mean.

 

[disciple Clint]

Covered = forgiven (Romans 4:7)
The blood of animals does not remit (take away) sin (Hebrews 10:4).
Sin was forgiven and covered (Romans 4:7) by the blood of the animal sacrifices, until it was remitted by the blood of Christ.

again that is not what it is saying, who besides you agrees with your interpretation?

 

[disciple Clint]

Covered = forgiven (Romans 4:7)
The blood of animals does not remit (take away) sin (Hebrews 10:4).
Sin was forgiven and covered (Romans 4:7) by the blood of the animal sacrifices, until it was remitted by the blood of Christ.

Ok you just cannot accept the fact that sins were not forgiven by animal sacrifices, then please explain if those sin were forgiven why it was necessary for the sacrifice of Jesus.