The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[stuart lawrence]

Stuart:

So you are saying the sin not unto death (in 1 John 5) is any sin that a believer does while they have a belief on Jesus?



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Oh dear

All sin leads to death if you do not believe in Jesus/ he is your saviour from sin

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The only law written on stone was the TC, law you believe the christian is under unto righteousness.
Old law and NC law

Where is it say in Scripture New Covenant Law is abrogated in regards to it's after life dire consequences?
If maybe you can show us where not all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.
Maybe you can show us an example where Jesus or one of his followers reverses what our Lord said in Matthew 6:15. Please explain where this change in God's Word took place later.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Oh dear

All sin leads to death if you do not believe in Jesus/ he is your saviour from sin

I am talking about the sin that does NOT lead unto death (1 John 5:17).

What is the sin that does NOT lead unto death?


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[stuart lawrence]

Where is it say in Scripture New Covenant Law is abrogated in regards to it's after life dire consequences?
If maybe you can show us where not all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.
Maybe you can show us an example where Jesus or one of his followers reverses what our Lord said in Matthew 6:15. Please explain where this change in God's Word took place later.


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You just quoted the TC/ law on stone was the ministration of death. You then said that was old law, in other words not NC law.
You are totally mixed up jason

 

[stuart lawrence]

I am talking about the sin that does NOT lead unto death (1 John 5:17).

What is the sin that does NOT lead unto death?
It appears that you simply cannot see what this verse is saying because it conflicts with your personal belief.


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Already answered you. If you have a saviour from sin, if you accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour, then he paid the price of your sins didn't he

 

[stuart lawrence]

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away."(2 Corinthians 3:7).

Sounds like this is the Old Testament Law (the Law of Moses) and not New Covenant Law to me.


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So Jason acknowledges the TC were the ministration of death. But tells us we are under a righteousness of observing this ministration of death.

You will be crushed if you believe such people.
And they themselves cannot obey this ministration of death of course.
Demanding of you what they cannot attain to themselves, is showing no love to your neighbour.
It is contradiction after contradiction

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Already answered you. If you have a saviour from sin, if you accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour, then he paid the price of your sins didn't he

So then in 1 John 5, why are the brethren praying so as to give LIFE to the believer who is committing a "sin not unto death"?

What exactly is LIFE referring to here?
Why are they bothering to pray for this individual?

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[stuart lawrence]

So then in 1 John 5, why are the brethren praying so as to give LIFE to the believer who is committing a "sin not unto death"?

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If anyone sees his BROTHER.....

If he is a Christians brother he is obviously in a saved state isn't he!
Life in respect of overcoming the sin.

 

[stuart lawrence]

So then in 1 John 5, why are the brethren praying so as to give LIFE to the believer who is committing a "sin not unto death"?

What exactly is LIFE referring to here?
Why are they bothering to pray for this individual?

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So Jason
Why do you insist the Christian must live under a law of righteousness concerning law you quote is the ministration of death?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If anyone sees his BROTHER.....

If he is a Christians brother he is obviously in a saved state isn't he!
Life in respect of overcoming the sin.

We agree on the overcoming one's sin part in relation to life, but we disagree still on what a sin not unto death is. I believe 1 John 1:9 is the sin not unto death.

But why call it life?
How is it life if they will forever have life no matter what they do?


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[stuart lawrence]

We agree on the overcoming one's sin part in relation to life, but we disagree still on what a sin not unto death is. I believe 1 John 1:9 defines this.

But why call it life?
How is it life if they will forever have life no matter what they do?


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I answered your question now answer mine. Stop deflecting.
Why do you insist the Christian must live under a righteousness of observing law you quote as being the ministration of death?

 

[stuart lawrence]

We agree on the overcoming one's sin part in relation to life, but we disagree still on what a sin not unto death is. I believe 1 John 1:9 is the sin not unto death.

But why call it life?
How is it life if they will forever have life no matter what they do?


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BTW
Your question should be:

What IS the sin unto death, not what is not a sin unto death.

As the world's sin is unbelief in Christ( john16:9), it would stand to reason that IS the sin unto death:

If we disown him
He must disown us
If we are faithless
He remains faithful
For he cannot disown himself
2Tim2:12&13

If you disowned Christ you no longer have a saviour from your sin. You are unto death

Your last question relates to OSAS, as I have told you time and time again I dont discuss that on this website.

