The duration of hell and its purpose

[hedrick]

Billy Graham practically taught universalism.

"What God is doing today is calling people out of the world for His name. Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ" - Billy Graham

He is normally considered inclusivist, not universalist. That is, he thought non-Christians could be saved, but not that everyone is. This quote is consistent with that.

 

[ozso]

He is normally considered inclusivist, not universalist. That is, he thought non-Christians could be saved, but not that everyone is. This quote is consistent with that.

I know, that's why I said practically.

 

[ozso]

Help me out here, how do you get universalism from this?

Because inclusionism says many non-christains and atheists are saved. Not quite universalism, but close to it.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Can you show one that says it isn't?

Yes. Though, let me first preface this by saying that the burden of proof is not on me, for I’m not the one arguing from silence. That is, God’s Word talks a lot about judgment to salvation and damnation, and whenever it does, it exclusively talks about these two outcomes. So this is to get at an exegetical point: Whenever we want to learn what the Bible says on any given topic, we should allow the texts that deal with the topic to govern the texts that don't.

Having said this, the Bible does express that repentance is not possible after death nor in the resurrection, and in no vague terms:

(1) Repentance is not possible after death — cf. Christ's story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. Specifically, it says, talking about heaven and hell: "Besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not do so, and none may cross from there to us."

(2) Repentance is not possible after death nor in the resurrection — cf. The description of God's rest and who enters it in Hebrews 3:7-19. Specifically, it says: "And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief." That is, they died in unbelief and were blotted out and are unable to enter God's rest.

So, in sum, not only does the Bible never speak of repentance in the resurrection, it speaks against it.

I think the person who hates and reects out Lord is relative scarce. For the most part non-Christians are those who follow some ofhter religion, or none, and who give out Lord little or no thought. I always hold up one my Korean great grandfathers who they tell me rejected Christanity as just another strange foreign religion. He didn't hate our Lord, he gave HIm no thought at all.

Net-net is that I think that attributing malice toward God to all unbelievers is simply yet another attempt to make the idea of eternal conscious torment a little less barbarous. If we're roasting fairly nice folks because they were a bit hard-headed then it doesn't sound either loving or just, it just sounds vicious.

What does Jesus express in the parable of the sower regarding how people reject Him? He gives examples of how people reject Him in different ways. You can read it for yourself in Matthew 13, but just as a summary: Some people reject God by being enticed by evil, some reject Him out of fear and selfishness, some reject Him out of their love, comfort and trust in the world. Or, again, see how people reject Him in His parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22, where He says of those who reject Him: "They paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them."

In short, those who reject God reject Him by siding with the devil, the world, and their own sinful nature. And if we understand sin as some arbitrary list of stuff we can't do, we are gravely mistaken. For to sin is to rebel against God. It is to reject God and attempt to crown ourselves our own "lord". For in sinning, we say to God: "You don't know what's good, I know what's good. I will not listen to you, I will listen to myself. You are not my God, I am my own lord." And if we reject God, He who is good and the source of all that is good, we not only reject God, but that which is good, which is to embrace evil, which is to be evil. This is why our Lord plainly says of us: "You are evil." This is why He calls us to repentance.

Those who reject God and His grace reject Him by what evil they do, say, and think, and what good they fail to do. That is, before God, we are all guilty of sin. Before God, no one is righteous — not even one. We are all guilty, every one of us, even if we have a weak understanding of sin and its severity and consequences. For clear passages on this, I can recommend reading Romans 1-3 and then further for God's good promises through Jesus.

Now, I can quickly mention here that living in Japan and having family members who have no regard or thought about Christ is lamentable. Yet, I recognise that God is merciful and that His judgments are good, for He is good. That is, the heart of God is manifest in His Son, Jesus Christ, so we don't have to worry about God judging unfairly, because no one is more gracious and just than God, who died for sinners.

If God wills it so, yes.

Can I encourage you to read about God’s judgment of Satan in 2 Peter 2? There is no indication of redemption there. That would be a reading into the text.

I believe that one means eternal life, and one means eterla death, in the sense of being made to have never existed, eternally erased from time and space. Bothe merciful and just. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". Infernalists believe that the wages of sin is eternal life nder torture. Not what it says at all. "Oh, but "death" doesn't really mean death, it really means torture." Baloney.

Yeah, God's Word describes hell and condemnation in a variety of words. Let me be clear: We don't know what it is, but based on the imagery were are given by God, we can know it to be terrible. God warns us against it, calling it a place of shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2), a place of torment (Luke 16:23-25), outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12), a lake of fire and sulphur where there is torment day and night for ever and ever (Revelation 20:10), a place where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:48), a place where both body and soul is destroyed (Matthew 10:28), and a place without God's mercy (James 2:13).

