The Eucharist, The Cross, and OT Sacrifices

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Ok you just cannot accept the fact that sins were not forgiven by animal sacrifices, then please explain if those sin were forgiven why it was necessary for the sacrifice of Jesus.
There is no doubt that you are correct: sins were not forgiven by animal sacrifices.

Heb 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Yet, sins were forgiven for those who placed their faith in God:

Rom 4:5 However, when someone who does not work places his faith in one who justifies the godless, such faith is reckoned as righteousness.6 In the same way, David speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God attributes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven
and whose sins are blotted out.
8 Blessed is the man
to whom the Lord imputes no guilt.”

Psa 51:16
For You would not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it,
nor be pleased by burnt offerings.
17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit.
A broken and a contrite heart, O God,
You will not despise.

if those sin were forgiven why it was necessary for the sacrifice of Jesus.
Post #65.

You believe that sins were not forgiven before Christ. What is your evidence?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There is no doubt that you are correct: sins were not forgiven by animal sacrifices.

Heb 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Yet, sins were forgiven for those who placed their faith in God:

Rom 4:5 However, when someone who does not work places his faith in one who justifies the godless, such faith is reckoned as righteousness.6 In the same way, David speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God attributes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven
and whose sins are blotted out.
8 Blessed is the man
to whom the Lord imputes no guilt.”


Post #65.

You believe that sins were not forgiven before Christ. What is your evidence?
My evidence is the sacrifice of Jesus, the four Gospels as well as the rest of the Bible. Nothing was forgiven until Jesus paid the price for all sins, past, present, and future. That sacrifice retroactively provided forgiveness for those who accepted the word of God in the O.T. regarding the future sacrifice of Jesus, they acted in faith of the future forgiveness, but that forgiveness was not effected until Jesus died, which is why He went to Sheol after His death to liberate all those who had faith in Him and the future forgiveness. I think you and I Andrew are in agreement on this, are we not?
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
which is why He went to Sheol after His death to liberate all those who had faith in Him and the future forgiveness. I think you and I Andrew are in agreement on this, are we not?
Yes, we are in agreement.

That sacrifice retroactively provided forgiveness for those who accepted the word of God in the O.T. regarding the future sacrifice of Jesus, they acted in faith of the future forgiveness, but that forgiveness was not effected until Jesus died,
I'm wondering if we're using different terms to describe the same thing. I agree that "that forgiveness was not effected until Jesus died" if it means that the penalty of sin, which is death, was not removed until then. When Jesus conquered Hades, he led those who were captive in prison to Paradise:

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says,

“When He went up on high,
He led captive a troop of captives
and gave gifts to his people.”

9 Now what does “He went up” mean, except that He first went down to the lower regions of the earth?

Luk 23:43 Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”


Comment: The difference between your view and mine is that you consider that those in Abraham's bosom had not been forgiven and I think the evidence supports that they had been forgiven and considered righteous, but were not yet in Paradise.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You are taking an interpretation that is not in standing with the accepted interpretations,
us a commentary and find out what those scriptures actually mean.
again that is not what it is saying, who besides you agrees with your interpretation?
Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration.
Ok you just cannot accept the fact that sins were not forgiven by animal sacrifices, then please explain if those sin were forgiven why it was necessary for the sacrifice of Jesus.
I did (post #75), but happy to repeat it.

The explanation is in Romans 3:25-26, where God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement for the sake of justice, because in his forbearance
1) he had left the sins committed beforehand (OT) unpunished (but not unforgiven--Romans 4:7), and
2) for the sake of his justice at the present time.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, we are in agreement.

I'm wondering if we're using different terms to describe the same thing. I agree that "that forgiveness was not effected until Jesus died" if it means that the penalty of sin, which is death, was not removed until then. When Jesus conquered Hades, he led those who were captive in prison to Paradise:
Eph 4:8 - Therefore it says,
“When He went up on high,
He led captive a troop of captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
The Greek reads: "he led captivity captive," where "captivity" refers to Satan and sin, whom in Jesus' triumphant ascension into heaven, he took captive those who had taken others captive.
9 Now what does “He went up” mean, except that He first went down to the lower regions of the earth?
Luk 23:43 Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Comment: The difference between your view and mine is that you consider that those in Abraham's bosom had not been forgiven and I think the evidence supports that they had been forgiven and considered righteous, but were not yet in Paradise.
But it seems they were in Paradise, for it was not those in Abraham's bosom that Jesus led captive, it was Satan and Sin, like a victorious king after triumphs on the battlefield leads his captives on display in his return.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yes, we are in agreement.


I'm wondering if we're using different terms to describe the same thing. I agree that "that forgiveness was not effected until Jesus died" if it means that the penalty of sin, which is death, was not removed until then. When Jesus conquered Hades, he led those who were captive in prison to Paradise:

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says,

“When He went up on high,
He led captive a troop of captives
and gave gifts to his people.”

