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Colter

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Satan is allowed to fool the whole world. Then those children of God who were fooled are tortured for an eternity. If God were really that way then he wouldn't be an example for anyone to follow.
 
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Foxfyre

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I will preface my thoughts by saying that none of us know what hell will be though the Bible is pretty consistent in warning us we don't want to be there. And we don't know what heaven will be but we are assure that's where we want to be. I presume one is the absence of God and the other is with God. At least that's how I look at it.

I am pretty sure it is not given to us to know the ways of God and who goes to heaven or hell is His business alone, even as many of us share the assurance of eternal life with God. And I am pretty sure that nobody has ever sought God by being told he/she was going to hell.

I believe those in grace will simply seamlessly step from this life into the next and it will be wonderful.

Those who don't might just have to live their lives over and over with nothing ever getting better or different--eternal Ground Hog Day.
 
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mark kennedy

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Congratulations, you found the one verse I don't really have an answer for. Every other reference would seem to indicate the flames and smoke are forever, this one specifically says their, 'torment', is forever and puts a strong emphasis on that fact. I'm honestly not totally convinced but here is how I attempt to reconcile this one to annihilation. Looking at the word for torment used:

Torment (βασανίζω basanizō G928),properly signifies "to test by rubbing on the touchstone" (basanos, "a touchstone"), then, "to question by applying torture;" hence "to vex, torment;" in the Passive Voice, "to be harassed, distressed;" it is said of men struggling in a boat against wind and waves, Mat 14:24, RV, "distressed" (AV, "tossed"); Mar 6:48, RV, "distressed" (AV, "toiling"). (Vine’s Dictionary)
The etymology of the word indicates a metal being tested by an outside source, it also indicates the apostles 'toiling' in the midst of a storm. I'm not pretending to have a definitive answer here but I think the reference is to what is torturing them, not as much emphasis on their personal suffering as would appear in the English translation.

No. Satan and demons will not be annihilated, but instead will be tormented forever.
Why? They are spirit beings.

Spirits cannot be totally eliminated. They can die, but they cannot be annihilated.

I thought that for a long time myself but God creates the universe and life ex nihilo, literally, 'out of nothing'. It makes sense to be there is nothing God create that he cannot undo, or annihilate. What we don't know about spiritual reality is a lot, just working from a superficial exegesis of the text annihilation sounds plausible.

It is true that only God hath immortality. This is defined as never-dying.
Yet, devils are demonstrated as existing while spiritually dead.

Adam ate the forbidden fruit after being warned that when he does he will surly die. They ate it and didn't fall over dead but did eventually die, being under a curse. The text in the Hebrew for that could be literally translated, 'dying you shall die', the curse isn't immediate, it's imminent and inevitable. When you came to Christ you were dead in your sins but still walking around and talking and thinking. In order to be, 'in Christ', you had to die to sin and rise to walk as a new creature in Christ. Physically not a lot changed right away, spiritually everything did.


A couple of interesting analogies and a mildly disturbing personal reflection, I will take it at face value. As far as evil, just like darkness is the absence of light evil is the absence of good. Sin isn't just a list of offenses, it is, but it's the absence of what the New Testament calls righteousness. God has two kinds of character qualities, theologians call them communicable and incommunicable. Obviously we can never be omnipotent but we can be righteous through new birth and be the righteousness of God in Christ.

I appreciate your sensibilities on this and welcome your insights, there is nothing about this issue I can say I'm dogmatic about. I just think it's an interesting and responsibly sensible proposition. We will only no for sure on the last day.


The expression 'son of God' is applied to Adam in his genealogy in Luke. There is a reason for that, he had no earthly father he was created. Kings and the High Priest were refereed to as, 'son of God' with respect to authority since only God outranks them.


That's an interesting point, the rich man was tormented by the flames but he wasn't in the lake of fire, he was in hell. Hell and death are cast into the lake of fire at the end of the age. At the end of the age the children of perdition are resurrected. What I think hell is, is a place for disembodied spirits, called sheol in the OT. The Devil and his angels if they are detained, so to speak, it's in the abyss, a similar holding area. Hell is perhaps in the same vicinity as the lake of fire but no one has actually been tossed in yet, the first two to actually be cast in are the Antichrist and the False Prophet who are thrown in bodily. The rich man could feel the flames but we wasn't engulfed by them.


The penalty for debt was prison, the penalty for sin and especially perdition, is death. The second death is a full exacting of the debt and the complete destruction of body and soul. There is no real reason to keep them conscious throughout all eternity, making them suffer yields nothing. Like I said, they don't go into the fires of perdition to suffer, they suffer because they go into the fires of perdition. That's paying the full amount.


Rev. 14:11 says the smoke ascendeth forever, that's not the same thing as suffering forever. As far as the torment of Rev. 20:10 I still think there's enough room in the literal meaning to conclude that the object of their torture continues even if they are annihilated.

It's still an open question in my mind, just think there is a pretty solid alternative view here.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Greg Merrill

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People will either be baptized (immersed) in the Holy Spirit of God (the saved) or in the Lake of Fire (the unsaved.) I get my beliefs from the trustworthiness of the Bible, not from the untrustworthiness of people's experiences, including my own. Yes we can both look at these same verses you have cited, and come up with a different understanding from each other. Satan quoted Scripture to Jesus in Matthew 4:6. Obviously Scripture can be misused and misunderstood.
 
