The duration of hell and its purpose

[SkyWriting]

From the earliest days of the church, there have always been three views on what happens to those who die without knowing Christ...damnation, annihilation, and restoration.

Damnation views hell as retributive punishment and the duration is eternal without end.

Annihilation has an end at some point and destroys evil to ashes. Those of this view may expand further.

The restoration view teaches that hell is medicinal and temporal with an outcome of celebration, restored to their creator.

Explain your view and the duration and how you came to that conclusion.

The afterlife is no longer subject to time. So any reference to "eternal" does not include the passage of time but refers to a timeless state.

 

[wendykvw]

The afterlife is no longer subject to time. So any reference to "eternal" does not include the passage of time but refers to a timeless state.

Sounds like annihilation. What about the theory energy can not be destroyed?

 

[SkyWriting]

Sounds like annihilation. What about the theory energy can not be destroyed?

Not in this world. But it can outside this world in a Lake of Fire.

 

[hedrick]

Disagree with Matthew where though? Just 25:46? All the other places in Matthew I can think of that have Gehenna Hades and outer darkness where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, don't indicate those being a permanent state.

7:13ff, 7:15ff, 13:30,42, 13:50 all suggest destruction. Most are a bit ambiguous about what precisely happens. The list of references to judgement in Bell, “The Last Word …” has 37 entries for Matthew. They’re not all the outer darkness, but quite a variety of things.

 

[ozso]

7:13ff, 7:15ff, 13:30,42, 13:50 all suggest destruction. Most are a bit ambiguous about what precisely happens. The list of references to judgement in Bell, “The Last Word …” has 37 entries for Matthew. They’re not all the outer darkness, but quite a variety of things.

The problem for me is I see most of that referring to the destruction of Jerusalem. The city in flames, lots of carnage, the surviving Jews being cast out, set adrift, scattered. Loss of home, loss of loved ones, no more holy city, no more temple. Total disaster. Wailing and gnashing of teeth. I came across that interpretation a long time ago and it's stayed with me. I supposed it's a preterist view.

 

[Hmm]

Wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I read also that the wailing and gnashing of teeth was in reference to the wild dogs that lived off the rubbish dump that was Gehenna, which included devouring the corpses of criminals that were also dumped there.

 

[ozso]

I read also that the wailing and gnashing of teeth was in reference to the wild dogs that lived off the rubbish dump that was Gehenna, which included devouring the corpses of criminals that were also dumped there.

Personally I've dismissed the idea that there was a burning dump in the Valley of Hinnom where bodies were tossed in Jesus' time. Unless that is if the Romans happened to turn it into such during the siege. I'm going to have to go though what Josephus wrote to see if there's any such thing is mentioned.

 

[hedrick]

The problem for me is I see most of that referring to the destruction of Jerusalem. The city in flames, lots of carnage, the surviving Jews being cast out, set adrift, scattered. Loss of home, loss of loved ones, no more holy city, no more temple. Total disaster. Wailing and gnashing of teeth. I came across that interpretation a long time ago and it's stayed with me. I supposed it's a preterist view.

The apocalypse, maybe. Not the rest. I’m more inclined to say that there’s such a variety of illustrations that we can’t take any of them literally. And I do think “eternal” is a misleading translation.

 

[Davy]

You mean properly completely understand 100% of it? Personally I find myself discovering new things when reading the bible. That's why it never gets old.

It's not about ideas of someone understanding ALL of God's Word. It's about understanding what God gives us through study (2 Timothy 2:15).

We should... be understanding new things when we do Bible study, no matter how long we have been studying The Bible. That's the Holy Spirit at work, showing us. And it is this that makes God's written Word different from any other literature known to man.

But anyone that thinks we can never be sure of a proper understanding in it from The Holy Spirit, just because so many denominations exist, isn't aware of what The Word of God is, and how it is different than man's literature.

 

[eleos1954]

The passages you shared are earthly punishments. Several passages in, Isaiah, Hebrews, Jeremiah, Philippians , Romans, and Revelation indicate repentance and confession and allegiance. All will know the Lord Jesus and will willing worship and honor Him. Notice it is not forced.


They will no longer need to teach each other to say, “Know the Lord!” because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord; for I will forgive their wrongdoing and never again remember their sins. Jeremiah 31:34

I , the Lord have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear[allegiance]. Isa 45:23

Please answer if you believe God can heal the blind. Thank you.

One has to ask for forgiveness and repent and some won't.

Isaiah

The citation from Isaiah 45:23 supports the thought that all must appear for judgment. “Every knee” and “every tongue” individualizes the summons. The implication is that each one will have to answer for his or her own life and deeds (Rom. 14:12)

Isaiah 45

22Turn to Me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth;

Not all will turn to Him.

 

[DavidPT]

I read also that the wailing and gnashing of teeth was in reference to the wild dogs that lived off the rubbish dump that was Gehenna, which included devouring the corpses of criminals that were also dumped there.

Or it could simply mean when one is cast into hell, meaning the lake of fire, they are cast in bodily. Departed souls obviously don't have teeth, but resurrected bodies would.

 

[Der Alte]

Have you heard of Steven R. Harmon? He received his PH.D from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary Fort Worth, Texas?

Never been there but while I was at my Alma Mater Billy Graham preached in the chapel '82ish . As one might expect everybody wanted to go see Billy. Each student, faculty and staff got one ticket. Since I am married guess who would get to use my 1 ticket? A few days prior to the event I was walking down a hallway and 2 students I didn't know were approaching one said to the other "I'm in the choir I don't need my ticket." "Hold on a minute I need another ticket." He tried to stall me but I said I can go right now." And that is how my wife got to see/hear and meet Billy Graham.

