The Elect?

[orthedoxy]

If God doesn't have to be just to all is he just at all?
If he doesn't have to love all is he loving at all?

 

[JM]

If God doesn't have to be just to all is he just at all?
If he doesn't have to love all is he loving at all?

How is it that you can judge God, if He is righteous or if He is a villian? How is it you are able to see down the portals of time to judge God's actions? I will answer with the words of St. Paul:

Rom. 9: 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Dream]

Just because you live in an Islamic country, that doesn't mean you are not of the elect. For those God has elected, he has determined that those would hear the gospel and be saved. A reformed missionary can go to any place in the world that he or she is called to go with the comfort of knowing that they don't have to save anyone. All they are called to do is preach the word of God to anyone who will listen. God does the rest.

Also, when you consider the possibility that any person you come into contact with may be of the elect or may not, you should always err on the side of the possibility that God has predestined them for glory. This is something many reformed people fail to do, much to our dismay. All are made in the image and likeness of God and there is nobody, no matter how vile they may seem, who man can disqualify from membership in God's elect.

Election is something that I once abhorred until I realized that it is not random or mean spirited. Election is a choice made by God, who has chosen to have mercy on some for no reason that we can comprehend. It is to His glory that He chooses some that we would not, as humans often love others based on conditionary love.

Think of the man waiting by the pool, hoping for years that he may be the one able to enter the waters for healing from his infirmity. Along comes Jesus among the large number of lame and stricken people. He walks up to this man and heals him. Why didn't Jesus heal the multitude? Was His choice not to heal the others mean-spirited and unfair?

The same concept applies for election. Some are chosen and some are not. It may seem unfair to humanity, but to declare God to be unfair toward those He has chosen to save is heresy.

Being a Catholic, I do not agree with the Calvinist view of predestination, but thank you all for your responses. It has helped me to gain a better understanding of what you view predestination to be, which was my intent. It's always good to clear up misconceptions.

Thank you, and God bless.

 

[cygnusx1]

Being a Catholic, I do not agree with the Calvinist view of predestination, but thank you all for your responses. It has helped me to gain a better understanding of what you view predestination to be, which was my intent. It's always good to clear up misconceptions.

Thank you, and God bless.

just read Augustines Enchiridion and you will see we believe something much older than Calvin ........... these things were carefully pondered and recognised even back then.

 

[BBAS 64]

If God doesn't have to be just to all is he just at all?
If he doesn't have to love all is he loving at all?

Good Day, Orthedoxy

You ask a couple of good questions here. In asking them you raise a question of prespective, you may think based on you point of view that if God does not meet your ideas of what love and justice then he can not be either.

I will sumbit that God is both love and just in the truest forms of the words and those attributes. God does not look to men to agree or disagree he just is. We need to change our point of view and see that He is all that He says he is regardless of what we think or preceive.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[orthedoxy]

Good Day, Orthedoxy

You ask a couple of good questions here. In asking them you raise a question of prespective, you may think based on you point of view that if God does not meet your ideas of what love and justice then he can not be either.

I will sumbit that God is both love and just in the truest forms of the words and those attributes. God does not look to men to agree or disagree he just is. We need to change our point of view and see that He is all that He says he is regardless of what we think or preceive.

Peace to u,

Bill

Not my point of view but the point of view of what the word love and just mean.
look up the word in a dictionary we can agree upon a defenition of a word or what it means.
I see the view of Gods love from a Calvinst point of view is like saying because Sadam Husain loves his kids and gave them great wealth, that would make Sadam Husain a loving person.
correct me if i'm wrong.
Peace

 

[Schmitty]

Orthedoxy is right. He is. If God isn't just to some, he isn't just at all.


But God is just, completely and perfectly. He owes grace to none. Theres nothing unjust at all about denying grace. If grace was owed it wouldn't be grace

 

[BBAS 64]

Not my point of view but the point of view of what the word love and just mean.
look up the word in a dictionary we can agree upon a defenition of a word or what it means.

