The Elect?

[Dream]

I'm confused about the whole idea of "the elect." Do you believe that you are part God's elect group? If so, then why? Is there a way of knowing who is part of the elect and who is not?

 

[wsgm]

I'm confused about the whole idea of "the elect." Do you believe that you are part God's elect group? If so, then why?

Yes, I believe that I am part of God's elect. I am not sure if you are asking why I am elect or why I believe I am elect, but I will try to answer both questions. I am elect because God chose me according to His own good pleasure. I believe that I am elect because God saved me, and I am confident of His salvation of me.

Is there a way of knowing who is part of the elect and who is not?

The only way to know if a person is elect is by their salvation (which is basically impossible to know with 100% confidence about another person, but one can be confident of another's salvation as evidence is seen through the years). The only way to know that someone is not elect is that they die without being saved.

The elect fall into three categories:
E1. Those who have died in Christ and are awaiting the resurrection.
E2. Those who are living in Christ.
E3. Those who are not yet believers but who will believe before they die.

The non-elect fall into two categories:
N1. Those who have died in unbelief.
N2. Those who are still alive but who will die in unbelief.

As human beings, we have no way to distinguish groups E3 and N2, and it is not our place to guess whom God has sovereignly chosen. As believers, we are called to obediently preach the gospel to all whom do not currently believe.

 

[cygnusx1]

I'm confused about the whole idea of "the elect." Do you believe that you are part God's elect group? If so, then why? Is there a way of knowing who is part of the elect and who is not?

Hi there DreamTheater (cool name ) ....

a careful read of the scriptures shows election almost everywhere ....... by this I mean God favouring one as opposed to another , say compare , Abel and Cain , Jacob and Esau , Isaac and Ishmael , David and Saul , Peter and Judas , etc etc .........
now the natural mind with it's natural thoughts will presume and assume election based upon good or bad done in the persons elect or not elect , meaning God shows favour on the more deserving and withdraws His favour from the least deserving ..... but this is not what God's word informs us.
On the contrary , we are told election is according to God's will and is done without due consideration of anything good or bad in the individuals who are chosen for God's Blessings.
If it were otherwise men would be boasting about their just deserts .
Instead election properly understood better make you and I blush , for we have and we had nothing to commend us to God , there was absolutely nothing in us that made God favour us ........ NOTHING .

 

[Dream]

Yes, I believe that I am part of God's elect. I am not sure if you are asking why I am elect or why I believe I am elect, but I will try to answer both questions. I am elect because God chose me according to His own good pleasure. I believe that I am elect because God saved me, and I am confident of His salvation of me.

The only way to know if a person is elect is by their salvation (which is basically impossible to know with 100% confidence about another person, but one can be confident of another's salvation as evidence is seen through the years). The only way to know that someone is not elect is that they die without being saved.

The elect fall into three categories:
E1. Those who have died in Christ and are awaiting the resurrection.
E2. Those who are living in Christ.
E3. Those who are not yet believers but who will believe before they die.

The non-elect fall into two categories:
N1. Those who have died in unbelief.
N2. Those who are still alive but who will die in unbelief.

As human beings, we have no way to distinguish groups E3 and N2, and it is not our place to guess whom God has sovereignly chosen. As believers, we are called to obediently preach the gospel to all whom do not currently believe.

Okay, so are you saying that those who believe in Jesus Christ or will believe in Jesus Christ in the future are the elect and nobody else is part of the elect? Does this mean that every Christian or future Christian is part of the elect?

Also, does this mean that a great Islamic person who never learns of Christianity because he never had the opportunity would not make it into Heaven because he is simply not part of God's elect group?

