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I think the prospect of annihilation, during their temporary judgment in Hades, WILL be a punishment during the many long years of their confinement there.
God said the wicked will be punished according to their works. Depemdo9mng on their sins, some will suffer more and longer than others, that is just. Forever is not.
Everlasting life is the gift of God to the saved, everlasting death is the opposite and is just. What makes you think annihilation is not a punishment?
It is what God said would happen if Adam and Eve sinned.
He did not say if you eat of the tree you will be punished forever.
But, we know that they are in for a surprise. Even though the temporary judgment of Hades, the place of torment, will seem like an eternity--I think "ordinary sinners" like "the rich man" in Luke 16, will have their punishment end in oblivion.
That will be part of the torment of the place of torment--knowing that they could have had eternal life except for their own rebellion.
Deities creating weak, finite children on a world where a high celestial being was allowed to mislead. As punishment they are tortured forever in Hell.
Sometimes I really hate what religion does to otherwise intelligent people.
God said they "would surely die" but He was speaking of their physical forms, their bodies, not their immortal souls.
Because it is human reasoning. Of course no one will ever admit it aloud, but the whole "sins against an infinite God demand therefore infinite conscious punishment" argument is them saying what they think God should do about unbelievers, not what the Bible says He will actually do. The closest thing to infinite conscious punishment - which of course inevitably equates to torture, like it or not - mentioned in Scripture is the verse about the righteous going on to eternal life, but the unrighteous to eternal punishment, in Matthew 25:46. And people somehow weigh this one verse in as undoubtedly meaning eternal conscious torment even in lieu of battalions of verses elsewhere using terms such as "dead", "destroy", "perish", "consumed", "burned UP" (not just burned infinitely somehow without ever actually being killed by the fire so that the victim is alive to feel the pain of being burned by fire forever, but burned UP).
And then I always hear this argument from those who want so badly for eternal conscious torment to be the Biblical truth: "So, what, you annihilationist guys are saying unbelievers get off scott-free by just blinking out of existence instead? Well, that's no punishment! No pain or suffering, nothing? Everyone would just want to live in sin forever instead of believing in Christ if they thought all that awaited for them at the end was non-existence!" And I have all too many rebuttals to that:
First of all, that isn't what most people who take the conditional immortality stance like me even necessarily believe: that it is a painless, just "blinking out of existence". Your life, your soul being blotted out forever, most likely destroyed in literal fire to burn up all last traces of your soul such that even "the memory of you will perish" (sorry, do not remember the verse that quote is found in), doesn't sound like a fun ride to me where it is totally worth it to reject God and Christ in this life in order to so-called live it up in sin, instead.
Second of all, what if it even was just a painless disappearing from existence? What if the punishment for unbelief wasn't as painful as you personally believe it should be? Who would you be to tell God that His enemies deserve to suffer more than that? How God's method of justice should go? The way I have heard some people so stubbornly advocate eternal conscious torment (not saying you are one of them, mind you, Greg), even to the point of condemning me to that very hell of infinite torments for not believing it is the Biblically correct view of what happens to unbelievers, all I can say is thank God He is the ultimate Judge and not you (again, not you specifically Greg, the hypothetical you).
Thirdly, it is practically ridiculous to believe that the view of Hell as eternal torment or literal everlasting destruction will be the make-or-break factor in the situation of an unbeliever coming to Christ. I doubt that most of the people who reject Christ even believe there is a God, Heaven, or Hell in the first place to have the mindset that it is not worth coming to Christ if they could instead just "live in sin" and have fun with that all their lives and the only consequence for it be a literal death, the extinguishing of one's life. They aren't going to believe in any kind of Hell or consequence for sin in the first place, anyway, or that they even have something called sin in their hearts that needs to be forgiven by a God. A Calvinist would tell you that unbelievers are completely unregenerate and reprobate before the moment they believe in Christ, anyway; why would such a person, if not called to believe in Christ, even have the capacity of mind to weigh in on any possible consequence of their sin and unbelief, anyway? So how then could someone who does not yet believe actually look at conditional immortality (less appropriately called "annihilationism") versus eternal conscious torment in hell, and go, hmmm, well, there's no point in accepting this Jesus Christ and being saved, then, because I can go off and have fun living my own life and not receive any real consequence for it in the end.
Fourth, should eternal torment be the motivator for believing in Christ in the first place? What kind of loving relationship with God is that, when you only do so because of fear of Him throwing you into an eternal torture chamber otherwise? Since when is fear the heart of true love?
Fifth and perhaps most importantly, I can give you a specific example of a friend of mine who once gave me the above quoted argument (about how unbelievers are getting off too easy for their sin if all that awaits them as punishment is annihilation) when she tried to convince me away from the conditional immortality stance in favor of taking the traditional eternal torment belief again. She actually said this: "The God I know wouldn't let sinners off so easily." This was coming from someone who had divulged some details of her sordid past before becoming a believer (and I do not doubt her veracity as a believer either despite my disagreeing with her strongly on this one Biblical subject, mind you) to me, which I had absolutely no qualms about still being friends with her in spite of that. They did not shock me one bit to where I would look down on her in any way for them. And yet here she is, now saved and no longer an enemy of God, advocating for a harsher punishment for those who will not be saved and believe, when she was once one of them. How convenient if you ask me. Would she be willing to extend the sinners she spoke of as getting off the hook so easily the same (very little) amount of grace if she were still considered one of them by God? I sincerely doubt it. But apparently Christ-believers who talk like this have no problem saying how eternal conscious torment is the only fitting punishment for unbelievers after the fact; they seem to have forgotten how they themselves were once one of those unbelieving sinners who deserve the "justice" of an eternal hell. But hey, it's okay to say in so many ways how God needs to get those evil little sinners once you have converted and are safely on the other side, right?