Good Day, Othedoxy

The dictionary covers many fassets of the words in application. Lets look at some of those:

I am sure you love your Mom.
I am sure you love your siblings.
I am sure you love your Gand parrents.
I am sure you love your dog.

Using the same word for diffenet applications shows the diffenet types pf love that possible, unless you love your Mom and your dog the same.

I see the view of Gods love from a Calvinst point of view is like saying because Sadam Husain loves his kids and gave them great wealth, that would make Sadam Husain a loving person.
correct me if i'm wrong.
Peace

I am sorry I do not understand what you are saying here, I have read it over 5 or 6 times. Could you give me the writing of some author " Calvinist" who has written some thing to give you this idea.

May be from his kids point of view that could be true.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Orthedoxy is right. He is. If God isn't just to some, he isn't just at all.


But God is just, completely and perfectly. He owes grace to none. Theres nothing unjust at all about denying grace. If grace was owed it wouldn't be grace

Good Day, Schmitty

I agree

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[cygnusx1]

Orthedoxy is right. He is. If God isn't just to some, he isn't just at all.


But God is just, completely and perfectly. He owes grace to none. Theres nothing unjust at all about denying grace. If grace was owed it wouldn't be grace

when you consider Christ crucified under The Law , living and dying under God's Law , facing the full penalty of sin according to God's Law , you cannot get more JUST than that.

Greetings Cygnus

 

[orthedoxy]

Good Day, Othedoxy

The dictionary covers many fassets of the words in application. Lets look at some of those:

I am sure you love your Mom.
I am sure you love your siblings.
I am sure you love your Gand parrents.
I am sure you love your dog.

Using the same word for diffenet applications shows the diffenet types pf love that possible, unless you love your Mom and your dog the same.


I am sorry I do not understand what you are saying here, I have read it over 5 or 6 times. Could you give me the writing of some author " Calvinist" who has written some thing to give you this idea.

May be from his kids point of view that could be true.

Peace to u,

Bill

I mean if Sadam Husain loves his kids yet tortures others would he be considered loving?
How can you say God is loving if he doesn't love everyone in a saving way?
Why would Sedam Husain be not loving and Calvinist God loving?
I'm not saying God is not loving or not just, all what I mean from Calvinist point of view he can't be just nor loving.

 

[BBAS 64]

I mean if Sadam Husain loves his kids yet tortures others would he be considered loving?.

Good Day, Othedoxy

I have answered that question, his kids may see him as loving.

.

How can you say God is loving if he doesn't love everyone in a saving way?.

God's love is extened to all people belivers in a special way, and the others is so much that He allows them to live.

Do you love your Mom and your dog, the same way??

How was God's love extended to the first Born of Egyt in there destuction?
How was God's love extended to the Prophets of the false god in thier destuction by Isa?

.

Why would Sedam Husain be not loving and Calvinist God loving?
I'm not saying God is not loving or not just, all what I mean from Calvinist point of view he can't be just nor loving.

You have a misunderstanding of the Calvinist view of God's love and the record of Scripture in how God's love is extened to all.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[orthedoxy]

Good Day, Othedoxy

I have answered that question, his kids may see him as loving.

.

God's love is extened to all people belivers in a special way, and the others is so much that He allows them to live.

Do you love your Mom and your dog, the same way??

How was God's love extended to the first Born of Egyt in there destuction?
How was God's love extended to the Prophets of the false god in thier destuction by Isa?

.

You have a misunderstanding of the Calvinist view of God's love and the record of Scripture in how God's love is extened to all.

Peace to u,

Bill

Would you say Sadam is loving when he gives food to the people before he torture? Just because God alows people to live for a few years doesn't mean he loves them, if he doesn't attempt to save them.

