The Dover trial

[HereIStand]

Correct.



First, not just atheists: quite a few christians here argue against, and also make fun of, creationism and alike.

Yes, some Christians sadly do join the herd.

Why do you pretend that it's one or the other?
Science education is about all science, not just biology. Physics, geology, chemistry, biology, math,...



Maybe you should first try and focus to raising the quality of overall education so that they even get qualified to take up research positions at your very own universities... as it stands now, more then half of doctorates in the US are foreigners with an H1B. And make no mistake, the reason for that quite literally is that these US universities don't have enough qualified american candidates.

Overall american education quality, is a bad joke.

It really depends on where in America. Some schools are really top notch, and some home school students really excel.
The prevalence of foreign students in graduate science programs is due in part to qualified Americans pursing other fields -- law school, business school, or medicine. In other countries, as I understand, a person goes into a field based more on the government's perceived need.

 

[Kenny'sID]

There's no such thing as "creation science".

You've been lied to and you swallowed it up like ice cream on a hot day.

It never ends.

No you are the one pedaling the ice cream and maybe others will miss it's tainted and buy it.

I said creationists science, not creation science, but you see what works for you, I suppose. The misread negates everything you just claimed.

Creationists can work with science as well in spite of the other deception floating around here they are antiscience.

Is anyone picking up on this? and how the deceptions work in making one of the most ridiculous theories man has ever come up with believable to you?

I'm going to have to pass on reading the rest of your posts geared towards me, but I do recommend anyone who does, read them carefully.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Attempts to harmonize evolution with the Bible have led to crises of faith. Interesting that you have such little regard for Creationist materials, yet you're here as a supporter of a Christian forum.

 

[Speedwell]

Yes, some Christians sadly do join the herd.

"Some" Christians? Conservative evangelical Protestants are definitely a minority amongst Christians.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It demonstrates the principles of evolution, Yes.

That didn't answer my question. Why do you do that? This thread is full of deception, it's all I've dealt with since I started posting this A.M. I ask for one thing, you say you have it, then with a little twist you sort of say you don't have it (proof). Then once I see what you are presenting is not what I asked for and I choose not to waist my time on something I never intended to waist my time on, (anything other than proof) I'm seen as backing out. Watch what happens here.

Either you have proof of evolution or you do not.

and No, no assumptions aside we can rely on reality to be real.

If you find I've made assumptions, I'll surely discuss them.

First you say flatly, no assumptions, then you back pedal and realize there probably are some. And I'm not just trying to be combative here, all I claim is right there, and it just gets old. You are trying to trick me into engaging into something other than what I agreed to engage in.

Please understand I've already seen the things that don't hold up, and wasted time with them. That is why I now ask for something that proves evolution, plain and simple. If it doesn't do that, we're just going to repeat what has already been done, so no reason to engage to begin with.

Insofar as scientific facts and principles are discussed, they aren't entirely honest at least, or wholly dishonest at other times.

Not seeing a whole lot of honesty here on the other side either.

 

[HereIStand]

"Some" Christians? Conservative evangelical Protestants are definitely a minority amongst Christians.

That is sadly true also. But one need not be in an evangelical church (or a Protestant one) to embrace the truth. I know of a lady in mainline church who publicly shared her faith in a literal understanding of the Genesis Creation account, only to face private ridicule from her pastor and another church member.

 

[Speedwell]

That is sadly true also. But one need not be in an evangelical church (or a Protestant one) to embrace the truth. I know of a lady in mainline church who publicly shared her faith in a literal understanding of the Genesis Creation account, only to face private ridicule from her pastor and another church member.

Yes, that was wrong. Her ignorance should have been met with understanding, not ridicule. But the Christian world is wider than you seem to realize. Even if you lump conservative evangelical and mainline Protestants together you still have a minority. There are over two billion Christians in the world. Some accept biological evolution, some do not. However none but the YECs (confined mostly to the USA) hold with literal inerrancy.

 

[AV1611VET]

I know of a lady in mainline church who publicly shared her faith in a literal understanding of the Genesis Creation account, only to face private ridicule from her pastor and another church member.

Welcome to Earth One, would be my advice to her.

She's going to have to share this planet with scientists until Jesus comes back and puts an end to their rebellion.

Then this earth will be vaporized in a true big bang ...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

... and the rest of us will live happily ever after on Earth Two.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[driewerf]

I'd say it's more like...Of course evolutionists *would* say it that way.

Creationists are anti evolution, and the only thing that is clear is the claim "anti science" is far from factual.

And for being anti-evolution (without any scientific evidence on their side) creationists are ready to throw out of the window geology, geophysics, plate tectonics, genetics, comparative anatomy, the theory of relativity, nuclear physics, thermodynamics, sedimentology, dendrochronology, astrophysics, spectroscopy, climatology, glaciology.

But anti science they aren't.