One good thing about my finally rejecting this traditional view of hell is how, in the so doing, I find myself just naturally treating other people who do not yet believe with a little more grace. Just like God did - and still does - with me.
I'm leaving it at that.
Just reflecting back to the crowd the general belief of Hell, "love me, or I will torture you for an eternity." No such place exists outside of Westboro Baptist world but sometime it just helps for people to hear what they are saying.Strawman.
You mean, if they held to your cartoon version of the Christian religion above? I should guess so. The thing is, they don't.
Selah.
Well, I don't see good reason for that belief. As I said, a wicked sinner who has lived with his back to God all his life would find the loss of an eternity with the God he despised and disobeyed no loss at all.
The Rich Man in Christ's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man does not pine for Paradise from his place in Hell. His only concern is for his relatives who might end up where he is. He doesn't protest the injustice of his suffering and he doesn't ask if there might be some way he might be reconciled to God and freed of his torment. He gives no hint whatever that he himself desires to be with God in heaven. In this one biblical example, then, your suppositions about what might torment the lost in Hell doesn't seem to hold true.
Selah.
Please state where in Genesis this is stated.
Just reflecting back to the crowd the general belief of Hell, "love me, or I will torture you for an eternity." No such place exists outside of Westboro Baptist world but sometime it just helps for people to hear what they are saying.
Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?
The Bible is clear that iron chariots are more powerful than God, but that doesn't mean its true, it means one group lost a battle and blamed God.Well, I believe in Hell but I am not of the Westboro ilk. Nor do I subscribe to the idea that the biblical doctrine of Hell can be reduced to "love me or I will torture you for an eternity." There is a Hell; the Bible is very plain about this. But people don't end up there because they haven't met some petulant, unwarranted demand for love from their Creator. The Bible is clear about this, too.
Selah.
I say that punishment in Hades is temporary because Hades itself will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire at the Final Judgment. See Revelation 20:14 and check the Greek for the proper understanding. Hades and the Lake of Fire--Gehenna, in Aramaic--are two separate places. Hades was merely "the place of the dead" which was divided into two completely separated areas. There was "Paradise" (also known as "Abraham's Bosom"), Lazarus' abode, and there was "the place of torment" (where the Rich Man was). Christ's telling of the condition of Lazarus and the Rich Man confirms that Hebraic understanding. The confusion comes from our English Bibles translating both "Hades" and "Gehenna" as "hell".
Contrary to what you have said about the Rich Man, he does, at first, ask for Lazarus to be sent with water to ease the Rich Man's suffering (Luke 16:24). In acknowledging "Father Abraham" the Rich Man gives some evidence of the "fear of the Lord" which is the beginning of wisdom.
He was foolish enough to waste his life in the world and eternally. He was anxious that his brothers would avoid the same mistake.
Only the false prophet and the beast are in the lake of fire during the 1000 years and more - till others join them.
God will not destroy the lake of fire - get rid of it - right after the millennium or ever.
great trib over - in the 6th seal
7th trumpet sounds and God's wrath can start
7th seal - vials poured out soon by the returning had trumpets earlier set of seven angels
vials get poured out in full - leads to the battle at the end of Rev. 19.
Three frog evils were sent out doing miracles to deceive the world so they would gather against God.
the beast and false prophet get cast into the lake of fire
Israel returns to her land and dwells safely
there will be a great tumult before swords are beaten into plowshares -and the devil will be bound for 1000 years.
the survivors of the tumult time must come to Jerusalem -year to year to worship the King and they must keep the feast of tabernacles
This is not what the scene is at the end of Isaiah 66, as to if they don't do whatever - they get no rain.
Isaiah 66 is a scene on the new earth that will be according to new moons and sabbath times.
The wicked men that transgressed against God will be viewed by others that are in the flesh -and the ones looking at them will be abhorred.
The wicked men will be as - their worm dieth not.
This goes along with what Jesus talked about in
Mark 9, and won't start until all of the unjust have been raised from the dead and judged.
Jesus Christ placed the worm dieth not time as being when even the wicked from His day will end up in the fire that shall not be quenched.
It is not unburied dead people being looked at from Armageddon's time, as how do you explain the fire part?
and all of the wickeds must be raised and put it in first
The lake of fire is not going away. Daniel 12:2 shows the wicked rise to what? shame/rebuke/reproach/worm?
and everlasting contempt/abhorred forever.
Just like at the end of Isaiah 66 - the wicked men are being - abhorred. It is happening on the new earth.
Rev. shows the wicked will be outside of the holy city.
I think this is stretching a bit.
Why?
But he was not, as I said, eager to be with God. No such sentiment passed his lips.
The fact that he was lamenting tells us that he realized how foolish he had been and hoped for better for his brothers. Most people, even believers, are not aware that God is the ONLY source of life in the universe. I think it likely that those who are in the place of torment have a heightened awareness of what constitutes life and what constitutes death.
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