 

[Der Alte]

Do you have any articles or academic papers available?

I have some papers I submitted for credit but no clue where they are.

 

[wendykvw]

One has to ask for forgiveness and repent and some won't.

Isaiah

The citation from Isaiah 45:23 supports the thought that all must appear for judgment. “Every knee” and “every tongue” individualizes the summons. The implication is that each one will have to answer for his or her own life and deeds (Rom. 14:12)

Isaiah 45

22Turn to Me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth;

Not all will turn to Him.

Luke 3:6 All humanity will see salvation. The Greek word is ὄψεται (opsetai) which means all people will experience salvation. According to your interpretation Satan has more infinite wisdom than God. According to the restoration view Satan was defeated by the infinite wisdom of God. Not only did Satan decieve Adam and ruin our relationship with God, the fall has ruined our relationship with others. This why we suff in broken relationships with divorce, family, friends etc. All the broken pieces of the fall will be restored by our creator.

 

[Der Alte]

I read also that the wailing and gnashing of teeth was in reference to the wild dogs that lived off the rubbish dump that was Gehenna, which included devouring the corpses of criminals that were also dumped there.

I suggest you do better research and find credible, verifiable sources to support your arguments.
My proposition, the constantly burning trash dump which was supposedly in Gehenna. It never happened!
There was a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem but it was one valley over, the Kidron valley. Archaeological evidence provided below.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm​

= = = =

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage
The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna – BiblePlaces.com
= = = = = = =​

 

[hedrick]

One has to ask for forgiveness and repent and some won't.

Isaiah

The citation from Isaiah 45:23 supports the thought that all must appear for judgment. “Every knee” and “every tongue” individualizes the summons. The implication is that each one will have to answer for his or her own life and deeds (Rom. 14:12)

Isaiah 45

22Turn to Me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth;

Not all will turn to Him.

Not so sure Paul would agree. He has a fully supernatural view of the world. For him it’s not humans making decisions on their own. It’s God in the process of defeating the powers and principalities. When he talks about sin, it’s mostly not individual wrong acts. Sin is a power oppressing us. What we see in 1 Cor 15 is the final defeat of the oppressors and the triumph of God.

 

[Der Alte]

Luke 3:6 All humanity will see salvation. The Greek word is ὄψεται (opsetai) which means all people will experience salvation. According to your interpretation Satan has more infinite wisdom than God. According to the restoration view Satan was defeated by the infinite wisdom of God. Not only did Satan decieve Adam and ruin our relationship with God, the fall has ruined our relationship with others. This why we suff in broken relationships with divorce, family, friends etc. All the broken pieces of the fall will be restored by our creator.

My Bible has 31,172 vss. Does this one verse cancel all the other verses spoken by Jesus?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.
[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love. [/indent]
Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4;18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not mean “correction.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[eleos1954]

Luke 3:6 All humanity will see salvation. The Greek word is ὄψεται (opsetai) which means all people will experience salvation. According to your interpretation Satan has more infinite wisdom than God. According to the restoration view Satan was defeated by the infinite wisdom of God. Not only did Satan decieve Adam and ruin our relationship with God, the fall has ruined our relationship with others. This why we suff in broken relationships with divorce, family, friends etc. All the broken pieces of the fall will be restored by our creator.

Luke 6

3He went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, 4as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:

“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,

‘Prepare the way for the Lord,

make straight paths for Him.5Every valley shall be filled in,

and every mountain and hill made low.

The crooked ways shall be made straight,

and the rough ways smooth.6And all humanity will see God’s salvation.’ ”

John the Baptist began to preach shortly before Jesus started His public ministry. John called on people to repent of their sin (Luke 3:3). This fulfilled Old Testament prophecies which said a herald would precede the arrival of the Messiah (Malachi 3:1; 4:5–6). In this passage, Luke is quoting from Isaiah 40:3–5. The role of this "voice of one," calling out from the desert (Luke 1:80) is to prepare the people to meet their Savior.

John's preaching ministry was very direct (Luke 3:7), and it was also clear. He did not claim to be the Promised One, instead indicating people should follow Jesus when He arrived (John 1:26–34; 3:30).

In this context, "the salvation of God" is a reference to the Messiah, the Promised One, who is Christ. The prediction is that all people will be made aware of this Savior (Romans 1:18–20), not that all people will be saved by Him (John 3:36). The gospel is universal in its availability: any who want to repent and express faith can be saved by doing so (John 6:37; 2 Peter 3:9). Not all will choose that path (John 3:18).

 

[ozso]

Never been there but while I was at my Alma Mater Billy Graham preached in the chapel '82ish . As one might expect everybody wanted to go see Billy. Each student, faculty and staff got one ticket. Since I am married guess who would get to use my 1 ticket? A few days prior to the event I was walking down a hallway and 2 students I didn't know were approaching one said to the other "I'm in the choir I don't need my ticket." "Hold on a minute I need another ticket." He tried to stall me but I said I can go right now." And that is how my wife got to see/hear and meet Billy Graham.

Billy Graham practically taught universalism.

"What God is doing today is calling people out of the world for His name. Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ" - Billy Graham

 

[Der Alte]

Billy Graham practically taught universalism.
"What God is doing today is calling people out of the world for His name. Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ" - Billy Graham

Help me out here, how do you get universalism from this?