 

[Dream]

Hi there DreamTheater (cool name ) ....

a careful read of the scriptures shows election almost everywhere ....... by this I mean God favouring one as opposed to another , say compare , Abel and Cain , Jacob and Esau , Isaac and Ishmael , David and Saul , Peter and Judas , etc etc .........
now the natural mind with it's natural thoughts will presume and assume election based upon good or bad done in the persons elect or not elect , meaning God shows favour on the more deserving and withdraws His favour from the least deserving ..... but this is not what God's word informs us.
On the contrary , we are told election is according to God's will and is done without due consideration of anything good or bad in the individuals who are chosen for God's Blessings.
If it were otherwise men would be boasting about their just deserts .
Instead election properly understood better make you and I blush , for we have and we had nothing to commend us to God , there was absolutely nothing in us that made God favour us ........ NOTHING .

Then does man have any control over his destiny? Can you ever hold man accountable for his actions if everything he does is simply part of God's will?

 

[wsgm]

Okay, so are you saying that those who believe in Jesus Christ or will believe in Jesus Christ in the future are the elect and nobody else is part of the elect? Does this mean that every Christian or future Christian is part of the elect?

Yes and yes. The elect are God's chosen people - the people He has chosen (elected) to save. Romans 8:30 says, "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." This is saying that everyone He has chosen/elected/predestined will be called, saved, and glorified. So only those who have been saved or who will be saved are part of the elect. Otherwise, there would be elect people in hell, which Rom 8:30 disproves.

Also, does this mean that a great Islamic person who never learns of Christianity because he never had the opportunity would not make it into Heaven because he is simply not part of God's elect group?

I wouldn't say that exactly. First off, according to God's standard of perfection, there are no great Islamic people, there are no great people of any sort (other than Jesus, of course). Everyone is sinful and justly deserves the punishment for that sin, hell. So whether or not a person hears the gospel, if he goes to hell it is because he is a sinner and deserves it. The only reason people do go to heaven is that God saves them from hell because Christ has taken the penalty for their sins and gives them His perfect record.

Who saves? God. We cannot and do not save ourselves. Whom does God save? Those He has chosen to save. What was the basis of His choice? His own good pleasure. It has nothing to do with the people He chooses. Is this fair? No. The only "fair" thing to do would be to give everyone exactly what they deserve - eternity in hell. It is only grace that God saves anyone, and it is only by grace that anyone is saved. It has nothing to do with that person.

Back to your question: Does this Muslim (or anyone) go to hell because God didn't pick him? Sort of, but that's a backwards way of looking at it. More accurately, he goes to hell because he is a sinner and deserves it, and people are saved because God does pick them.

What if he had heard about Christianity? Would he have believed? No. Man in his fallen state is an enemy of God (Rom 5:10) and hates God (Rom 1:30) and is actually dead in sin (Eph 2:1). Fallen men suppress the truth they do have (Rom 1:18-23). Men can only believe if God gives them the ability to do so. But would God have given this man the ability? No. We already said God did not choose to save him. The hypothetical situation was that he was not elect.

 

[Dream]

What was the basis of His choice? His own good pleasure. It has nothing to do with the people He chooses.

I'm not sure what is meant by this.

Back to your question: Does this Muslim (or anyone) go to hell because God didn't pick him? Sort of, but that's a backwards way of looking at it. More accurately, he goes to hell because he is a sinner and deserves it, and people are saved because God does pick them.

But how can he really deserve to go to hell if God had predestined him to sin?

What if he had heard about Christianity? Would he have believed? No. Man in his fallen state is an enemy of God (Rom 5:10) and hates God (Rom 1:30) and is actually dead in sin (Eph 2:1). Fallen men suppress the truth they do have (Rom 1:18-23). Men can only believe if God gives them the ability to do so. But would God have given this man the ability? No. We already said God did not choose to save him. The hypothetical situation was that he was not elect.

Wow. This certaintly would defeat the purpose of missionary work knowing that Islamics would not believe in Christ because they are predestined to go to hell.

 

[wsgm]

I'm not sure what is meant by this.

I am trying to say that God does not choose a person on the basis of anything about that person or on the basis of anything that he has done or will do. His choice is unconditional. God chooses those He wants to choose because He wants to choose them. It pleases Him to do so.

But how can he really deserve to go to hell if God had predestined him to sin?

