The Eucharist, The Cross, and OT Sacrifices

[The Liturgist]

They were "covered" and had to have continuous yearly sacrifices until the permanent sacrifice of Yeshua on the cross...

Respectfully, there seems to be a divergence between how I was catechized into Eastern Orthodoxy and your perspectives in this thread.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Respectfully, there seems to be a divergence between how I was catechized into Eastern Orthodoxy and your perspectives in this thread.

Like what exactly? I am cradle.

 

[The Liturgist]

Like what exactly? I am cradle.

Specifically concerning the nature of the Old Testament sacrifices, and the doctrine of the Harrowing of Hell, and also with respect to the Christological focus of OT interpretation. It could be I am just not understanding your message, so forgive me, but I am confused. If you could, I don’t know, point me to where I might find a clarification of your perspective in, say, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, that would help me understand your position better.

 

[Clare73]

Really? I guess God was just kidding in Leviticus 16:30

The Day of Atonement cleansed sin for the past year, not the coming year.

 

[Clare73]

And the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church is that righteous Jews and gentiles were rescued from Hades, in an event known as the Harrowing of Hell on Holy Saturday. Hence the Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom. Certainly observing the Mosaic Law with piety would have been of benefit, but they were still saved by Christ on the Cross and not by Yom Kippur.

The Day of Atonement was mainly about cleansing the holy things; i.e., tabernacle, etc., which had become defiled by being in the presence of a sinful people, which also included sacrifice for the cleansing of the priests, their family and the people.

 

[Clare73]

Not sure what kind of translation that is but that is not exactly what the original Greek says...basically it says that the blood worked to a certain extent, but His Blood is so much better (9:13-15).

The blood of animals forgave and covered (hid) sin (Psalms 32:1; Hebrews 10:4) until the blood of Christ remitted sin by faith. (Hebrews 10:4)

 

[Clare73]

Psa 32:1 has nothing to do w/ sacrifices.

It states the forgiveness and covering of sin, which were by animal sacrifice in anticipation of Christ's sacrifice (Romans 3:25), which would actually pay for them.

And Leviticus, as I mentioned before is a late composition. I do not accept its proclamations when they contradict the NT.

Leviticus in no way contradicts the NT, it foreshadows it.

Back in the 1st century, even the Jewish Essenes refused to participate in temple worship. This knew it was not necessary for their salvation, and for purification of the flesh, they used washings instead.

My regard for the Priestly source is similar to the Deuterocanonical books: nice reading but do not base your theology on them .

 

[Clare73]

Leviticus as a late composition is a theory. Many do not agree while others think it was written over time, starting from Exodus. My point regarding the Psalm was the same word is used. Do you accept ANY OT books LOL?

Every word of Leviticus was spoken to Moses by God from the tabernacle while they were at Mount Sinai (Leviticus 1:1) after their exodus from Egypt.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Day of Atonement cleansed sin for the past year, not the coming year.

That is what I said...a yearly sacrifice

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Every word of Leviticus was spoken to Moses by God from the tabernacle while they were at Mount Sinai (Leviticus 1:1) after their exodus from Egypt.

Yes, that is my take on it, but others here disagreed...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The blood of animals covered sin (Psalms 32:1) until the blood of Christ remitted sin by faith.

Yes, already said that in post #33 and posted Psalms 32:1

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Specifically concerning the nature of the Old Testament sacrifices, and the doctrine of the Harrowing of Hell, and also with respect to the Christological focus of OT interpretation. It could be I am just not understanding your message, so forgive me, but I am confused.

I don't understand your confusion. I don't disagree with what you said. I was just trying to explain what OT practices were...

 

[Clare73]

That is what I said...a yearly sacrifice

Yes, I am in agreement with what you said in those several posts--the sacrifice for "that year" meaning the previous year, not the coming year--I was merely filling out some of the details.

 

[disciple Clint]

The Day of Atonement cleansed sin for the past year, not the coming year.

Sins were not cleansed prior to the death of Jesus, the relationship with God was restored pending the acceptance of Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

Sins were not cleansed prior to the death of Jesus, the relationship with God was restored pending the acceptance of Jesus.

Their sins were covered. . .

EDIT: a new point enters the discussion: forgiveness

. . .having been forgiven (= cancellation of debt), in anticipation of Jesus' payment of their debt, but in the meantime covered., not taken away (Hebrews 10:4).

 

[disciple Clint]

Their sins were covered, not remitted until faith in Jesus.

covered with what and to what effect? Do you have a scripture?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

covered with what and to what effect? Do you have a scripture?

Leviticus 16

 

[Andrewn]

covered with what and to what effect? Do you have a scripture?

Psa 32:1 Blessed is he
whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.

The parallelism in the above verse shows that covered = forgiven. In fact, the TLV Messianic Jewish translation has the following:

Psa 32:1 Of David, a contemplative song.
Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is pardoned.

They rendered the word "covered" into "pardoned."

 

[Clare73]

covered with what and to what effect? Do you have a scripture?

Three testimonies:

1) Hebrews 10:4; Romans 4:7, Romans 3:25; Acts 14:16, 17:30.

2) Day of Atonement - covered with the blood of the animals

3) And then there was the Ark of the Testimony, testifying to their sin, which contained:
a) two stone tablets - testimony to their sin in breaking the commandments,
b) jar of manna - testimony to their grumbling (Exodus 16:2-4, Exodus 16:13),
c) Aaron's staff - testimony to Korah's rebellion against the priesthood (Numbers 16:1-3, Numbers 17:10),

with its solid gold Atonement (to cover) Cover - covering their sin in the Ark,
and also the throne where God sits (Psalms 99:1; Exodus 25:22; 1 Samuel 4:4; 2 Samuel 6:2),
with two solid gold angels - Justice and Righteousness, which are the foundation of his throne
(Psalms 89:14, Psalms 97:2),

making the Atonement Cover both the judgment seat and the mercy seat of God (as the cross of atonement was both God's judgment and God's mercy).

 

[Clare73]

Psa 32:1 Blessed is he
whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.

The parallelism in the above verse shows that covered = forgiven.

That is because forgiven = debt cancelled, which was done by the animal sacrifices in anticipation of Jesus' payment of that debt on the cross (Romans 3:25), and in the meantime, the sin was covered by the blood of animals (Romans 4:7).

In fact, the TLV Messianic Jewish translation has the following:

Psa 32:1 Of David, a contemplative song.
Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is pardoned.

They rendered the word "covered" into "pardoned."