The Elect.

[William II]

How do you guys in this sub-forum feel about it? I don't particularly like the idea, as I feel it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there are a significant number of people who do.

So what do you folks think? Is salvation predetermined?

 

[gav1nzdad]

How do you guys in this sub-forum feel about it? I don't particularly like the idea, as I feel it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there are a significant number of people who do.

So what do you folks think? Is salvation predetermined?

Good topic, I don't have an answer as yet. But I will be watching for what others think too.

First thing that came to mind was,

"Ohh, what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?"

 

[William II]

Do you guys know nothing about this? I was seriously hoping to hear a few different points of view.

 

[watchman333]

Of course God has His elect, and they have been used throughout the centuries to keep the Word of God moving forward. I would refer you to scriptures such as: Ephesians 1.11, Romans 8.33, Daniel 11.32,Mark 13.9, Mark 13.19, Ephesians 1.4, Romans 8.28, Jeremiah 1.4. There are many more but that should get you going. Try this, Many be called, but few chosen. Chosen here means Eklectos in the Greek, which is to say, the elect. The Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel. Rebekah conceived the twins, Jacob and Esau, CHOSEN to bring forth 2 nations central to these end times. I hope that helps some. Bless the LORD.

 

[desmalia]

Which is sovereign? The free will of humanity or the will of the Creator of the universe?

 

[ptomwebster]

Which is sovereign? The free will of humanity or the will of the Creator of the universe?

You are kidding right?

 

[miamited]

hi William,

Yes, the way of salvation was determined in eternity past. No, the individuals who would walk in that way has yet to be completed.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

hi desmalia,

You asked: Which is sovereign? The free will of humanity or the will of the Creator of the universe?

Well, let's look at some passages of Scripture:
This is good, and pleaseshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/1-timothy/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-4 God our Savior, who wantshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/1-timothy/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-6 all menhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/1-timothy/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-7 to be savedhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/1-timothy/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-8 and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Both of these speak to us of God's will. The first says that it is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of truth and be saved. The second tells us that we are children of God only if we do His will.

If it is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and are saved, then why won't all be saved?

If only those who do God's will are His children, and as you claim God's will is sovereign in the lives of men, then how are there people on the earth that won't be saved?

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

 

[seeingeyes]

hi desmalia,

You asked: Which is sovereign? The free will of humanity or the will of the Creator of the universe?

Well, let's look at some passages of Scripture:
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Both of these speak to us of God's will. The first says that it is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of truth and be saved. The second tells us that we are children of God only if we do His will.

If it is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and are saved, then why won't all be saved?

If only those who do God's will are His children, and as you claim God's will is sovereign in the lives of men, then how are there people on the earth that won't be saved?

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

If it is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of truth and be saved-

And If the children of God do His will-

Then the children of God also will that all should be saved-

...right?

 

[desmalia]

You are kidding right?

It may seem like it, but no. It's a question that all believers need to honestly wrestle with. In our fallen human natures we are so prone to think our will is so much more powerful than it really is. And the fallen human nature balks at the idea that God would direct or steer our lives for His purpose, not ours. (Yet He does, and we see it all through the Scriptures). Further, it's really easy to say "I believe X", but how we really work it out logically and live accordingly can be the opposite of what we think or say we believe.

hi desmalia,

You asked: Which is sovereign? The free will of humanity or the will of the Creator of the universe?

Well, let's look at some passages of Scripture:
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Both of these speak to us of God's will. The first says that it is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of truth and be saved. The second tells us that we are children of God only if we do His will.

If it is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and are saved, then why won't all be saved?

If only those who do God's will are His children, and as you claim God's will is sovereign in the lives of men, then how are there people on the earth that won't be saved?

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

So, are you saying God is not sovereign?

 

[miamited]

hi seeingeyes,

You asked: If it is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of truth and be saved-

And If the children of God do His will-

Then the children of God also will that all should be saved-

...right?

Well, do you and will you accomplish your will?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

hi desmalia,

You asked: So, are you saying God is not sovereign?
__________________
Oh, absolutely! God is sovereign. However, I think we may need to decide before we go any further what that means.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[seeingeyes]

hi seeingeyes,

You asked: If it is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of truth and be saved-

And If the children of God do His will-

Then the children of God also will that all should be saved-

...right?

