The Dover trial

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Speedwell

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should have driven a stake through the heart of anti-science "education", but no, these people are determined to push America back to the Dark Ages. I'm glad I don't live there.

Revamped "Anti-Science" Education Bills in U.S. Find Success
It's not really an "anti science" movement, except strategically. Creationism is just one front in the war being waged by conservative Evangelical Protestants to impose their right-wing political agenda on the rest of us.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Wonderful news. Any time evolutionists and climate changers feel threatened, things are moving in the right direction.

"BACK-DOOR APPROACH"

Typical news. Any time creationists resort to deception and smokescreens, it shows the emptiness of their position and their disregard for the truth.
 
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Wonderful news. Any time evolutionists and climate changers feel threatened, things are moving in the right direction.
An "evolutionist" is one who believes in evolution. Hardly anyone does. It is concluded from the evidence. See Viruses that prove common descent

Even with a large proportion of American teachers either scared of teaching biology, or actively opposed to it, and even given the opportunity to teach about religion outside of science classes, you still need to use sneaky methods because you have no scientific case. If you had a scientific case, you would have no problems having it accepted as part of the science curriculum. What you are really demonstrating is your dishonesty.
 
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HereIStand

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An "evolutionist" is one who believes in evolution. Hardly anyone does. It is concluded from the evidence. See Viruses that prove common descent

Even with a large proportion of American teachers either scared of teaching biology, or actively opposed to it, and even given the opportunity to teach about religion outside of science classes, you still need to use sneaky methods because you have no scientific case. If you had a scientific case, you would have no problems having it accepted as part of the science curriculum. What you are really demonstrating is your dishonesty.
Wait. I've not seen any evidence of fear in teaching biology, or opposition to it among teachers. Nothing resembling Christianity could be taught in public schools (at least not officially). But evolution should be taught. Darwin should be read. So students can understand the Malthusian brutality that it is.
 
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Speedwell

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Wait. I've not seen any evidence of fear in teaching biology, or opposition to it among teachers. Nothing resembling Christianity could be taught in public schools (at least not officially). But evolution should be taught. Darwin should be read. So students can understand the Malthusian brutality that it is.
1. Creationism is actually taught in about 20% of public schools already--mostly in the Bible Belt where they can get away with it.
2. Creationism is not the same thing as Christianity. There are even Christian schools which do not teach creationism.
3. Nobody much reads Darwin any more. Evolutionary biology has moved on.
 
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mark kennedy

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Dover ended with a decision that due to the fact that the Intelligent Designer must be God, it violates the establishment clause.

The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board's ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents. (Dover Decision)
It's disturbing how many legislative bills are being passed, even right here in Indiana. What I'm finding though isn't anyone trying to teach creationism, if anyone is I haven't found any trace of it. What the one in Oklahoma suggests is that any controversial issue must be religiously neutral:

This section only protects the teaching of scientific information and shall not be construed to promote any religious or nonreligious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs or nonbeliefs or promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion. (Oklahoma Science Education Act. SENATE BILL NO. 393)
Apparently this isn't the same thing as Dover where they wanted to introduce a textbook, originally written to promote Creationism. They had went through and simply edited the term creationism and replaced it with intelligent design. Dean Kenyan was the author and one of the earliest advocates for scientific creationism, something I have never really endorsed or found especially useful. I'm a Biblical creationist and I've never advocated teaching such a profoundly religious doctrine in a public school, it's just ripe for abuse and distortion.

This flurry of bills appears to open the door to controversies like creationism, I hope not but it might. There is another issue that might be in the mind of the legislatures, climate change.

I like the optimism here, that school age children can learn to understand controversial scientific issues by exploring both sides, based on the scientific data. Shooting holes in Darwinian natural history is all too easy, scientists were doing it long before creationists started in on Darwinism. I don't think that is where this is going, I think they might be interested in letting students explore skepticism regarding climate change without being branded a climate change denier, equivocating skepticism with the scientific consensus with denying the holocaust.

I don't want creationism taught in the public schools, I think it's perfectly fine being explored independent of institutionalized education. I was greatly encouraged when the Dover decision came down because I cherish religious freedom and I like the fact that religion is still being protected from fall out from political controversy.

I don't know how I really feel about this to be honest, let's hope the establishment clause holds the line and the schools apply this new legislation sparingly and cautiously.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Kenny'sID

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Typical news. Any time creationists resort to deception and smokescreens, it shows the emptiness of their position and their disregard for the truth.


