The End of Days

[SabbathBlessings]

If you simply went with the context of the verse, you would know what Jesus meant. You do not need to search dictionaries, you do not need to go to Genesis nor to Exodus.

The context was "why do your disciples do what is not allowed on sabbath". Translating his answer like "Because sabbath was made for all human race" makes no sense.

You understand this verse the way the Pharisees told it, not what Jesus was teaching.

 

[Clare73]

In being the operative word and one who does not do as he says cannot be his disciple as he says.

One can be a "disciple" without being born again.

 

[daq]

No, I am not.

I firmly believe that it is the scripture that was posted which you do not understand.

 

[daq]

One can be a "disciple" without being born again.

That was supposed to be a hint.

In the following passages, "life" = G5590 ψυχη (psuche, soul).

Luke 14:26-27 KJV
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life [G5590 ψυχη] also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 9:23-24
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life [G5590 ψυχη] shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life [G5590 ψυχη] for my sake, the same shall save it.

 

[Clare73]

That was supposed to be a hint.

Did mine not address the hint?

Hints necessarily require assumptions. . .which can work to deviate from the text.

In the following passages, "life" = G5590 ψυχη (psuche, soul).
Luke 14:26-27 KJV
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life [G5590 ψυχη] also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 9:23-24
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life [G5590 ψυχη] shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life [G5590 ψυχη] for my sake, the same shall save it.

Where psuche is the individual living being, and zoe is the life of that being (Jn 10:10-11).

 

[daq]

Psalms 8:3-9 KJV
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? [Heb 2:6]
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. [Heb 2:7]
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: [Gen 1:26-28, 1 Cor 15:25-27, Heb 2:8]
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; [Gen 1:26-28]
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. [Gen 1:26-28]
9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Therefore, again, (Mark 2:27-28), the Son of Man is also Master of the Shabbat.

Matthew 11:13​

 

[trophy33]

You understand this verse the way the Pharisees told it, not what Jesus was teaching.

Feel free to demonstrate how your private dictionary translation makes logical sense as an answer to the question in the surrounding context. And do not forget to explain how "Therefore/So the Son of the human race is Lord even of the sabbath" logically follows from the sentence before it.

Here is the context with your translation:

One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for the human race, not the human race for the Sabbath. So the Son of the human race is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

 

[daq]

Feel free to demonstrate how your private dictionary translation makes logical sense as an answer to the question in the surrounding context. And do not forget to explain how "Therefore/So the Son of the human race is Lord even of the sabbath" logically follows from the sentence before it.

Here is the context with your translation:

One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for the human race, not the human race for the Sabbath. So the Son of the human race is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

If you look closely at my previous post, right above this your post, it is clear that Psa 8 speaks of Gen 1:26-28 and calls that one the Son of Man: for all things were placed in subjection under his feet in Gen 1:26-28, and this not said of the first man who was formed in Gen 2:7, ("the adam", not a proper noun because he is not yet named, (see Gen 5:1-2)). The first man was formed of dust from the adamah-soil in Gen 2:7, and that one is of the soil, earthy, natural, (1Cor 15:47), the second man is out of heaven, (1Cor 15:47, Gen 1:26-28), and is called the Son of Man in Psa 8:4.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus is our Sabbath in the NT

Do you have a "Jesus is our Sabbath" text?? OR are you offering yourself as the "source" for that idea?

 

[BobRyan]

Do you realize, though, that none of the verses you use support the SDA teaching - that the Sabbath is given after Christ to Christians to keep as a literal day of rest.

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" Paul was preaching the Gospel to gentiles and Jews.
Acts 13 - Gentiles ask Paul for "more gospel preaching" to be scheduled for them "the NEXT Sabbath"
Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

... you mean "THAT" - SDA teaching?

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith (sectn 19) and the "Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19" - affirm the TEN commandments as being included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant. Are they all "SDA" in your post????

 

[BobRyan]

The following translations are about as close to literal as one can get. The only problem I have is that the masculine plural form for days, yamim, could be a proper noun: in other words emphatic, which could be the reason why the definite article is not attached, (Hebrew proper nouns are already emphatic and do not allow the definite article).

Genesis 4:3 YLT
3 And it cometh to pass at the end of days [yamim] that Cain bringeth from the fruit of the ground a present to Jehovah;

Genesis 4:3 SLT
3 And it shall be at the end of days, [yamim] and Cain shall bring in from the fruit of the earth an offering to Jehovah.

Genesis 4:3 LSV
3 And it comes to pass at the end of days [yamim] that Cain brings from the fruit of the ground a present to YHWH;

The reason I say, and believe, that Yamim is a proper noun here is because of the opening creation account, wherein the gathering of the waters are also called Yamim, surely a proper noun because that is the name Elohim gave them, (Gen 1:10 "Seas" = Yamim), and the plural of yam, (sea), which is this word yamim, is the same as the masculine plural form for days, yamim.

I have to admit - I don't think I understand your point, nor do I see why the people here who oppose the Sabbath should have an argument against your point.

