The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[Bible Highlighter]

No, I said I am going to read with an OPEN mind. I regularly do this.

Then why are you saying you will talk to Stuart about this and not me? Or is that not what you are saying?


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[1stcenturylady]

Jason and Stuart,

You two would be great in a pillow fight!

 

[1stcenturylady]

Then why are you saying you will talk to Stuart about this and not me? Or is that not what you are saying?


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No, we are going to read, separately, before any more discussion. At least that is what I was going to do. I see Stu has been at it again today with you. Oh well. I'm still going to read with an OPEN mind. Stu can do what he will. I'm doing this now because of a verse I caught in Romans 7 that seemed the same as in Romans 6. I wanted to put it in context of all the letters. And I think I found the answer in Romans 8 last night. It is the same as I've been saying all along, but will still finish reading through Jude.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, we are going to read, separately, before any more discussion. At least that is what I was going to do. I see Stu has been at it again today with you. Oh well. I'm still going to read with an OPEN mind. Stu can do what he will. I'm doing this now because of a verse I caught in Romans 7 that seemed the same as in Romans 6. I wanted to put it in context of all the letters. And I think I found the answer in Romans 8 last night. It is the same as I've been saying all along, but will still finish reading through Jude.

Okay. That is cool. Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate that.

I would like to also join in on this reading. I will take notes, as well; And pray for more understanding, too. What chapters are we reading?

What verse in Romans 7 seems the same as the one in Romans 6? You can PM me this if you like.

Anyways, peace be unto this fine day, sister. May you please strong in the Lord and the power of His might always.


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[Dan61861]

Then why are you saying you will talk to Stuart about this and not me? Or is that not what you are saying?


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Shouldn't you be pointing to neither you or Stuart but to God about this? Follow no man, put your confidence in no man.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[1stcenturylady]

Okay. That is cool. Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate that.

I would like to also join in on this reading. I will take notes, as well; And pray for more understanding, too. What chapters are we reading?

What verse in Romans 7 seems the same as the one in Romans 6? You can PM me this if you like.

Anyways, peace be unto this fine day, sister. May you please strong in the Lord and the power of His might always.


...

We are reading the NT from Romans through Jude. It was verse 8, last sentence.

7:8b For apart from the law sin was dead.

6:2b How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

I wanted to see if we merely died to the law which revealed sin, or sin itself. The answer I found last night which I already believed is both. You and stuart are both right, but can't agree because you are both coming at it from opposite sides of the pendulum, and the center is the Holy Spirit. And you both understand the Holy Spirit's role but rarely use it, so seldom agree, if ever.

The answer is Romans 8:2, and why Christ is the end of the law (stuart), and yet we still have law (you). We are dead to the law, but those SAME moral laws are written on our hearts by the Spirit. We are under the LAW OF THE SPIRIT, not the law that says not to do something, as stuart pointed out (don't think of a pink bunnie - you automatically DO think of a pink bunnie.)

Here in context: 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death (Thou shalt NOT). 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh (entertaining pink bunnies), God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1 John 1:7 New King James Version (NKJV)

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[ToBeLoved]

In Romans 7:14-24: Paul speaking as a Pharisee and he did not know about this NT Law yet and he did not know Jesus yet.

Now, in Romans 7:4, it says we have died to the Law. This is not in view of the New Covenant commands that says for us to "not covet" etc. (the moral law) because Paul says elsewhere that those who covet will not inherit the Kingdom of God (See Ephesians 5:5).

How did you come to this theology? This is totally, 100% wrong.

Paul is not speaking as a Pharisee, Paul is speaking as a New Covenant, saved believer in Jesus Christ.

Don't know where you got the position or ever determined what you have from Romans.

 

[stuart lawrence]

We are reading the NT from Romans through Jude. It was verse 8, last sentence.

7:8b For apart from the law sin was dead.

6:2b How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

I wanted to see if we merely died to the law which revealed sin, or sin itself. The answer I found last night which I already believed is both. You and stuart are both right, but can't agree because you are both coming at it from opposite sides of the pendulum, and the center is the Holy Spirit. And you both understand the Holy Spirit's role but rarely use it, so seldom agree, if ever.

The answer is Romans 8:2, and why Christ is the end of the law (stuart), and yet we still have law (you). We are dead to the law, but those SAME moral laws are written on our hearts by the Spirit. We are under the LAW OF THE SPIRIT, not the law that says not to do something, as stuart pointed out (don't think of a pink bunnie - you automatically DO think of a pink bunnie.)