But in the verse you quoted, the man is referred to as a brother. A brother is part of the family isn't he.

As a courtesy to you I further responded. I will respond to no more questions until you answer mine

 

[ToBeLoved]

Where is it say in Scripture New Covenant Law is abrogated in regards to it's after life dire consequences?
If maybe you can show us where not all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.
Maybe you can show us an example where Jesus or one of his followers reverses what our Lord said in Matthew 6:15. Please explain where this change in God's Word took place later.


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What about forgiven do you not understand. Your wife is a saint.

 

[JLB777]

I have previously stated if an alcoholic who beats his wife, and is a habitual thief who constantly uses fouls language claims to have become a Christian, and a couple of months later nothing has changed, he proves he had dead faith. He was never truly born again in the first place
So I guess we agree.

Grace us a hard thing to understand, impossible through the human intellect.
For the whole of your life, from first to last you must live under a righteousness apart from observing the law.
The person who does this, and has asked Christ to be Lord and Saviour of their life, and in their heart truly loves God, has no need to fear warnings in scripture, or be told of the need to do works.
There is nothing more they will in their heart want to do than to please and obey God, for they live him.
For these people the power of sin is broken in their lives, for the power of sin is the law( of righteousness) 1cor15:56
The people who need to remind themselves they need to do good works are those who have not surrendered their lives to Christ and in their hearts do not truly love him above all else. And they are also the people who need to heed the warnings of scripture

Here us what the scripture says about Grace, and what grace teaches us about salvation.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14

• For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that:

I believe the Church has been taught some things about grace that may not be true. Teaching people that because we are under grace, that means we can sin, and there will be no consequences, when just the opposite is true, that those who are under grace, are under a stricter obligation, than those who were under the law.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

• how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Grace is the Holy Spirit; The Spirit of Grace, the empowering blessing from God to us to grant us the ability to do what we can not do, without it.

Grace is the Holy Spirit, who teaches us, and comforts us, and empowers us to live in dominion over sin, and the devil.

Grace is God's power within us to live according to the Spirit, in which we practice righteousness, rather than be enslaved by the sin in our flesh.

• For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that:

denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.

• What does your grace teach you?

JLB

 

[1stcenturylady]

Here us what the scripture says about Grace, and what grace teaches us about salvation.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14

• For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that:

I believe the Church has been taught some things about grace that may not be true. Teaching people that because we are under grace, that means we can sin, and there will be no consequences, when just the opposite is true, that those who are under grace, are under a stricter obligation, than those who were under the law.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

• how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Grace is the Holy Spirit; The Spirit of Grace, the empowering blessing from God to us to grant us the ability to do what we can not do, without it.

Grace is the Holy Spirit, who teaches us, and comforts us, and empowers us to live in dominion over sin, and the devil.

Grace is God's power within us to live according to the Spirit, in which we practice righteousness, rather than be enslaved by the sin in our flesh.

• For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that:

denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.

• What does your grace teach you?

JLB

Exactly the same thing. You are the first person to say what I've been saying. And what the apostles are saying. Have you ever noticed Hebrew styles of writing. One is called "doubling" saying the same thing in two different ways.

Acts 4:33 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Grace is the power of God given to all who truly repent from sin, and turn toward Christ. (Acts 2:38) They are now dead to sin. (Romans 6:1-2), and we no longer walk in the flesh, but in the Spirit. (Romans 8:8-9)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

BTW
Your question should be:

What IS the sin unto death, not what is not a sin unto death.

As the world's sin is unbelief in Christ( john16:9), it would stand to reason that IS the sin unto death:

If we disown him
He must disown us
If we are faithless
He remains faithful
For he cannot disown himself
2Tim2:12&13

If you disowned Christ you no longer have a saviour from your sin. You are unto death

Your last question relates to OSAS, as I have told you time and time again I dont discuss that on this website.

But in the verse you quoted, the man is referred to as a brother. A brother is part of the family isn't he.

