The Ecumenical Movement

[Hermit76]

On another thread I mentioned that we should not celebrate the "accomplishments" of Billy Graham. Having migrated from Evangelicalism to Orthodoxy I believe Graham's friendliness to be a dangerous and costly "bridge" for Orthodox and Catholics. If not for Graham the false sinners prayer and altar call may have died out in America. However, his large assemblies and responses gave many Evangelicals the fodder needed to adjust and adapt to this style of church service. More than ever before the sermon was highlighted as the only conveyance of grace in the church. This mindset is now entrenched in the American psyche and is, to some, akin to a cult teaching.
I noted that repentance from my time as a minister was part of my conversion. However, it was noted that my repentance and reservation about the glorification of Graham was "baggage" that kept me from being a good Orthodox. Evidently there is this mass movement among Orthodox who adore Graham and his teachings. This movement includes bishops evidently.
What say ye? Are my reservations justified?

 

[Light of the East]

I have to think of the Early Fathers. They weren't particular enamored with heterodoxy of any sort and some of them could be downright cranky about those who practiced heterodox or outright heretical beliefs.

I guess this is part of my search for the truth also. When I was in Fundamentalism and then Calvinism, it was pounded into me that the truth was extremely important, so much so that those who deviated from it even a little bit were walking around with the flames of hell licking at their bootstraps. One does not get over 25 years of such teaching very easily.

I cannot judge Billy Graham's heart in this matter. None of us can. That judgment is for God alone, with whom Billy is now. And certainly, it feels odd to me to even bring this up, since my own less-than-perfect life and sins are enough to fill hell several times over.

 

[JackRT]

I believe that any movement that improves communication and understanding between Christians to be worthwhile.

 

[Light of the East]

I believe that any movement that improves communication and understanding between Christians to be worthwhile.

Meeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah......only if it is a true search for the truth and only if it leads to conversions to the truth.

I think too much of "ecumenical dialogue" is more of "I'm okay and you're okay."

Don't buy that.

 

[JackRT]

Meeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah......only if it is a true search for the truth and only if it leads to conversions to the truth.

I think too much of "ecumenical dialogue" is more of "I'm okay and you're okay."

Don't buy that.

Well, I'm OK and I do hope you're OK and I would like to better understand your understandings.

 

[Hermit76]

Well, I'm OK and I do hope you're OK and I would like to better understand your understandings.

I am not sure I am ok... Lord have mercy.

 

[Hermit76]

I have to think of the Early Fathers. They weren't particular enamored with heterodoxy of any sort and some of them could be downright cranky about those who practiced heterodox or outright heretical beliefs.

I guess this is part of my search for the truth also. When I was in Fundamentalism and then Calvinism, it was pounded into me that the truth was extremely important, so much so that those who deviated from it even a little bit were walking around with the flames of hell licking at their bootstraps. One does not get over 25 years of such teaching very easily.

I cannot judge Billy Graham's heart in this matter. None of us can. That judgment is for God alone, with whom Billy is now. And certainly, it feels odd to me to even bring this up, since my own less-than-perfect life and sins are enough to fill hell several times over.

My point is not to bring heaps of coals upon Billy Graham's memory. I don't expect you want to do this either. I think you would agree that the problem is that we should not celebrate this man as a "Christian" leader.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Why is disagreeing with you equated to bitterness? I spent many years as an evangelical pastor. Repentance from the harm I caused was a major part of my conversion. I am simply upset to see a person who represents my past sins being celebrated as though his message was a gift.

Billy Graham was responsible for propagating the disastrous sinner's prayer theology of salvation. Think about what you said about people coming "forward to make a commitment to Christ". This is not compatible with Orthodox theology. Billy Graham was not a friend to Orthodox or Catholics though he wanted to be perceived as such. Many in his own denomination would say the same because he sewed confusion.

On another thread I mentioned that we should not celebrate the "accomplishments" of Billy Graham. Having migrated from Evangelicalism to Orthodoxy I believe Graham's friendliness to be a dangerous and costly "bridge" for Orthodox and Catholics. If not for Graham the false sinners prayer and altar call may have died out in America. However, his large assemblies and responses gave many Evangelicals the fodder needed to adjust and adapt to this style of church service. More than ever before the sermon was highlighted as the only conveyance of grace in the church. This mindset is now entrenched in the American psyche and is, to some, akin to a cult teaching.
I noted that repentance from my time as a minister was part of my conversion. However, it was noted that my repentance and reservation about the glorification of Graham was "baggage" that kept me from being a good Orthodox. Evidently there is this mass movement among Orthodox who adore Graham and his teachings. This movement includes bishops evidently.
What say ye? Are my reservations justified?

You are taking something I said, and drawing an entirely different conclusion from it. I do not want to join with the protestants, I don't want to sacrifice a single ounce of our beliefs to get them to convert. What I said was a popular evangelist like Billy Graham was open minded towards Orthodoxy, and so if people who loved him would do the same, we would have a greater chance of converting him.

What you said about "coming foward and making a commitment to Christ", I am not talking about the sinners prayer. I am talking about people being led to Christ. If suddenly the Orthodox Church has a stance against converting people to following Christ, then I must have missed the memo. It is better for someone to be heterodox than Pagan. Had I not been a Baptist dissatisfied with my own theology, I never would have found Orthodoxy. And had I not been raised to love Christ as a child (from heterodox family), I wouldn't have continued looking within Christianity for another road when I questioned the faith.