So, in a word, what is described as a lake of fire is also called the second death.
Revelation 20:14: "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:8: "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

How many actually reject grace, as simply not having embraced it? This is simply making ECT sound less barbarous again. "Oh, but they chose to be tormented!" Nobody actually believes that.

This post is getting rather long and I already touched on this above — However, to expand a little on it in answer to your objection let me offer you a simple thought:

Suppose a man commits a few crimes every day, thinking that it either has no consequence or that he can get away with it, only to one day suddenly be faced prison charges. Now, it's not as if the man compared prison with freedom and said to himself: "You know what? I choose prison! I don't want freedom." No sensible person would think that, as you say yourself. Rather, every time he committed a crime, he chose prison. Do you see the difference? Now, the nature of sin is far more complex than this, but what I wanted to illustrate here, in very simple terms, is that when we sin, we do in fact merit for ourselves condemnation, and that is our by our own sinful choice and will.

To wrap up this post, it can be helpful to reverse our thinking when we contemplate the reality of sin and damnation. That is, instead of considering damnation as an unreasonable consequence of sin, we should instead ask ourselves: How terrible is sin that merits such a terrible consequence? And the more we reflect on this, that is, the weight and corruption of sin, the more we see the great sacrifice of Christ, who bore the sin of the whole world on His shoulders and was nailed to the cross and forsaken by the Father; and His strength in overcoming sin, death, and hell!

In a word, though sin is great, God's mercy is greater. Yet, if we reject Christ, what mercy is there? Acts 4:11-12 reads: "Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." And God promises in Mark 16:16: "Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

 

[wendykvw]

Never been there but while I was at my Alma Mater Billy Graham preached in the chapel '82ish . As one might expect everybody wanted to go see Billy. Each student, faculty and staff got one ticket. Since I am married guess who would get to use my 1 ticket? A few days prior to the event I was walking down a hallway and 2 students I didn't know were approaching one said to the other "I'm in the choir I don't need my ticket." "Hold on a minute I need another ticket." He tried to stall me but I said I can go right now." And that is how my wife got to see/hear and meet Billy Graham.

I was a volunteer for many years as a counselor at the BG crusades and ministry.

 

[wendykvw]

Luke 6

3He went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, 4as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:

“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,

‘Prepare the way for the Lord,

make straight paths for Him.5Every valley shall be filled in,

and every mountain and hill made low.

The crooked ways shall be made straight,

and the rough ways smooth.6And all humanity will see God’s salvation.’ ”

John the Baptist began to preach shortly before Jesus started His public ministry. John called on people to repent of their sin (Luke 3:3). This fulfilled Old Testament prophecies which said a herald would precede the arrival of the Messiah (Malachi 3:1; 4:5–6). In this passage, Luke is quoting from Isaiah 40:3–5. The role of this "voice of one," calling out from the desert (Luke 1:80) is to prepare the people to meet their Savior.

John's preaching ministry was very direct (Luke 3:7), and it was also clear. He did not claim to be the Promised One, instead indicating people should follow Jesus when He arrived (John 1:26–34; 3:30).

In this context, "the salvation of God" is a reference to the Messiah, the Promised One, who is Christ. The prediction is that all people will be made aware of this Savior (Romans 1:18–20), not that all people will be saved by Him (John 3:36). The gospel is universal in its availability: any who want to repent and express faith can be saved by doing so (John 6:37; 2 Peter 3:9). Not all will choose that path (John 3:18).

Yes this is the position of human free will. Yet there are many passages that indicate salvation is not based on human effort but on God's will.

 

[wendykvw]

I have some papers I submitted for credit but no clue where they are.

You might want to check out Steven R. Harmon. He wrote a book covering the history of restoration for his doctorate. And he went to a Southern Baptist Seminary. He is not supporting the view, just writing about the history. I think you may appreciate his research.

 

[wendykvw]

I believe that if God reveals Himself fully to someone, and that someone rejects God, that is unforgivable simply because what more can God do?

Sure that is always a possibility. I remain hopeful that all will meet God in His full Glory and at that point they will be like St. Paul, unable to reject Him.

 

[ozso]

The afterlife is no longer subject to time. So any reference to "eternal" does not include the passage of time but refers to a timeless state.

Interesting. Is there any scripture referring to that?

 

[ozso]

Yes. Though, let me first preface this by saying that the burden of proof is not on me, for I’m not the one arguing from silence. That is, God’s Word talks a lot about judgment to salvation and damnation, and whenever it does, it exclusively talks about these two outcomes. So this is to get at an exegetical point: Whenever we want to learn what the Bible says on any given topic, we should allow the texts that deal with the topic to govern the texts that don't.

Having said this, the Bible does express that repentance is not possible after death nor in the resurrection, and in no vague terms:

(1) Repentance is not possible after death — cf. Christ's story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. Specifically, it says, talking about heaven and hell: "Besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not do so, and none may cross from there to us."