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Greg Merrill

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You say "I'm not entirely sure but annihilation makes sense to me" Verses that come to mind are Proverbs 14:12 and Proverbs 12:15. (I was told you can see these verses if you highlight and click on them.)
 
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mark kennedy

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That's very true, you always go back to the Scriptures. Whatever the case whether annihilation or suffering forever you really should be more focused on how to avoid the fires of perdition then what happens if you are thrown in there.
 
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mark kennedy

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You say "I'm not entirely sure but annihilation makes sense to me" Verses that come to mind are Proverbs 14:12 and Proverbs 12:15. (I was told you can see these verses if you highlight and click on them.)
I had never thought of annihilation, till someone was discussing it in a thread one particular day. I did what I always do and started to collect the related verses and doing some word studies and a little light reading on the subject. What I came up with was a plausible but not provable alternative view, no essential doctrine effected. It's something I will explore from time to time like end time scenarios and various other theological and philosophical questions, nothing more.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Satan is allowed to fool the whole world. Then those children of God who were fooled are tortured for an eternity. If God were really that way then he wouldn't be an example for anyone to follow.
As noted in many of the contents of "your theology" it is easy to fool people.

Not as noted in any of the contents of "your theology" (when you post what you yourself say is "my theology" referring to your theology)
the true believers, the ekklesia, the born again ones, children of YHWH,
are not fooled,
though yes, everyone else remains fooled.

They/we overcome as written by the word of our testimony and by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

Others don't.

So there is good examples ever since JESUS walked on earth born of man, even before HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD,
and every day since then,
even though the good examples are few, on the narrow road to life.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I will preface my thoughts by saying that none of us know what hell will be though the Bible is pretty consistent in warning us we don't want to be there.
The BIBLE is very clear, though there are more myths and fairy tales today than not.
I am pretty sure it is not given to us to know the ways of God and who goes to heaven or hell is His business alone
The BIBLE is very clear, though there are many myths and fairy tales that are popular.
And I am pretty sure that nobody has ever sought God by being told he/she was going to hell.
Many have testified that that is why they sought God.(in the past 75 years and for the past many centuries - find their testimonies in Foxes Book of Martyrs,
for one source.
I believe those in grace will simply seamlessly step from this life into the next and it will be wonderful.
Yes, Good, this is basically what is written clearly in the BIBLE...
Those who don't might just have to live their lives over and over with nothing ever getting better or different--eternal Ground Hog Day.
This is an abomination doctrine/ false and contrary totally to all of YHWH'S WORD/ totally contrary to all of SCRIPTURE.
 
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Greg Merrill

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You might want to consider
Isaiah 66:24; Matthew 5:29,30 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30,46 Mark 3:29; 9:2-48; Jude 6,7; Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10-15; 21:8
I think there is more scripture on eternal suffering of the damned then you may realize.
"dead", "destroy", "perish", "consumed", "burned UP" In the English language are not the same as they are in the languages of the Bible. Physically dead, and spiritually dead are rather different, as is destroyed (annihilated) and destroyed (no longer able to fulfill their intended purpose).
I appreciate you not speaking to me specifically on certain points, and you are right, I do not believe that people that don't believe in eternal suffering or doomed to it because of that belief. I believe some will end up in Heaven that didn't believed they will, and some will end up in hell who didn't believed they would, though that is off the subject of eternal suffering. I like and agree with a lot of what you have said. Differing on this particular eternal suffering doctrine is not something that widely divides us.
 
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Greg Merrill

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Where is the authority of the Scriptures to back up your "opinions"? God didn't create everlasting fire for man, but for the devil and his angels, Mt 25:41. See also John 3:16.
 
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Greg Merrill

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Jesus would never torture someone for an eternity. He taught life or death.
What is your specific Scripture to back this up? I do agree that Jesus would never torture...
This is a fallacy of thinking, that God or Jesus is torturing someone in hell, or blaming God for the eternal suffering. It is not God's fault or desire. It is man and Satan that are to blame, and deserve this, and because of that, in this life are twisting these concepts around to shift the blame from them who deserve it, to God who doesn't.
 
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Greg Merrill

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It is given to us to know the ways of God, that is why the Bible exists. We can know who is going to Heaven or Hell if they answer a few of the right questions and we compared the answers to 1John 5:12,13. "Living live over" is the false teaching of Hinduism, not the true teaching of Christianity.
 
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SarahsKnight

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What "Jesus" are you talking about ?
The one you call "your (own) theology", who won't do what the BIBLE says ?

The Bible says that Jesus will do the torturing? Really? I have somehow missed that all these years after coming to believe and reading the Bible and listening to sermons that include recitation of verses and often denoting said verses' location. One would think by now I would have long heard (and several times) the verse or passage that says or at least strongly hints that my Savior who loved me enough to die for me will also at the same time hate His enemies strongly enough to torture them forever. Interesting .... Guess i was just too naive to see it right there in front of me all these years.
 
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Greg Merrill

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You are right here, but elsewhere you said that you haven't heard of anybody coming to Christ because of fear of Hell. Someone here posted that they did. I personally knew a man that also did, and I have read of many that did. Check out the story off the famous sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." It was given in a monotone, and people were still said to be trembling, and repenting of sin and coming to Jesus to be saved, after hearing about the torments of hell.
 
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Greg Merrill

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John said parish as in "die".
Sorry, but "perish" in Jn 3:16 is referring to them not fulfilling the original purpose of God for them in having eternal fellowship with Him, but of being separted from Him in a Lake of Fire forever.
 
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