I get that you feel guilty- But don't let that turn into something unchristian. I don't agree with Billy Graham on the majority of his works, but he still loved the Lord, and so I respect him.

 

[☦Marius☦]

My point is not to bring heaps of coals upon Billy Graham's memory. I don't expect you want to do this either. I think you would agree that the problem is that we should not celebrate this man as a "Christian" leader.

If we start Judging every individual as whether or not they were a Christian, then we are going beyond our own rights, and doing God's job. Beware. We know where the Holy Spirit is, we don't know where he isn't.

Saying there is no salvation outside the Church is a RCC teaching, the Orthodox Church proclaims we are the only GUARANTEED way to salvation, as the path is very narrow, and our teachings are the ones that truly help. But anyone who loves God as much as Billy Graham will doubtless repent of it now that he is on the other side and can see the truth.

 

[Hermit76]

...I get that you feel guilty- But don't let that turn into something unchristian. I don't agree with Billy Graham on the majority of his works, but he still loved the Lord, and so I respect him.

If we start Judging every individual as whether or not they were a Christian, then we are going beyond our own rights, and doing God's job. Beware. We know where the Holy Spirit is, we don't know where he isn't.

You have no problem referring to my unchristian ways... I think there is a mote.

 

[☦Marius☦]

What is the Protestant saying? "Love the sinner, hate the sin?"

 

[Hermit76]

If we start Judging every individual as whether or not they were a Christian, then we are going beyond our own rights, and doing God's job. Beware. We know where the Holy Spirit is, we don't know where he isn't.

Saying there is no salvation outside the Church is a RCC teaching, the Orthodox Church proclaims we are the only GUARANTEED way to salvation, as the path is very narrow, and our teachings are the ones that truly help. But anyone who loves God as much as Billy Graham will doubtless repent of it now that he is on the other side and can see the truth.

I did not question his salvation. I questioned his place as a Christian leader. Those are two VERY different things. I think you just want me to be wrong and are willing to take steps to make sure I am regardless of what I say.

 

[☦Marius☦]

On another thread I mentioned that we should not celebrate the "accomplishments" of Billy Graham. Having migrated from Evangelicalism to Orthodoxy I believe Graham's friendliness to be a dangerous and costly "bridge" for Orthodox and Catholics. If not for Graham the false sinners prayer and altar call may have died out in America. However, his large assemblies and responses gave many Evangelicals the fodder needed to adjust and adapt to this style of church service. More than ever before the sermon was highlighted as the only conveyance of grace in the church. This mindset is now entrenched in the American psyche and is, to some, akin to a cult teaching.
I noted that repentance from my time as a minister was part of my conversion. However, it was noted that my repentance and reservation about the glorification of Graham was "baggage" that kept me from being a good Orthodox. Evidently there is this mass movement among Orthodox who adore Graham and his teachings. This movement includes bishops evidently.
What say ye? Are my reservations justified?

You have no problem referring to my unchristian ways... I think there is a mote.

I said don't let the attitude turn into something unchristian, implying future tense. I leave the judgement up to you as I should.

 

[Hermit76]

What is the Protestant saying? "Love the sinner, hate the sin?"

Evidently that is your saying as well... well, with the exception of people who disagree with you on the sainthood of Billy Graham

 

[☦Marius☦]

I did not question his salvation. I questioned his place as a Christian leader. Those are two VERY different things. I think you just want me to be wrong and are willing to take steps to make sure I am regardless of what I say.

What?

You were the one who started this entire debate, and cared enough to start another thread.

Regardless of what you want, he was a leader to millions, and he seemed to love the Lord enough that I would label him as trying to be a Christian. Did he mislead them into heresy? Yes, but does that mean no good can come of it? No.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Evidently that is your saying as well... well, with the exception of people who disagree with you on the sainthood of Billy Graham

Now you are bearing false witness. I never claimed the sainthood of Billy Graham. I said it is our duty to love him. AS WE ARE TO LOVE ALL, whether they are wrong, or evil, or simply ignorant.

 

[dzheremi]

Wasn't it St. Theophan the Recluse (who is no lightweight in your communion, as far as I can tell) who said something like "Why do you worry about the heterodox? They have a Lord who desires the salvation of every human being; He will take care of them."

I'm sure I at least slightly mangled the quote (sorry, EO friends), but I'd go with that.

I have heard EO priests save positive things about certain Evangelical figures, but always in ways that make it clear in context why they would say it (e.g., when Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon said in an interview on AFR once that Franklin Graham gave the only explicitly Trinitarian prayer at some kind of interfaith prayer service after 9/11 that included Orthodox leaders, too). Maybe the bishops you mention mean to do the same?

 

[Hermit76]

Make no mistake about it. Graham would have converted every Orthodox to Evangelicalism if he could have.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Make no mistake about it. Graham would have converted every Orthodox to Evangelicalism if he could have.

Apparently not:

"The Orthodox have always had good cooperation with Billy Graham. When Billy Graham went to Russia, he was received by the patriarch, because he worked on the principle that those who came forward to make a commitment to Christ at his preaching were handed over to the clergy of their own church. He did not try to set up his own evangelical communities that would be rivals to the Orthodox. (Christianity Today) (St. Elias Church)"

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think reservations are justified, since Graham did have a lot of errors in his theology. however, since none of us knows the state of his soul, it would be wrong on our end to make any judgment of how Christian he was. God willing, when he encountered the Lord he saw through his errors.

but I do think that questioning a Protestant minister on how Christian he is when he just died is very ill timed.