The idea is that the Cross bridged that chasm.

 

[SkyWriting]

Interesting. Is there any scripture referring to that?

We know that matter has a beginning and that matter ages or deteriorates over time. In fact the deterioration of matter and the increase in disorder is how we measure time.

What Does the Bible Say About being Omnipresent?

Eternality, Mercy
Goodness, Omnipotence
Grace, Omnipresence
Holiness, Omniscience
Immanence, Righteousness
Immutability, Self-Existence
Justice, Sovereignty
Love, Transcendence

 

[BPPLEE]

From the earliest days of the church, there have always been three views on what happens to those who die without knowing Christ...damnation, annihilation, and restoration.

Damnation views hell as retributive punishment and the duration is eternal without end.

Annihilation has an end at some point and destroys evil to ashes. Those of this view may expand further.

The restoration view teaches that hell is medicinal and temporal with an outcome of celebration, restored to their creator.

Explain your view and the duration and how you came to that conclusion.

I recommend this book https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0310516463/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1657536751&sr=8-2

 

[eleos1954]

Not so sure Paul would agree. He has a fully supernatural view of the world. For him it’s not humans making decisions on their own. It’s God in the process of defeating the powers and principalities. When he talks about sin, it’s mostly not individual wrong acts. Sin is a power oppressing us. What we see in 1 Cor 15 is the final defeat of the oppressors and the triumph of God.

Paul didn't teach that all would be saved.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes this is the position of human free will. Yet there are many passages that indicate salvation is not based on human effort but on God's will.

God doesn't force His will on anyone .... if He did then free will would not exist.

Accepting the gift of salvation is a choice not a work, it's a choice ... He invites all but not all will choose to accept the gift.

Romans 3

9The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

Deuteronomy 30:19

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

 

[FineLinen]

Paul didn't teach that all would be saved.

Eleos: Paul declares clearly that the identical "many/polus" made sinners in the first Adam, are the many "made righteous" in the Last.

Every last broken wreck restored!

 

[FineLinen]

God doesn't force His will on anyone .... if He did then free will would not exist.

The Master of reconciliation will draw how many unto Himself?

ALL

Draw = helkuo =
Draw off in power.
Drag off in power.
Impel in power.

Helkuo is a strong word which means to tug, draw, or compel, and is found 6 times in the New Testament. In each usage, whatever was drawn came; there is never a suggestion or hint that whatever was drawn was not accomplished. It is used in John 18:10 of drawing a sword, John 21:6 and 11 of hauling/drawing a net full of fish, and Acts 16:19, of Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace. In John 12:32, Jesus said, And I, if I am lifted up, will draw all men to Myself.

Report to mod

 

[wendykvw]

I recommend this book https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0310516463/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1657536751&sr=8-2

I have this book. Thanks for sharing

 

[wendykvw]

God doesn't force His will on anyone .... if He did then free will would not exist.

Accepting the gift of salvation is a choice not a work, it's a choice ... He invites all but not all will choose to accept the gift.

Romans 3

9The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

Deuteronomy 30:19

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

Force will not be needed. It will be willingly.

 

[Der Alte]

Force will not be needed. It will be willingly.

I have yet for anybody to explain to me how the unrighteous after they are thrown into fiery punishment for some period of time emerge from that punishment loving and serving God?
The prison recidivism in the US is about 60%. That is out of every 100 prisoners released from prison about 60 are not rehabilitated, they return to prison. But supposedly among the unrighteous who are sentenced to hell there is a 100% rehabilitation rate. Why this gret disparity? I can't find any scrfipture which directly supports this.

 

[wendykvw]

I have yet for anybody to explain to me how the unrighteous after they are thrown into fiery punishment for some period of time emerge from that punishment loving and serving God?
The prison recidivism in the US is about 60%. That is out of every 100 prisoners released from prison about 60 are not rehabilitated, they return to prison. But supposedly among the unrighteous who are sentenced to hell there is a 100% rehabilitation rate. Why this gret disparity? I can't find any scrfipture which directly supports this.

Sorry, with all due respect I believe the analogy you are using is bad. Do you believe Jesus is God? If yes, then if you believe He can raise the dead, heal the blind, etc. Why would it be incomprehensible to believe He can cure the unrighteous?

Using your reasoning because Human doctors can not cure all disease therefore God can not cure all disease.^^^ The statement above is incorrect. God will cure the disease spread by Satan, and the first Adam. Romans 5:15. God will reform those in the fire.

Luke 5:30-31 ….30The Pharisees and their scribes [seeing those with whom He was associating] began murmuring in discontent to His disciples, asking, “Why are you eating and drinking with the tax collectors and sinners [including non-observant Jews]?” 31And Jesus replied to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but [only] those who are sick.