I never said God predestined him to sin. Romans 3:23 says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 6:23a says, "For the wages of sin is death." Everyone sins. Sin deserves death. Therefore, everyone deserves death. This death is more than physical death at the end of life. It is eternal death (hell) because it is contrasted with eternal life in Romans 6:23b. So the Bible says he really deserves to go to hell. Man is responsible for his sin.

Wow. This certaintly would defeat the purpose of missionary work knowing that Islamics would not believe in Christ because they are predestined to go to hell.

Not at all. You said our hypothetical person wasn't elect, and I was simply looking at that case. I never said no one who practices Islam is elect. (Also, I never said anything about a predestination to sin or hell. You are putting words in my mouth there.) There are people who are now Islamic but who are elect, and these people will come to Christ before they die. The purpose of missionary work is finding the elect among every tongue, tribe, and nation. We don't know who they are, so we preach the gospel to everyone in the hope that they will believe, as I said in my first post. Election is what gives us hope and confidence in missions work, because we know that God has His chosen people in the world who will come when He calls them, and He has chosen us to be the agent of that calling. Also, He commanded us to spread the gospel. Even if we knew that no one would believe, His command should be enough. Ezekiel was told to prophesy even though no one would believe him, and he did it.

 

[cygnusx1]

Then does man have any control over his destiny? Can you ever hold man accountable for his actions if everything he does is simply part of God's will?

God's power is beyond normal bounds , consider a quick thinking fast talking Lawyer who has a track record of getting serious criminals off the hook , justice is seldom done perfectly down here on earth .
But God will in no wise clear the guilty , He will not be swayed by pity and words of 'dimished responsibility' for He knows exactly what each and everyone of us has done , and God will Judge everyone under the Full weight of His Law . For Christians this has already taken place , that is why it is utterly foolish to desire to be back under that Law.

When God holds man accountable it is in connection to the Law , the same Law that we find written in the Ten Commandments .
God does not condemn the part a man plays as part of God's plan for that is largely unknown to Him and it is not the place where he is morally judged.
Consider , God could have let the Romans just have Jesus , but God planned Judas to be the one who handed Him over ... (it may have been a nessasary part of Christs sufferings to be betrayed , which is after all the essence of sin)
But Judas is condemned not for playing a part in God's decree but for loving money enough to betray innocent blood , even the blood of God's Son!

 

[Dream]

(Also, I never said anything about a predestination to sin or hell. You are putting words in my mouth there.)

I think this is where I have the most confusion with the idea of the elect. I always just assumed that the elect and predestination went hand in hand.

 

[orthedoxy]

Is God fair from man point of view?

 

[wsgm]

I think this is where I have the most confusion with the idea of the elect. I always just assumed that the elect and predestination went hand in hand.

They do. The elect are those whom God has predestined to salvation. What exactly are you confused about? When I say election, predestination, or choosing, I am talking about God choosing His people that He will save. It is as though He is the govenor who goes to death row where there are great numbers of justly condemned murderer who hate Him and are waiting to die, and He selects some to pardon and make His family.

 

[JM]

I'm confused about the whole idea of "the elect." Do you believe that you are part God's elect group? If so, then why? Is there a way of knowing who is part of the elect and who is not?

"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God."[size=-1]-1 Thessalonians 1:4
[/size]
[size=-1]I believe we can know if we are elected.[/size]

"Many persons want to know their election before they look to Christ, but they cannot learn it thus, it is only to be discovered by "looking unto Jesus." If you desire to ascertain your own election;-after the following manner, shall you assure your heart before God. Do you feel yourself to be a lost, guilty sinner? go straightway to the cross of Christ, and tell Jesus so, and tell Him that you have read in the Bible, "Him that cometh unto me, I will in no wise cast out." Tell Him that He has said, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." Look to Jesus and believe on Him, and you shall make proof of your election directly, for so surely as thou believest, thou art elect. If you will give yourself wholly up to Christ and trust Him, then you are one of God's chosen ones; but if you stop and say, "I want to know first whether I am elect," you ask you know not what. Go to Jesus, be you never so guilty, just as you are. Leave all curious inquiry about election alone. Go straight to Christ and hide in His wounds, and you shall know your election. The assurance of the Holy Spirit shall be given to you, so that you shall be able to say, "I know whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed to Him." Christ was at the everlasting council: He can tell you whether you were chosen or not; but you cannot find it out in any other way. Go and put your trust in Him, and His answer will be-"I have loved thee with an everlasting love, therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." There will be no doubt about His having chosen you, when you have chosen Him."