Here in context: 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death (Thou shalt NOT). 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh (entertaining pink bunnies), God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1 John 1:7 New King James Version (NKJV)

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

May I just say. I have relentlessly stated Christ did not abolish the law. The moral law exists unshakeable. I agree with you. It is in our hearts.
The point of difference with Jason is.
It ain't a law of righteousness/ righteousness of observing the law.

I may have misread what you meant. But you seemed to suggest I believe the moral law got abolished/ it doesn't exist. My apologies if I misread what you wrote

 

[stuart lawrence]

And I was just called prideful.

Okay.
I guess we are back to being falsely accused again.

Oh and where is the explanation on Ephesians 5:5?


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I would be happy to address eph5:5, once you acknowledge the obvious, coveting is incorporated in the law mentioned in rom7:4-6

I'm afraid true debate is impossible if you refuse to accept the clear statements of scripture, and just want to detract from them.

 

[stuart lawrence]

We are reading the NT from Romans through Jude. It was verse 8, last sentence.

7:8b For apart from the law sin was dead.

6:2b How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

I wanted to see if we merely died to the law which revealed sin, or sin itself. The answer I found last night which I already believed is both. You and stuart are both right, but can't agree because you are both coming at it from opposite sides of the pendulum, and the center is the Holy Spirit. And you both understand the Holy Spirit's role but rarely use it, so seldom agree, if ever.

The answer is Romans 8:2, and why Christ is the end of the law (stuart), and yet we still have law (you). We are dead to the law, but those SAME moral laws are written on our hearts by the Spirit. We are under the LAW OF THE SPIRIT, not the law that says not to do something, as stuart pointed out (don't think of a pink bunnie - you automatically DO think of a pink bunnie.)

Here in context: 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death (Thou shalt NOT). 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh (entertaining pink bunnies), God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1 John 1:7 New King James Version (NKJV)

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

BTW
There is much I would agree with in what you wrote.
The blueprint of the message as it were is indeed:

Die to a law of righteousness( thou shalt not), and sin shall not be your master, as you follow after the Holy Spirit who sanctifies you.

But do we interpret that, as saying as soon as you fail to be sinless, you have not followed after the holy spirit, and therefore are back under a law of righteousness/ condemned state where sin shall be your master?
There we may disagree.
A Jewish Christian said something like( can't remember his exact words):

The Quran is written to take a literal reading of it. A bit like reading an act of parliament lol. The Bible is not written that way


I may not have worded his comment that well, but it made a great deal of sense to me. Hope you understand what I am getting at.

IE
Jesus said:
If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away.

I'm sure many Christians have sinned with their eyes( If not all) but I don't know of any who then plucked an eye out and threw it away

 

[Dan61861]

This dispute was actually settled in Acts 15.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[stuart lawrence]

This dispute was actually settled in Acts 15.

In Christ
Daniel

Yes, at the council of Jerusalem, gentile converts were asked to follow four Jewish laws, three of which it is widely believed were to appease Jewish legalists( Pharisees) who had converted to Christianity.
Interestingly, the TC weren't even mentioned. Could be something to do with them being in the hearts and minds of believers(2cor3:3& heb10:16&17)

 

[1stcenturylady]

May I just say. I have relentlessly stated Christ did not abolish the law. The moral law exists unshakeable. I agree with you. It is in our hearts.
The point of difference with Jason is.
It ain't a law of righteousness/ righteousness of observing the law.

I may have misread what you meant. But you seemed to suggest I believe the moral law got abolished/ it doesn't exist. My apologies if I misread what you wrote

Well, funny thing is, that's what I thought you meant, so I misread you too. When you say Christ is the end of the law of righteousness you mean what exactly?

 

[1stcenturylady]

BTW
There is much I would agree with in what you wrote.
The blueprint of the message as it were is indeed:

Die to a law of righteousness( thou shalt not), and sin shall not be your master, as you follow after the Holy Spirit who sanctifies you.

But do we interpret that, as saying as soon as you fail to be sinless, you have not followed after the holy spirit, and therefore are back under a law of righteousness/ condemned state where sin shall be your master?
There we may disagree.
A Jewish Christian said something like( can't remember his exact words):

The Quran is written to take a literal reading of it. A bit like reading an act of parliament lol. The Bible is not written that way


I may not have worded his comment that well, but it made a great deal of sense to me. Hope you understand what I am getting at.

IE
Jesus said:
If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away.