9 Now what does “He went up” mean, except that He first went down to the lower regions of the earth?

Luk 23:43 Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”


Comment: The difference between your view and mine is that you consider that those in Abraham's bosom had not been forgiven and I think the evidence supports that they had been forgiven and considered righteous, but were not yet in Paradise.
You are trying to apply forgiveness before the price for sin was paid, that is like claiming that you have an educational degree before it has been awarded, you may have done the work but you do not have the degree yet. It could be argued that since God is not bound by time everything happened simultaneously, I guess, but since we are governed by time, I am looking at it from the perspective of man.
 
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration.

I did (post #75), but happy to repeat it.

The explanation is in Romans 3:25-26, where God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement for the sake of justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand (OT) unpunished, but not unforgiven (Romans 4:7), and for the sake of his justice at the present time.
Again that is your interpretation, where is your evidence that your interpretation is correct, can you find scholars who agree with you?
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
that is like claiming that you have an educational degree before it has been awarded, you may have done the work but you do not have the degree yet. It could be argued that since God is not bound by time everything happened simultaneously,
You understand me correctly. I actually had that academic degree perspective in mind when I wrote my message (you read my mind). But also, remember, the forgiven were in Abraham's bosom, not with the rich man (and the general population). So, perhaps it is like a medical doctor, or another professional, who had graduated but was still in internship. He was not yet fully licensed to practice on their own.

but since we are governed by time, I am looking at it from the perspective of man.
I understand your perspective. The problem I have with it is that it seems to limit God's ability to forgive before Jesus sacrifice. In what sense was Abraham justified / considered righteous without being forgiven?

Our perspectives are very close, though.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Again that is your interpretation, where is your evidence that your interpretation is correct,
can you find scholars who agree with you?
Not my job. That's not how this works.
I am right until you Biblically prove me wrong, as you are right until I Biblically prove you wrong.

And the only agreement required is the Bible itself, which I do have in:

1) Romans 3:25-26, where God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement for the sake of justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand (OT) unpunished, but not unforgiven (Romans 4:7), and for the sake of his justice at the present time.

2) Psalms 32:1-2 that transgression (sin) is forgiven and covered (by the blood of the animal sacrifices).

What "scholar" disagrees with Romans 3:25-26 that God in his forbearance left the sins committed by the OT saints unpunished, for the sake of his justice at the present time?

What "scholar" disagrees with Psalms 32:1-2 that transgression (sin) is forgiven and covered (by the blood of the animal sacrifices?

Present what they say that I may examine it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Not my job. That's not how this works.
I am right until you Biblically prove me wrong, as you are right until I Biblically prove you wrong.

And the only agreement required is the Bible itself, which I do have in:

1) Romans 3:25-26, where God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement for the sake of justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand (OT) unpunished, but not unforgiven (Romans 4:7), and for the sake of his justice at the present time.

2) Psalms 32:1-2 that transgression (sin) is forgiven and covered (by the blood of the animal sacrifices?

What "scholar" disagrees with Romans 3:25-26 that God in his forbearance left the sins committed by the OT saints unpunished, for the sake of his justice at the present time?

What "scholar" disagrees with Psalms 32:1-2 that transgression (sin) is forgiven and covered (by the blood of the animal sacrifices?

Present what they say that I may examine it.
You are very creative, and original.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Not my job. That's not how this works.
I am right until you Biblically prove me wrong, as you are right until I Biblically prove you wrong.
And the only agreement required is the Bible itself, which I do have in:

1) Romans 3:25-26, where God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement for the sake of justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand (OT) unpunished, but not unforgiven (Romans 4:7), and for the sake of his justice at the present time.

2) Psalms 32:1-2 that transgression (sin) is forgiven and covered (by the blood of the animal sacrifices?

What "scholar" disagrees with Romans 3:25-26 that God in his forbearance left the sins committed by the OT saints unpunished, for the sake of his justice at the present time?

What "scholar" disagrees with Psalms 32:1-2 that transgression (sin) is forgiven and covered (by the blood of the animal sacrifices?

Present what they say that I may examine it.
You are very creative, and original.
Yeah. . .truth can be that way to some.

Yours falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration. . .non responsive.

And I have Romans 3:25 to thank for that truth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yeah. . .truth can be that way to some.

Yours falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration. . .non responsive.

And I have Romans 3:25 to thank for that truth.
I let you off the hook for not able to defend your positions, I felt that was very Christian of me. You made assertions of fact it is up to you to be able to defend them.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I let you off the hook for not able to defend your positions, I felt that was very Christian of me. You made assertions of fact it is up to you to be able to defend them.
They are defended by the Scriptures from which they are taken; i.e., the following three:

1) Romans 3:25-26, where God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement for the sake of justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand (OT) unpunished, but not unforgiven (Romans 4:7), and for the sake of his justice at the present time.

2) Psalms 32:1-2 that transgression (sin) is forgiven and covered (by the blood of the animal sacrifices).