As a courtesy to you I further responded. I will respond to no more questions until you answer mine

Again, why call overcoming sin as "LIFE" in 1 John 5 when one already has "LIFE" by having a belief on Jesus? By what you said to me in other posts, I get the impression that overcoming sin is not all that important to you. Belief in Jesus and that you are free from the punishment of all of God's laws. That's where is at for you. Supposedly having this kind of belief is when overcoming sin happens for you and others. However, I am not convinced of that. You have said on this forum that you are not perfect and you sin. You implied before that smoking was not sin. Just Google the bad effects of how smoking destroys the body. God says in His Word He will destroy anyone who destroys his temple. You also do not encourage people to obey the commands in the New Covenant because you have continually mocked me repeatedly for bringing them up. Instead of encouraging me and others to obey God, it sounds like you want me to disobey Him (by not doing a study on the commands in the New Testament) or you want me to mimimize the consequences of sin (as taught in the Bible). As if minimizing the importance of something will help me to obey that thing. You also stated before that a person is not under the moral law salvation wise. You have falsely accused me several times on this thread. So I do not see how your belief is as good as you say it is (if it does not lead to a good outcome for your own life with a simple discussion of God's Word online).

As for your belief and unwillingness to discuss Eternal Security: Yes, you more than likely do not believe in Eternal Security, but you believe "Sin Does Not Lead To Spiritual Death For the Believer" if they genuinely have a belief in Jesus as their Savior. I have ran into others like you before. You no doubt do not want to discuss Eternal Security because in your view to discuss such a thing is a futile excercise. For in your view you think they are probably apostasizing because you see it as an issue of unbelief in Christ. At least that is my guess anyways.

But I am not your master and nor am I obligated to listen to what you have to say. I am free to speak against Eternal Security and any other belief that seeks to turn God's grace into a license for immorality. God is good. He will not condone a believer for living in willful rebellious evil or sin. Even if one were to live holy, to tell others there is no dire after death consequences to sin is to turn God's grace into a license for sin (if one does not explain themselves properly). One cannot plan to do future evil by saying they will always sin in this life as a matter of fact as a part of some uncontrollable sin nature. Believers can overcome sin. While I have brought forth verses to show that a believer can be perfect and overcome sin, I am not entirely convinced you are for that position (Although that is what you stated your belief was in 1 John 5).

This is the contradiction.
On one hand the Eternal Security crowd says a believer will live more holy and Christ like.
Yet on the other hand, they will say they can willingly admit they will sin again at some point (whether it be a little or a lot) and yet they are still saved.

That is what this thread is all about. The double message of Eternal Security.
Eternal Security. It is the topic of discussion of this thread. Yet, you do not want to discuss Eternal Security. Strange how you want to talk within this thread and yet you are unwilling to address the actual topic. I would say that you are off topic in discussion if you are not willing to address the actual thread topic.



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[Bible Highlighter]

Exactly the same thing. You are the first person to say what I've been saying. And what the apostles are saying. Have you ever noticed Hebrew styles of writing. One is called "doubling" saying the same thing in two different ways.

Acts 4:33 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Grace is the power of God given to all who truly repent from sin, and turn toward Christ. (Acts 2:38) They are now dead to sin. (Romans 6:1-2), and we no longer walk in the flesh, but in the Spirit. (Romans 8:8-9)

Well, add me to that list. I also agree with what he has said in regards to his recent post, as well. I just try to be a little more cautious when talking about the Holy Spirit. Not that there is anything wrong with others doing so of course. We are all different in our approach in telling others about the love of Christ and the good news.


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[Anto9us]

Have you ever noticed Hebrew styles of writing. One is called "doubling" saying the same thing in two different ways.

Yeah -- that doubling is called Parallelism, and there are different forms of it, and Hebrew poetry is full of it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What about forgiven do you not understand.

Jesus says if you do not forgive, the Father will not forgive you (Matthew 6:15).
Jesus did not preach these words during his ministry just so that they could later become undone.

Your wife is a saint.

What are you talking about?


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[Bible Highlighter]

I answered your question now answer mine. Stop deflecting.
Why do you insist the Christian must live under a righteousness of observing law you quote as being the ministration of death?

The topic of discussion of this thread is Eternal Security actually.
The double message of Eternal Security.
Eternal Security.
It is the topic of this thread.
Please stay on topic.

Thank you.


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