Well, do you and will you accomplish your will?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

If I were sovereign above all things in heaven and earth and under the earth, then yer darn tootin' that I would accomplish my will.

 

[seeingeyes]

This is actually part of a bigger argument of free will versus determinism. Even to atheists, modern philosophers, scientists, and so on, this debate comes up all the time. It's called compatibilism, whether or not free will and determinism are compatible or not.

Determinism would mean action has its antecedent causes, physical, psychological, and so on, traceable, ultimately, back to God's omniscience. Libertarian free will means that we add something, a choice, to our actions.

The trouble comes when you think of free will as a branching path, as though you could have different outcomes from the exact same point in time. If you see it that way, then there is the big fight between determinism and libertarian free will, mirrored in the fight between Calvinism and Arminianism.

The problem is that most modern philosophers, even theistic, believe that libertarian free will is incoherent, and this dichotomy is false. Let's take it this way, if we imagine a young woman picking between two jobs, one in Boston and one in Dallas, we imagine she picks Boston for a variety of good reasons, family, money, interest, and so on. If she has reasons or determinants for her behavior, then it is hard to see how she would make a different choice in that situation unless something were different, her psychology, the situation, whatever. So we see the stronger the choice, the more determined it is. If we just say randomness occurs there to cause a random outcome, that hardly then makes the girl an agent of rational choice, but a random number generator instead.

The problem is the battle between Arminianism and Calvinism is illogical, archaic and illusory based on a primitive, non-sensical understanding of free will as incompatible with determinism. As the great Spurgeon pointed out, neither is biblical or sane, and the compatibilist solution of the Bible as a both/and solution holds.

Or in other words, we are destined to believe we have free will.

 

[miamited]

hi seeingeyes,

You responded: If I were sovereign above all things in heaven and earth and under the earth, then yer darn tootin' that I would accomplish my will.

Is it God's will that men love Him?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[seeingeyes]

hi seeingeyes,

You responded: If I were sovereign above all things in heaven and earth and under the earth, then yer darn tootin' that I would accomplish my will.

Is it God's will that men love Him?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Got a verse for that?

 

[Proverb2717]

How do you guys in this sub-forum feel about it? I don't particularly like the idea, as I feel it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there are a significant number of people who do.

So what do you folks think? Is salvation predetermined?

Predestination of anything, including salvation, is not linear.

Meaning, your predestination of an event is only based on time.

Meaning, God's will being that all mankind is saved based on an infinite timeline. Unfortunately the life of humans is not infinite, thus your predestination is determined by choices made on a linear timeline.

It's like comparing apples to oranges, really.

To put it simply: God predestined all people to recieve salvation on an infinite timeline, but humans only have a limited amount of time to reach that conclusion.

 

[tankerG]

Predestination of anything, including salvation, is not linear.

Meaning, your predestination of an event is only based on time.

Meaning, God's will being that all mankind is saved based on an infinite timeline. Unfortunately the life of humans is not infinite, thus your predestination is determined by choices made on a linear timeline.

It's like comparing apples to oranges, really.

To put it simply: God predestined all people to recieve salvation on an infinite timeline, but humans only have a limited amount of time to reach that conclusion.

And I like apples! Oops - the Minute Maid people are going to be mad at me!

 

[golgotha61]

How do you guys in this sub-forum feel about it? I don't particularly like the idea, as I feel it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there are a significant number of people who do.

So what do you folks think? Is salvation predetermined?

The question concerning election is not whether or not one understands it but whether or not the Bible teaches it. If, indeed, the Bible teaches election (or any other doctrine), then one is obligated to believe it. The doctrine of election includes a number of areas: Israel is elect (Deut. 7:6); angels are elect (1 Tim. 5:21); the Levitical priests were elect (Deut. 18:5); Jeremiah the prophet was elect (Jer. 1:5); and believers are elect (Eph. 1:4).

Election may be defined as “that eternal act of God whereby He, in His sovereign good pleasure, and on account of no foreseen merit in them, chooses a certain number of men to be the recipients of special grace and of eternal salvation.”

The Moody Handbook of Theology.

 

[tankerG]

The problem I have always had with the "elect" crowd is that, since believers are elected to salvation, that then means that unbelievers are elected to hell. I inform them that the former is in Scripture - the latter is not. So, they can be dogmatic on the former, but they can't be so on the latter. They then say, if I was a "5-pointer", I'd understand.