"You tell me, if God has chosen some men to eternal life, that he has been unjust. I ask you to prove it. The burden of the proof lies with you. For I would have you remember that none merited this at all. Is there one man in the whole world who would have the impertinence to say that he merits anything of his Maker?" C. H. Spurgeon

 

[JM]

Is God fair from man point of view?

Potter's Freedom! Rom. 9

 

[cygnusx1]

Is God fair from man point of view?

If God were fair , all would be lost , everyone would go to hell and none would be saved .

Notice some are so incensed that God can save who He wants , Bless who He wants and show Mercy to who He wants that it makes them angry and reject God altogether .... like "if God doesn't act like I think He should act I will not accept Him"
"if God doesn't treat people on the grounds of perfect equality , then I am content to see all damned"

a very selfish thought process indeed yet sadly I have seen it many times.

 

[larryjf]

I'm confused about the whole idea of "the elect." Do you believe that you are part God's elect group? If so, then why? Is there a way of knowing who is part of the elect and who is not?

On election...

Eph 1:4-6 - even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Eph 1:11 - In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will

Rev 13:8 - and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

Rom 9:11 - though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call—

Am i part of that group? I believe i am because i believe in Jesus...

Act 16:31 - ...“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Here we see that we are justified and reconciled to God by the death of Jesus...

Rom 5:9-10 - Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

We also see in the Lord's own words that He died for His sheep, not for any other...

Jn 10:11 - I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Jn 10:15 - just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

I thank God that salvation is based on His will alone, and not ours. What a terrible mess if we were the one's controlling Heaven.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Just because you live in an Islamic country, that doesn't mean you are not of the elect. For those God has elected, he has determined that those would hear the gospel and be saved. A reformed missionary can go to any place in the world that he or she is called to go with the comfort of knowing that they don't have to save anyone. All they are called to do is preach the word of God to anyone who will listen. God does the rest.

Also, when you consider the possibility that any person you come into contact with may be of the elect or may not, you should always err on the side of the possibility that God has predestined them for glory. This is something many reformed people fail to do, much to our dismay. All are made in the image and likeness of God and there is nobody, no matter how vile they may seem, who man can disqualify from membership in God's elect.

Election is something that I once abhorred until I realized that it is not random or mean spirited. Election is a choice made by God, who has chosen to have mercy on some for no reason that we can comprehend. It is to His glory that He chooses some that we would not, as humans often love others based on conditionary love.

Think of the man waiting by the pool, hoping for years that he may be the one able to enter the waters for healing from his infirmity. Along comes Jesus among the large number of lame and stricken people. He walks up to this man and heals him. Why didn't Jesus heal the multitude? Was His choice not to heal the others mean-spirited and unfair?

The same concept applies for election. Some are chosen and some are not. It may seem unfair to humanity, but to declare God to be unfair toward those He has chosen to save is heresy.

 

[wsgm]

Well put, CoffeeSwirls.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Thank you! It has taken me over a year to come to grips with the true meaning of unconditional grace, and it has been quite a ride. When we realize that election is not random or based on anything we could acheive, but is based on a gracious God, that really makes it easier for someone new to the concept to grasp.

 

[cygnusx1]

Thank you! It has taken me over a year to come to grips with the true meaning of unconditional grace, and it has been quite a ride. When we realize that election is not random or based on anything we could acheive, but is based on a gracious God, that really makes it easier for someone new to the concept to grasp.

AMEN !!!!