I don't love my neighbors kids as much as my own but if my neighbor kid falls in my swimming pool and I could rescue him and don't even attempt to rescue him just watch him drown. Would you say I’m a loving person?
I think if my mother could but wouldn't attempt to help a drowning infant. I would not consider her to be loving no matter how much she has done for me.

 

[BBAS 64]

Would you say Sadam is loving when he gives food to the people before he torture? Just because God alows people to live for a few years doesn't mean he loves them, if he doesn't attempt to save them.

Good Day, Othedoxy

So why does God allow people to live if not love? I must say I like your conditional "if", that is your condition you have ascribed to God. You mean God tries to save them and fails . What in your view does God lack that would cause him to try and fail? How hard does God try?

Just for the record my God never fails, he lacks nothing. He wants it He get's it end of story.

I don't love my neighbors kids as much as my own but if my neighbor kid falls in my swimming pool and I could rescue him and don't even attempt to rescue him just watch him drown. Would you say I’m a loving person?
I think if my mother could but wouldn't attempt to help a drowning infant. I would not consider her to be loving no matter how much she has done for me.

Thanks for your answer, as you can see here the a diffent kinds of love and differnet degrees of love that you freely apply to differnet people based on your relationship with them.

It is just ashame you do not allow God to do the same.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[orthedoxy]

Good Day, Othedoxy

So why does God allow people to live if not love? I must say I like your conditional "if", that is your condition you have ascribed to God. You mean God tries to save them and fails . What in your view does God lack that would cause him to try and fail? How hard does God try?

Just for the record my God never fails, he lacks nothing. He wants it He get's it end of story.

God loves everyone he died for everyone. His will is that non should parish. God came and died so that people might believe(I would say he tries very hard so that people would believe).
God can’t force people to love him or force them to believe. Forced love(irresistible grace) is rape.
Matt 23:37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing
He wanted but couldn’t because they were not willing.

Also act 7:51“You stiffnecked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
God doesn't force his will

Thanks for your answer, as you can see here the a diffent kinds of love and differnet degrees of love that you freely apply to differnet people based on your relationship with them.

It is just ashame you do not allow God to do the same.

Peace to u,

Bill

I agree that there is different degree of love.
Are you saying by allowing a person to drown and not attempt to help is a kind of love?
God bless

 

[BBAS 64]

God loves everyone he died for everyone. His will is that non should parish. God came and died so that people might believe(I would say he tries very hard so that people would believe).

Good Day, Othedoxy

So, It is your view that God tries "very Hard" to save all people and he wants all people to be saved but, fails to get what he whats thus in heaven God is unforfilled and unhappy wasted his time and energy. He has a plan that is flawed.

Sorry Othedoxy I disagree with all my being. God does not fail, he lacks NOTHING to bring his will and plan to pass.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Does not say might, could, would like to, maybe, if only.

He SHALL SAVE His people.

God can’t force people to love him or force them to believe. Forced love(irresistible grace) is rape.

Forced I love this implication and use of this word, where in all of the writings of The Doctrines of Grace does any one refer to "force"? You assume that the creation has the abilty to stay the hand of the creator.

Matt 23:37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing
He wanted but couldn’t because they were not willing.

Othedoxy, The pronoun "you" here refers to whom? The text says "your children".. whose childeren were they? The plain reading shows that these pronouns and the possive "your" refer to the "Jerusalem".

So, you see that because Jersualem was unwilling it had a negitive effect on her children thus her children were not gathered because of her choices? Wow now we are on to something that would seem contray to your understanding.

Also act 7:51“You stiffnecked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
God doesn't force his will

I do not see in this text were the will of God is spoken of, it is a didactic statement about you people.

I agree that there is different degree of love.
Are you saying by allowing a person to drown and not attempt to help is a kind of love?
God bless

I am glad we can agree, so how was God's love shown to the people that Isa killed in the valley, who worshipped a false god?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

When you read John 6:35-40 it clarifies itself quite a bit. Jesus states here that his people are those sent to him by the Father, not everyone in the world without exception. All who are shown the treasure of grace accept it of their own accord, per the teaching of Jesus, and they will never be cast out. Yes, everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life, but that sentence must be taken in the context of what else Jesus had to say at that time.