The translations I am reading do not seem to require that the Gen 4:3 event be on a Sabbath - but they don't oppose it either given that a thank offering is allowed on Sabbath. However it looks like this is supposed to be a sin offering from the way Able's Sin offering is accepted but grain/harvest offering to Cain is not. Even so - sin offerings could be done on any day - including the Sabbath.

Genesis 4:3 — The New International Version (NIV)
3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — English Standard Version (ESV)
3 In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground,

Genesis 4:3 — King James Version (KJV 1900)
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — The New King James Version (NKJV)
3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — New Century Version (NCV)
3 Later, Cain brought some food from the ground as a gift to God.

Genesis 4:3 — American Standard Version (ASV)
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto Jehovah.

Genesis 4:3 — 1890 Darby Bible (DARBY)
3 And in process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering to Jehovah.

Genesis 4:3 — GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
3 Later Cain brought some crops from the land as an offering to the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — The Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
3 In the course of time Cain presented some of the land’s produce as an offering to the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
3 In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground,

Genesis 4:3 — The Lexham English Bible (LEB)
3 And in the course of time Cain brought an offering from the fruit of the ground to Yahweh,

Genesis 4:3 — New International Reader’s Version (1998) (NIrV)
3 After some time, Cain gathered some of the things he had grown. He brought them as an offering to the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (NASB95)
3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord of the fruit of the ground.


-- here in the NLT they seem to argue for a thank offering, a grain offering ...
Genesis 4:3 — New Living Translation (NLT)
3 When it was time for the harvest, Cain presented some of his crops as a gift to the Lord.

Why is the above important to this discussion? That is because in six yamim YHWH made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and He rested the seventh yom: wherefore YHWH blessed the yom of the Shabbat, and hallowed it.

Ok but why would that be an issue unless there was a text that said that either a sin offering or a grain offering could only happen on a weekly Sabbath - and thereby making the reader suppose that this is a weekly Sabbath.

Thus the six yamim are the Yamim of creation and the seventh yom is the Shabbat.

In Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days [yamim] shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days [yamim] the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Certainly that is true - but it would be true no matter which day of the week it is in Gen 4:3 from what I am reading.

Genesis 4:3
3 And it comes to pass at the end of [the] Yamim that Cain brings from the fruit of the ground an offering unto YHWH:

So it is not "the end of days", (like as if the end of the world)

I agree - it is not saying "at the end of the world".

Cain and Abel are bringing their offerings either right before the Shabbat or in the Shabbat, and thus,

they are observing the Shabbat of creation at the end of the six yamim.

Cain and Abel are observing the Shabbat of creation in this passage.

Are you saying they 'could be' doing that - or that the text specifically is speaking of Shabbat??

And the Shabbat will be observed until the end of days.

Agreed.

 

[daq]

I have to admit - I don't think I understand your point, nor do I see why the people here who oppose the Sabbath should have an argument against your point.

The translations I am reading do not seem to require that the Gen 4:3 event be on a Sabbath - but they don't oppose it either given that a thank offering is allowed on Sabbath. However it looks like this is supposed to be a sin offering from the way Able's Sin offering is accepted but grain/harvest offering to Cain is not. Even so - sin offerings could be done on any day - including the Sabbath.

Genesis 4:3 — The New International Version (NIV)
3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — English Standard Version (ESV)
3 In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground,

Genesis 4:3 — King James Version (KJV 1900)
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — The New King James Version (NKJV)
3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — New Century Version (NCV)
3 Later, Cain brought some food from the ground as a gift to God.

Genesis 4:3 — American Standard Version (ASV)
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto Jehovah.

Genesis 4:3 — 1890 Darby Bible (DARBY)
3 And in process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering to Jehovah.

Genesis 4:3 — GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
3 Later Cain brought some crops from the land as an offering to the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — The Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
3 In the course of time Cain presented some of the land’s produce as an offering to the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
3 In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground,

Genesis 4:3 — The Lexham English Bible (LEB)
3 And in the course of time Cain brought an offering from the fruit of the ground to Yahweh,

Genesis 4:3 — New International Reader’s Version (1998) (NIrV)
3 After some time, Cain gathered some of the things he had grown. He brought them as an offering to the Lord.

Genesis 4:3 — New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (NASB95)
3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord of the fruit of the ground.


-- here in the NLT they seem to argue for a thank offering, a grain offering ...
Genesis 4:3 — New Living Translation (NLT)
3 When it was time for the harvest, Cain presented some of his crops as a gift to the Lord.


Ok but why would that be an issue unless there was a text that said that either a sin offering or a grain offering could only happen on a weekly Sabbath - and thereby making the reader suppose that this is a weekly Sabbath.

Certainly that is true - but it would be true no matter which day of the week it is in Gen 4:3 from what I am reading.

I agree - it is not saying "at the end of the world".




Are you saying they 'could be' doing that - or that the text specifically is speaking of Shabbat??


Agreed.