It now falls to you to Biblically demonstrate where I am wrong.
Until you do, my demonstration stands.

And I won't be arguing with you about the requirement of demonstrating your assertions.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
They are defended by the Scriptures from which they are taken; i.e., the following three:

1) Romans 3:25-26, where God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement for the sake of justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand (OT) unpunished, but not unforgiven (Romans 4:7), and for the sake of his justice at the present time.

2) Psalms 32:1-2 that transgression (sin) is forgiven and covered (by the blood of the animal sacrifices?

It now falls to you to Biblically demonstrate where I am wrong.
Until you do, my demonstration stands.

And I won't be arguing with you about the requirement of demonstrating your assertions.
Your argument is based on YOUR understanding of those scriptures which you are unable to substantiate. Where is your evidence that your understanding is the correct understanding, that is what you are unable to provide.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Your argument is based on YOUR understanding of those scriptures
which you are unable to substantiate.
Where is your evidence that your understanding is the correct understanding, that is what you are unable to provide.
The Scriptures are my substantiation.

It is your job to Biblically refute my argument.

Sorry, but that is how discussion of dissenting opinions is done:
you give your argument which stands until I refute it,
I give my argument which stands until you refute it.

So far, my argument is still standing.

Are you new to this form of discussion?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Scriptures are my substantiation.

It is your job to Biblically refute my argument.

Sorry, but that is how discussion of dissenting opinions is done:
you give your argument which stands until I refute it,
I give my argument which stands until you refute it.

So far, my argument is still standing.

Are you new to this form of discussion?
Not at all, are you new to having to provide evidence for the accuracy of your interpretations of scripture. Clearly you are unable to do that so, please excuse me if I do not accept YOUR interpretation of the meaning of scripture verses. Feel free to provide evidence from any recognized source that validates your understanding and interpretation of scripture. Unless and until you are able to do that discussion is a waste of time.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Not at all, are you new to having to provide evidence for the accuracy of your interpretations of scripture. Clearly you are unable to do that so, please excuse me if I do not accept YOUR interpretation of the meaning of scripture verses. Feel free to provide evidence from any recognized source that validates your understanding and interpretation of scripture. Unless and until you are able to do that discussion is a waste of time.
Agreed. . .with no demonstration of the error of my argument, it is definitely a waste of time if you do not present one.
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The following verses mention God's and Christ's forgiveness of sins _before_ the crucifixion:

Mat 6:14 “For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.”

Luk 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”

Psa 86:5 “You, Lord, are forgiving and good, abounding in love to all who call to you.”

Gen 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Mar 11:25 “And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

Psa 32:1 “Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.”

Pro 17:9 “Love prospers when a fault is forgiven, but dwelling on it separates close friends.”

Psa 103:12 "As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."

Psa 51:16-17 For You would not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it, nor be pleased by burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit. A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Dan 9:9 "The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him."

Isa 43:25 “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more ..."

Psa 130:3-4 “If You, Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand? But there is forgiveness with You, that You may be feared.”

Luk 5:20 Seeing their faith he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Joh 8:11 “No, Lord,” she said. And Jesus said, “Neither do I [condemn you]. Go and sin no more.”


Comment
: I was too lazy to quote these scripture earlier. But just in case someone doubts that God has always been forgiving, without need for animal or human sacrifices, here they are.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Arctangent
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The following verses mention God's and Christ's forgiveness of sins _before_ the crucifixion:

Mat 6:14 “For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.”

Luk 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”

Psa 86:5 “You, Lord, are forgiving and good, abounding in love to all who call to you.”

Gen 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Mar 11:25 “And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

Psa 32:1 “Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.”

Pro 17:9 “Love prospers when a fault is forgiven, but dwelling on it separates close friends.”

Psa 103:12 "As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."

Psa 51:16-17 For You would not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it, nor be pleased by burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit. A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Dan 9:9 "The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him."

Isa 43:25 “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more ..."

Psa 130:3-4 “If You, Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand? But there is forgiveness with You, that You may be feared.”

Luk 5:20 Seeing their faith he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Joh 8:11 “No, Lord,” she said. And Jesus said, “Neither do I [condemn you]. Go and sin no more.”


Comment
: I was too lazy to quote these scripture earlier. But just in case someone doubts that God has always been forgiving, without need for animal or human sacrifices, here they are.
which is then going to raise the question in some people, if God can forgive sin at anytime, what was the purpose of the death of His Son? Why doesn't God just forgive everyone who follows His laws? Do you see the problem here?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
which is then going to raise the question in some people, if God can forgive sin at anytime, what was the purpose of the death of His Son? Why doesn't God just forgive everyone who follows His laws? Do you see the problem here?
In message #65, I wrote, "The Lord's sacrifice was to remove the penalty of eternal death. To reconcile the world to God." But this may not be a clear answer, or the only answer.

For a better and more detailed answer, the following 2 articles are definitely worth the time spent in reading them:

What Christ Accomplished on the Cross

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Doctrine of the Atonement
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0