I'm sure many Christians have sinned with their eyes( If not all) but I don't know of any who then plucked an eye out and threw it away

I've often stated the difference in the Ten Commandments, and the NT commandments (the law of the Spirit) is "Thou shalt not" vs. "Thou shalt love"

When we don't follow the Spirit and sin, He is still there with conviction, and it is up to us to repent and begin to follow after the Spirit only again.

I do not believe in OSAS, but I would say that is up to us. God chastises His children to turn back as it is not his will that any be lost. But if we don't turn back, well...

36 "For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

Those who draw all the way back to "perdition" and will no longer walk after the Spirit, are doomed. They made their choice.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, funny thing is, that's what I thought you meant, so I misread you too. When you say Christ is the end of the law of righteousness you mean what exactly?

The law comes in two parts. The law itself that must be obeyed, and the attached penalty for transgression of it.
No matter which country you live in, if you don't abide by their laws, you must pay the attached penalty for doing so. But just because your country issues laws, does not mean you in your heart want to obey them does it. Those laws are not in your heart. There are laws in Britain I disagree with out of Christian conviction.
Anyway, a law of righteousness can only exist, if there is an attached penalty for non compliance of the law. Without that penalty, no law of righteousness exists. Christ died for the believers sins. They have a saviour from their sins, so Christ died for their transgressions of the law, same thing. Therefore Christ paid the penalty of our transgressions of the law, therefore no law of righteousness exists.
BUT the law itself that states, love God with all your heart, body, soul and mind will never be removed.
Law that states:
Don't murder, covet, commit adultery, steal etc cannot be removed. That law has been written on the mind and placed on the heart of every born again believer. Only those who have that law within them, have a saviour from their transgressions of it.
Anyone who does not have the law written in their mind and placed on their heart has no saviour from sin/ transgression of the law. Therefore their guilt remains, for them the penalty of sin remains firmly in place, and therefore so does the law of righteousness

Hence:
The world's sin( guilt of sin) is unbelief in me john16:9

 

[stuart lawrence]

I've often stated the difference in the Ten Commandments, and the NT commandments (the law of the Spirit) is "Thou shalt not" vs. "Thou shalt love"

When we don't follow the Spirit and sin, He is still there with conviction, and it is up to us to repent and begin to follow after the Spirit only again.

I do not believe in OSAS, but I would say that is up to us. God chastises His children to turn back as it is not his will that any be lost. But if we don't turn back, well...

36 "For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

Those who draw all the way back to "perdition" and will no longer walk after the Spirit, are doomed. They made their choice.

Before I respond to the above, I would like to make a comment that may aid the discussion.
It is a true blessing for me to read your understanding that the law of: Thou shalt not,
stirs up opposition in the mind to that good and holy law. When we understand that, Pauls message becomes easier to understand:
The power of sin is the law( of righteousness) 1cor15:56

It's back to the pink rabbit isn't it lol.

But you see. If you go up to the average believer and tell them they are not under the law of the TC, they would be horrified. They would assume you are preaching a licence to sin. They may even think you are an agent of Satan or demon possessed( as the religious accused Christ if being demon possessed.)
For sadly, many do not understand the message contained in the letter of scripture. They only have a superficial understanding of the letter itself.
So let's try and see if we can come to agreement concerning the message contained in the letter, for I know you are sincere

 

[stuart lawrence]

I've often stated the difference in the Ten Commandments, and the NT commandments (the law of the Spirit) is "Thou shalt not" vs. "Thou shalt love"

When we don't follow the Spirit and sin, He is still there with conviction, and it is up to us to repent and begin to follow after the Spirit only again.

I do not believe in OSAS, but I would say that is up to us. God chastises His children to turn back as it is not his will that any be lost. But if we don't turn back, well...

36 "For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

Those who draw all the way back to "perdition" and will no longer walk after the Spirit, are doomed. They made their choice.