 

[Kenny'sID]

And for being anti-evolution (without any scientific evidence on their side) creationists are ready to throw out of the window geology, geophysics, plate tectonics, genetics, comparative anatomy, the theory of relativity, nuclear physics, thermodynamics, sedimentology, dendrochronology, astrophysics, spectroscopy, climatology, glaciology.

There ya' go again, you are indicating all kinds of evidence, as you name off a multitude of nothings.

And that my friends is your proof evolution is a fact beyond any doubt.

Either tell me how any one of those things prove evolution, or admit to others here that is just another clear and obvious deception, and then take some me time to think about what you keep doing here to pull the wool over the eyes of yourself and others.

Unbelievable.

 

[HereIStand]

Yes, that was wrong. Her ignorance should have been met with understanding, not ridicule. But the Christian world is wider than you seem to realize. Even if you lump conservative evangelical and mainline Protestants together you still have a minority. There are over two billion Christians in the world. Some accept biological evolution, some do not. However none but the YECs (confined mostly to the USA) hold with literal inerrancy.

Actually it seems that this poor lady (and others like her) meets the arrogance of her pastor and fellow church members with understanding. Not directly, but by toling on at her church.

Yes, I'm aware that (sadly) those who hold to young earth creationism or even old earth intelligent design are in the minority. But truth is never a matter of counting noses, or following the will of the majority.

 

[Speedwell]

There ya' go again, you are indicating all kinds of evidence, as you name off a multitude of nothings.

And that my friends is your proof evolution is a fact beyond any doubt.

Either tell me how any one of those things prove evolution, or admit to others here that is just another clear and obvious deception, and then take some me time to think about what you keep doing here to pull the wool over the eyes of yourself and others.

Unbelievable.

No one here is trying to prove that the theory of evolution is "a fact beyond any doubt."

 

[Speedwell]

Actually it seems that this poor lady (and others like her) meets the arrogance of her pastor and fellow church members with understanding. Not directly, but by toling on at her church.

Yes, I'm aware that (sadly) those who hold to young earth creationism or even old earth intelligent design are in the minority. But truth is never a matter of counting noses, or following the will of the majority.

No, the truth in this case rests in good science which neither YECism or ID has any of. It rises above the creationist falsehood that those who reject YECism and ID are rejecting divine creation.

 

[PsychoSarah]

That is sadly true also. But one need not be in an evangelical church (or a Protestant one) to embrace the truth. I know of a lady in mainline church who publicly shared her faith in a literal understanding of the Genesis Creation account, only to face private ridicule from her pastor and another church member.

Strange that she got ridicule from her pastor. Furthermore, no one is suggesting that literal belief in the bible is exclusive to only some denominations. I would propose, however, that it is more common among those that belong to certain denominations over other.

 

[HereIStand]

No, the truth in this case rests in good science which neither YECism or ID has any of. It rises above the creationist falsehood that those who reject YECism and ID are rejecting divine creation.

Good science seems to mean embracing evolution. The YEC and ID movements are full of people with scientific degrees from secular institutions. They of all people should know better if disbelieving evolution is simply a matter of a lack of education. I wouldn't say that those are not on board with YEC and ID reject divine creation.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No one here is trying to prove that the theory of evolution is "a fact beyond any doubt."

It's put out there as fact all them time now days, so I have no reason to believe that isn't what's happening. But ether way indicating it's even theory with a bunch of nothing is the same deception I mentioned, so my point remains the same.

 

[Speedwell]

Good science seems to mean embracing evolution.

It certainly is the best option at the present time.

The YEC and ID movements are full of people with scientific degrees from secular institutions.

That may be, but they have no yet produced any good science.

They of all people should know better if disbelieving evolution is simply a matter of a lack of education.

Nobody is saying that it is. Most of them have merely been led astray by the doctrine of literal inerrancy.

I wouldn't say that those are not on board with YEC and ID reject divine creation.

Maybe you would not, but many of your coreligionists are adamant about it. I know better. For my sins, I had to live in the Bible Belt for a while, an official "Bible-hating, Christ-denying commie"

 

[Speedwell]

It's put out there as fact all them time now days, so I have no reason to believe that isn't what's happening. But ether way indicating it's even theory with a bunch of nothing is the same deception I mentioned, so my point remains the same.

LOL! It's only a fact if you compare it to biblical creationism.

 

[Astrophile]

The earth and the universe may well be billions of years old but life was created about 2000 years ago.

Is this right? Were Aristotle (384-322 BC) and Ramesses III (reigned about 1186-1155 BC) real people, since they lived more than 2000 years ago? Come to that, were Abraham, Moses, David and Ezra real people?

 

[Kenny'sID]

LOL! It's only a fact if you compare it to biblical creationism.

Oh? Are you saying you don't believe in the bible?

I'd say I'm the one who should be laughing...it's fact or it's not.