If we do not consider the context of what we are reading, dangerous misperceptions can develop. It is the responsibility of every Christian to rightly divide the word of God, and context has been something many have been negligent of. These include many of those who taught my childhood Sunday School classes. When you are trained in one thing, but the Bible says another, much frustration is the natural result.

 

[orthedoxy]

Good Day, Othedoxy

So, It is your view that God tries "very Hard" to save all people and he wants all people to be saved but, fails to get what he whats thus in heaven God is unforfilled and unhappy wasted his time and energy. He has a plan that is flawed.

Sorry Othedoxy I disagree with all my being. God does not fail, he lacks NOTHING to bring his will and plan to pass.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Does not say might, could, would like to, maybe, if only.

He SHALL SAVE His people.

His people were the Jews and not all Jews were saved. He saves as long as you respond.
2 cor 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
Jesus died for the "whole world" (1 John 2:2); "all" (2 Cor. 5:15); "every man" (Heb. 2:9).
This would make him a loving God if he didn’t die for all then he can’t be loving.

Forced I love this implication and use of this word, where in all of the writings of The Doctrines of Grace does any one refer to "force"? You assume that the creation has the abilty to stay the hand of the creator.

Force means you can’t do otherwise. If God choose you without you being able to resist then that is the same as force.

Othedoxy, The pronoun "you" here refers to whom? The text says "your children".. whose childeren were they? The plain reading shows that these pronouns and the possive "your" refer to the "Jerusalem".

So, you see that because Jersualem was unwilling it had a negitive effect on her children thus her children were not gathered because of her choices? Wow now we are on to something that would seem contray to your understanding.

The point is he wanted to gather but couldn’t.
He didn’t change the will.

I do not see in this text were the will of God is spoken of, it is a didactic statement about you people.

How can you not see the fact that they resisted God the Holy Spirit?

I am glad we can agree, so how was God's love shown to the people that Isa killed in the valley, who worshipped a false god?

Peace to u,

Bill

They had a choice to choose life instead of death just like we do today but they chose death. Like when you have a girlfriend that you love but she doesn’t love you or like a drowning person that won’t pickup the life jacket because they don’t trust you.

Bill please answer this question can one be loving if he only loves some people?

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Let's look at this for a moment. Who are "his people?" Yes, he was Jewish by birth, but did only Israel remain "his people?" If this is the case, we gentiles are all just debating nothing at all.

Hosea 2:23
Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;
Then I will say to those who were not My people,
"You are My people!'
And they shall say, "You are my God!"'

I don't see how we can have any hope in Christ if his people are only the Jews and no others. Jesus bridged the chasm between the races of peoples. No longer are we seperated from him. No longer are we on the outside looking in.

Did Jesus die for the whole world? Yes and no. He died to redeem his elect and no others. Those he elected, he showed a treasure that brings to pale any trinkets we have so desperately clung to. He traded our hearts of stone for hearts of flesh and changed our desires. We always select our loyalties according to desire. This is true of anyone, whether they be a thief, an office worker, a doctor or a suicidal person. We continually have choices to make, and God changes our heart so we no longer choose against him, but choose for him. Without a change from God, nobody seeks Him. We choose the darkness rather than the light, lest our deeds be exposed. It is when we are called according to his purpose that we come into the light with the assurance that our sins are forgiven. All of the glory belongs to God, none of it is ours.

In dying for the world, Jesus accomplished all that he was to do at the moment he pronounced that it was finished and gave up his spirit. He will redeem the world, but not everyone in it. I don't know many serious theologians who follow a universalistic approach toward salvation. If God decided that his justice was no longer important, he would have to deny his own import in the scheme of reality. He would be reduced and could no longer be considered to be God. We have a responsibility in this.