I can hardly contain myself here, lol.

And evolutionists would NEVER ever do that...right?
 
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JackRT

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3. Nobody much reads Darwin any more. Evolutionary biology has moved on.

Darwinism Must Die So That Evolution May Live --- By CARL SAFINA

“You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat-catching,” Robert Darwin told his son, “and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.” Yet the feckless boy is everywhere. Charles Darwin gets so much credit, we can’t distinguish evolution from him. Equating evolution with Charles Darwin ignores 150 years of discoveries, including most of what scientists understand about evolution. Such as: Gregor Mendel’s patterns of heredity (which gave Darwin’s idea of natural selection a mechanism — genetics — by which it could work); the discovery of DNA (which gave genetics a mechanism and lets us see evolutionary lineages); developmental biology (which gives DNA a mechanism); studies documenting evolution in nature (which converted the hypothetical to observable fact); evolution’s role in medicine and disease (bringing immediate relevance to the topic); and more. By propounding “Darwinism,” even scientists and science writers perpetuate an impression that evolution is about one man, one book, one “theory.” The ninth-century Buddhist master Lin Chi said, “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.” The point is that making a master teacher into a sacred fetish misses the essence of his teaching. So let us now kill Darwin.

That all life is related by common ancestry, and that populations change form over time, are the broad strokes and fine brushwork of evolution. But Darwin was late to the party. His grandfather, and others, believed new species evolved. Farmers and fanciers continually created new plant and animal varieties by selecting who survived to breed, thus handing Charles Darwin an idea. All Darwin perceived was that selection must work in nature, too. In 1859, Darwin’s perception and evidence became “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life.” Few realize he published 8 books before and 10 books after “Origin.” He wrote seminal books on orchids, insects, barnacles and corals. He figured out how atolls form, and why they’re tropical. Credit Darwin’s towering genius. No mind ran so freely, so widely or so freshly over the hills and vales of existence. But there’s a limit to how much credit is reasonable. Parking evolution with Charles Darwin overlooks the limits of his time and all subsequent progress.

Science was primitive in Darwin’s day. Ships had no engines. Not until 1842, six years after Darwin’s Beagle voyage, did Richard Owen coin the term “dinosaur.” Darwin was an adult before scientists began debating whether germs caused disease and whether physicians should clean their instruments. In 1850s London, John Snow fought cholera unaware that bacteria caused it. Not until 1857 did Johann Carl Fuhlrott and Hermann Schaaffhausen announce that unusual bones from the Neander Valley in Germany were perhaps remains of a very old human race. In 1860 Louis Pasteur performed experiments that eventually disproved “spontaneous generation,” the idea that life continually arose from nonliving things. Science has marched on. But evolution can seem uniquely stuck on its founder. We don’t call astronomy Copernicism, nor gravity Newtonism. “Darwinism” implies an ideology adhering to one man’s dictates, like Marxism. And “isms” (capitalism, Catholicism, racism) are not science.

“Darwinism” implies that biological scientists “believe in” Darwin’s “theory.” It’s as if, since 1860, scientists have just ditto-headed Darwin rather than challenging and testing his ideas, or adding vast new knowledge.
Using phrases like “Darwinian selection” or “Darwinian evolution” implies there must be another kind of evolution at work, a process that can be described with another adjective. For instance, “Newtonian physics” distinguishes the mechanical physics Newton explored from subatomic quantum physics. So “Darwinian evolution” raises a question: What’s the other evolution? Into the breach: intelligent design. I am not quite saying Darwinism gave rise to creationism, though the “isms” imply equivalence. But the term “Darwinian” built a stage upon which “intelligent” could share the spotlight.

Charles Darwin didn’t invent a belief system. He had an idea, not an ideology. The idea spawned a discipline, not disciples. He spent 20-plus years amassing and assessing the evidence and implications of similar, yet differing, creatures separated in time (fossils) or in space (islands). That’s science. That’s why Darwin must go.

Almost everything we understand about evolution came after Darwin, not from him. He knew nothing of heredity or genetics, both crucial to evolution. Evolution wasn’t even Darwin’s idea. Darwin’s grandfather Erasmus believed life evolved from a single ancestor. “Shall we conjecture that one and the same kind of living filaments is and has been the cause of all organic life?” he wrote in “Zoonomia” in 1794. He just couldn’t figure out how. Charles Darwin was after the how. Thinking about farmers’ selective breeding, considering the high mortality of seeds and wild animals, he surmised that natural conditions acted as a filter determining which individuals survived to breed more individuals like themselves. He called this filter “natural selection.” What Darwin had to say about evolution basically begins and ends right there. Darwin took the tiniest step beyond common knowledge. Yet because he perceived — correctly — a mechanism by which life diversifies, his insight packed sweeping power.