I will insert the Hebrew terms in transliteration, (Yamim), and I read it like so:

Genesis 4:3
3 And it came to be at the end of the Yamim, and Cain brought of the fruit of the soil a oblation unto YHWH.

So then, in the above, if we read Yamim as a proper noun, it is customary to capitalize Yamim and add the definite article in English. However when it comes to the Exodus passage which I quoted we need not see it as the proper noun because it specifically states how many yamim in which the heavens and the earth were created, (in six yamim).

Exodus 20:11
11 For in six yamim YHWH made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh yom: therefore YHWH blessed the Yom of the Shabbat, and hallowed it.

See it now? The end of the Yamim is either the very end of the sixth yom-day or the opening of the seventh because in six yamim the heavens and the earth were created, and thus, "the end of the Yamim" is the end of the sixth yom-day.

Thus it is very possible that "the Yamim", (proper noun), are six, that is, the six yamim of creation: everything created and made in the first chapter of Genesis. And if this be true then "the end of the Yamim" is the end of the six yamim of creation, or immediately following that, the opening of the Shabbat.

And if these things be true then Cain and Habel brought their offerings either at the very tail-end of the sixth day or they brought them somewhere early in the beginning or opening of the seventh day, the Shabbat.

I don't know that this can be proven beyond doubt but this is how I understand it for now.

 

[trophy33]

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" Paul was preaching the Gospel to gentiles and Jews.
Acts 13 - Gentiles ask Paul for "more gospel preaching" to be scheduled for them "the NEXT Sabbath"
Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

... you mean "THAT" - SDA teaching?

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith (sectn 19) and the "Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19" - affirm the TEN commandments as being included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant. Are they all "SDA" in your post????

Yes, its the SDA teaching, because the SDA interprets it as keeping, while the text in Acts is about preaching.

Isaiah uses a prophetical, metaphorical language. We know from the New Testament that both new moons and sabbaths were just shadows:
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Col 2:16-23

You cherrypick one baptist confession that has seemingly one thing with the SDA in common and present it like you were basically the same church. Baptists do not accept Ellen White as being a true prophet and do not agree with any of your specific interpretations or life rules.

 

[Clare73]

Do you have a "Jesus is our Sabbath" text?? OR are you offering yourself as the "source" for that idea?

Do you have a "God is Trinity" text?

Do you have a "God is sovereign" text? OR are you doing the same?

I have Heb 3:7-4:11.

 

[BobRyan]

Clare73 said:
Jesus is our Sabbath in the NT

Do you have a "Jesus is our Sabbath" text?? OR are you offering yourself as the "source" for that idea?

Do you have a "God is Trinity" text?

Do you have a "God is sovereign" text?

I assume this is your way of saying you have no such text.

I have Heb 3:7-4:11.

We have you not quoting Heb 3:7-4:11 at any point saying something like "Jesus is our Sabbath"

 

[trophy33]

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."
Mt 11:28

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" Paul was preaching the Gospel to gentiles and Jews.
Acts 13 - Gentiles ask Paul for "more gospel preaching" to be scheduled for them "the NEXT Sabbath"
Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

... you mean "THAT" - SDA teaching?

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith (sectn 19) and the "Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19" - affirm the TEN commandments as being included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant. Are they all "SDA" in your post????

Yes, its the SDA teaching

Well guess we do agree on something after all.

, because the SDA interprets it as keeping, while the text in Acts is about preaching.

Preaching the Gospel "every Sabbath" in the Synagogue - reaching both gentiles and Jews --

That means they were "in a worship service" every Sabbath - and engaged in gospel preaching to both gentiles and Jews.

So then -- I suppose you have no "they were preaching the gospel in a worship service every week-day-1 - preaching to both gentiles and Jews" text to go with it - or you would have posted it by now.

Shall I add that one to the OP? Do you think that contrast would help the readers?

Isaiah uses a prophetical, metaphorical language.

No OT scholar today says that the phrase "from Sabbath to Sabbath" as used in the OT - was taken to mean something not at all literal by the contemporary readers - and my guess is that you and I both know it.

 

[BobRyan]

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."
Mt 11:28

But not "I will be your Sabbath"
And of course Matt 11 was not a change after the cross -- it is the fact of the Gospel as it was before the cross -- unchanged from today, since there is only one gospel.

 

[trophy33]

But not "I will be your Sabbath"
And of course Matt 11 was not a change after the cross -- it is the fact of the Gospel as it was before the cross -- unchanged from today, since there is only one gospel.

Sabbath was about rest.

Jesus gave us rest.

 

[BobRyan]

You cherrypick one baptist confession that has seemingly one thing with the SDA in common

Actually I very specifically point to the ENTIRE section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith (as well as that same section in the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19) since you make sweeping statements that no one believes such things.

Baptists do not accept Ellen White

The fact that Baptists eat breakfast and Adventists eat breakfast is not a claim that all baptists are adventists. Still it is true that both eat breakfast.

One thing not negating the other. So since I never make such claims - you might want to find a compelling argument to support your position where you directly contradict statements found there in their own confession of faith.