Most people don't choose to love Him, as more are people are not chosen than are. This is not something that they mind, though. Sure, they will mind at Judgment Day, but for now, they are content to each go their own way as master of their own domains. Likewise, those who are changed truly love the Lord and affectionately can call him "Abba." You will never see anyone dragged into Heaven, kicking and screaming that this is against their will. Those who go there have a heart for God, placed there by God.

Is this justice? Yes. Is it mercy? You better believe it!

Justice without love or mercy is a situation where God destroys us all in place and subjects us all to Hell. Nobody will come to Jesus unless drawn anyway. Mercy without justice would lead to universalism mentioned above. Like I said before, a god who has no enforced preference is no god worthy of worship.

The point is he wanted to gather but couldn’t.

Who couldn't? The God who created this universe and everything in it? The God who holds all that we can perceive and all that we can't together? The God who sits on the Judgment Seat over all of creation? The God who takes such drastic measures to see that his will is realized that he sends his only begotten son to perish? Ours is a God of might. Ours is a God of love.

Side note: Election sealed Jesus' death warrent. Ever consider this? Before the foundation of the world, God knew what would happen and knew how He would redeem His people and all of His creation. Another way to think of redeeming the world is reclaiming the world. And the method of redemption was one that is foolishness to the world, yet it brings unimaginable glory to God.

Yes, the world has resisted the Lord for the most part. But in every generation are some who the Lord saves within their regenerated will

Romans 11:4
But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

Who reserved them? God. Who did he do this for? Himself. Is this unloving? Is this unjust? Is this unmerciful?

We need to get away from some concept that God is bound to be fair by our standards. From the first examples of humanity we have been unfair to God and for generations from Abraham to the present, we who consider ourselves to be "his people" cry out that he is unfair to us. Just who do we think we are?

A biblical worldview is not popular in today's culture, but that is what we in this thread seek to display. It is not always a view that is to the comfort of others, but it is one that seeks first the glory of God. I didn't like it at first. I had some of the same objections as you. I was determined to refute this doctrine with scriptural truth. But then I read my Bible from cover to cover and the objections stopped because it no longer could be all about me.

I'm not passing judgment on you, orthedoxy, as I don't even know you. I just got on a tangent there.

 

[BBAS 64]

His people were the Jews and not all Jews were saved. He saves as long as you respond.
2 cor 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
Jesus died for the "whole world" (1 John 2:2); "all" (2 Cor. 5:15); "every man" (Heb. 2:9).
This would make him a loving God if he didn’t die for all then he can’t be loving.

Good Day, Othedoxy

Here in lies the problem is that you see Jesus as a saviour who needs some help from people in some kind of response. I see Jesus as a saviour who was sent to save His people that is why he was sent.

Force means you can’t do otherwise. If God choose you without you being able to resist then that is the same as force.

I think you have confused force with inabilty. God's choices are based on God that's why they are His choices.

The point is he wanted to gather but couldn’t.
He didn’t change the will.

That would all depend on how Jersualem is used, along with who her children are. Your point about the will, whose will Jersualem or her children's?

Was not Peter a child of Jersualem?

How can you not see the fact that they resisted God the Holy Spirit??

Do not remember saying other wise.

They had a choice to choose life instead of death just like we do today but they chose death. Like when you have a girlfriend that you love but she doesn’t love you or like a drowning person that won’t pickup the life jacket because they don’t trust you.?

Orthedoxy Here is the quetion I do not understand your response above,

Question by BBAS...

so how was God's love shown to the people that Isa killed in the valley, who worshipped a false god?

Really would like your answer Please.

Bill please answer this question can one be loving if he only loves some people?

If you go back and read you will see I have said that the fact that people live.. and breath even tough they are wicked is an act of God's love. For some reason you do not see that or find that unacceptable.

Peace to u,

Bill