Let's look at the point you raised. If we don't repent when we commit what we term wilfull sin we are doomed.
Absolutely. I agree with you 100 percent.
But let's look at the practical outworking of the covenant we are under in regards to this. I'm speaking of truly born again Christians. NOT people who's christianity consists of turning up at church once a week, relying on rite, ritual and ceremony to enter heaven, plus not getting Drunk, using foul language, having extra marital affairs, nor smoking. Many believe if they adhere to the above they basically have a free pass to enter heaven. I'm sure you disagree with that view, as I do.
OK. The law is written in the mind and placed on the heart of the truly born again believer. We agree on that.
What happens when you wilfully go against what is in your heart? What is the inevitable outcome of that?
Your conscience is going to be seered isn't it. You will have no rest, no peace until you sort out what you did wrong. If you transgressed the law in your heart by being unkind to someone, you must go and apologise to them in order to have your peace back.
The truly born again believer loves God. They cannot hide from how he desires them to live, and avoid what he does not want them to do, for the law is in their mind . And in their heart they want to obey him, for that is where his good and holy laws have been placed.
When a born again Christian does wilfully transgress that law( for only Christ was sinless when he walked this earth) their conscience will be seered for they have offended the one they love, and gone against what is in their heart.
They will have no rest and no peace until they kneel before their Father in heaven and tell him they are sorry for erring. Then, and only then will they get their peace back.
As surely as night follows day, the true Christian will repent/ say sorry to their heavenly Father when they err. The burden in them until they do so would be too great.
Anyone who could continue to sin, untroubled, and did not come and say sorry to God when they erred could not love him or have his laws in their hearts.
So repentance is part of the true Christians walk. They will always repent/ say sorry. They wouldn't need anyone to tell them they must for the Spirit dwells in them.
Those who don't repent cannot have the law in their hearts, and only these people have a saviour from their sin.
So practically speaking, all true Christians will always repent. I don't see it as a work to ensure salvation. Just something you will naturally do. The same as you will inevitably say sorry to anyone you love in your heart whom you at anytime offend

 

[Neogaia777]

Let's look at the point you raised. If we don't repent when we commit what we term wilfull sin we are doomed.
Absolutely. I agree with you 100 percent.
But let's look at the practical outworking of the covenant we are under in regards to this. I'm speaking of truly born again Christians. NOT people who's christianity consists of turning up at church once a week, relying on rite, ritual and ceremony to enter heaven, plus not getting Drunk, using foul language, having extra marital affairs, nor smoking. Many believe if they adhere to the above they basically have a free pass to enter heaven. I'm sure you disagree with that view, as I do.
OK. The law is written in the mind and placed on the heart of the truly born again believer. We agree on that.
What happens when you wilfully go against what is in your heart? What is the inevitable outcome of that?
Your conscience is going to be seered isn't it. You will have no rest, no peace until you sort out what you did wrong. If you transgressed the law in your heart by being unkind to someone, you must go and apologise to them in order to have your peace back.
The truly born again believer loves God. They cannot hide from how he desires them to live, and avoid what he does not want them to do, for the law is in their mind . And in their heart they want to obey him, for that is where his good and holy laws have been placed.
When a born again Christian does wilfully transgress that law( for only Christ was sinless when he walked this earth) their conscience will be seered for they have offended the one they love, and gone against what is in their heart.
They will have no rest and no peace until they kneel before their Father in heaven and tell him they are sorry for erring. Then, and only then will they get their peace back.
As surely as night follows day, the true Christian will repent/ say sorry to their heavenly Father when they err. The burden in them until they do so would be too great.
Anyone who could continue to sin, untroubled, and did not come and say sorry to God when they erred could not love him or have his laws in their hearts.
So repentance is part of the true Christians walk. They will always repent/ say sorry. They wouldn't need anyone to tell them they must for the Spirit dwells in them.
Those who don't repent cannot have the law in their hearts, and only these people have a saviour from their sin.
So practically speaking, all true Christians will always repent. I don't see it as a work to ensure salvation. Just something you will naturally do. The same as you will inevitably say sorry to anyone you love in your heart whom you at anytime offend

Repentance is connected to redemption, isn't it...? Our entire life's story is about redemption... and the point(s) at which one is repentant and repents, that is the pivot point or middle stop on the road or path of redemption... Isn't it...?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Repentance is connected to redemption, isn't it...? Our entire life's story is about redemption... and the point(s) at which one is repentant and repents, that is the pivot point or middle stop on the road or path of redemption... Isn't it...?

In regards to when we err we repent/ say sorry to God for our erring, and this is part of our Christian walk that results in everlaslating life, I would agree, if I have understood you correctly

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Shouldn't you be pointing to neither you or Stuart but to God about this? Follow no man, put your confidence in no man.

In Christ
Daniel

You are seeing something in my words that don't exist. Nowhere did I say I was following anyone or putting confidence in anyone by doing such a study on my own time alone with God (and then sharing this study here at CF when I am done). My following a reading plan from Romans to Jude (just because other Christians are doing that) does not mean I am going to listen to what they have to say later when I am done with my reading.


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