But he wasn’t alone. Darwin had been incubating his thesis for two decades when Alfred Russel Wallace wrote to him from Southeast Asia, independently outlining the same idea. Fearing a scoop, Darwin’s colleagues arranged a public presentation crediting both men. It was an idea whose time had come, with or without Darwin. Darwin penned the magnum opus. Yet there were weaknesses. Individual variation underpinned the idea, but what created variants? Worse, people thought traits of both parents blended in the offspring, so wouldn’t a successful trait be diluted out of existence in a few generations? Because Darwin and colleagues were ignorant of genes and the mechanics of inheritance, they couldn’t fully understand evolution.

Gregor Mendel, an Austrian monk, discovered that in pea plants inheritance of individual traits followed patterns. Superiors burned his papers posthumously in 1884. Not until Mendel’s rediscovered “genetics” met Darwin’s natural selection in the “modern synthesis” of the 1920s did science take a giant step toward understanding evolutionary mechanics. Rosalind Franklin, James Watson and Francis Crick bestowed the next leap: DNA, the structure and mechanism of variation and inheritance.

Darwin’s intellect, humility (“It is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance”) and prescience astonish more as scientists clarify, in detail he never imagined, how much he got right. But our understanding of how life works since Darwin won’t swim in the public pool of ideas until we kill the cult of Darwinism. Only when we fully acknowledge the subsequent century and a half of value added can we really appreciate both Darwin’s genius and the fact that evolution is life’s driving force, with or without Darwin.
 
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Kenny'sID

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should have driven a stake through the heart of anti-science "education", but no, these people are determined to push America back to the Dark Ages. I'm glad I don't live there.

Revamped "Anti-Science" Education Bills in U.S. Find Success

What anti-science? Are you actually saying because a creationists science doesn't agree with yours/evolutionary, then they must be against science period?

Honestly, I don't see the logic unless it is to deceive, but maybe you can clear it up for me.
 
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mark kennedy

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Wait. I've not seen any evidence of fear in teaching biology, or opposition to it among teachers. Nothing resembling Christianity could be taught in public schools (at least not officially). But evolution should be taught. Darwin should be read. So students can understand the Malthusian brutality that it is.
I think it would be helpful if the curriculum focused more on how to explore scientific evidence regardless of the actual controversy. An emphasis on genetics could pretty much ignore Darwinian/Malthusian natural selection and still make scientific research more comprehensive. I don't want to see another round of culture wars polluting an otherwise interesting intellectual controversy. The doctrine of creation is profoundly religious, I know of know way of teaching it without the testimony of Scripture being contrasted with Darwinian naturalistic assumptions. I see no reason this should be taught in a classroom setting, it's too inextricably linked to religious conviction.
 
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What anti-science? Are you actually saying because a creationists science doesn't agree with yours/evolutionary, then they must be against science period?

Honestly, I don't see the logic unless it is to deceive, but maybe you can clear it up for me.
The Dover Trial ruled that ID wasn't scientific. That was really just a legal adjudication of the scientific community's already held position.
See my last post. But the fact that you even have to ask after all you've seen, only means you will never see it, pointed out or not.
I've seen them, but I wanted to step through a logical process with you. Next step, Who exposed those Deceptions and smokescreens perpetrated by these 'evolutionists'?
 
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HereIStand

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1. Creationism is actually taught in about 20% of public schools already--mostly in the Bible Belt where they can get away with it.
2. Creationism is not the same thing as Christianity. There are even Christian schools which do not teach creationism.
3. Nobody much reads Darwin any more. Evolutionary biology has moved on.
1. I'm in the buckle of Bible belt (Alabama) and I'm unaware of creationism being taught in public schools.
2. Agree that creationism and Christianity are distinct. Yes, there are Christian schools that would (sadly) not teach creationism.
3. Darwin may not be read first-hand much anymore. But evolutionary biology is still based on his assumptions.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Examples?

Since we are on the subject of evolutionists smokescreens and deception, could you offer example that proves their whole agenda is not a smoke screen/deception. I mean we might as well go all the way with this.

Just a quick rundown on proof evolution is the reason for all life as we know it today will be fine.
 
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