The Dodwell Data now out!!!!!

[Orogeny]

So, tell us about the Swedish sediment, in detail?

We're talking about Norwegian sediment, Dad. Try to keep up.

Was it flood sediment? Pre flood? Post flood?

None of the above. There is no evidence in the rock record of any event similar to the flood described in the Bible.

 

[mpok1519]

So this means what? You think we should teach kids there were no ancient measurements of the heavenly bodies? Strange.

No: we should teach them to avoid people like you and this dodwell jackass. If the majority of people viewed science as you do, we could all very well be dead. Imagine a world where surgeons always killed theirpatients bc prayer didn't work.

 

[dad]

We're talking about Norwegian sediment, Dad. Try to keep up.

What about it??? How would mere water deposit pinpoint when it was deposited??

None of the above. There is no evidence in the rock record of any event similar to the flood described in the Bible.

I think what we have here is that you expect something from the flood that is different from what actually happened. Stop being vague.

 

[dad]

No: we should teach them to avoid people like you and this dodwell jackass. If the majority of people viewed science as you do, we could all very well be dead. Imagine a world where surgeons always killed theirpatients bc prayer didn't work.

Strawman. The operations we are trying to look at were long before doctors existed.

 

[Orogeny]

I think what we have here is that you expect something from the flood that is different from what actually happened. Stop being vague.

NO U. How about instead of being vague, you tell us what to look for that would identify a flood deposit? While you're at it, stop being vague about the properties of your 'different state' past and tell us what they were.

Pot, kettle, etc.

 

[dad]

NO U. How about instead of being vague, you tell us what to look for that would identify a flood deposit? While you're at it, stop being vague about the properties of your 'different state' past and tell us what they were.

Pot, kettle, etc.

If everything man can see is in this state, how would anyone look for something in any other state??? Now, for a flood deposit, I would look for something near some supposed big extinction, and maybe some materials associated with space and the interior of the earth..

 

[sandwiches]

To have objective evidence we need some observation, and such things. The only observers told of a different state. Can't beat that. Be objective. In that objectivity, include spiritual objects! Otherwise you lobotomize your conclusions of the past.

So, to be concise. You do NOT have objectively verifiable evidence of your claims. That's alright.

That's all I wanted to know. Thanks. Nothing more to discuss then, I guess.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I am sure that many of remember that dad posted on this Dodwell nonsense back in February of 2008.
http://www.christianforums.com/t6857052/

My last previous post on this forum was on that thread in August of 08.

The really funny thing is that Dodwell essentially relies on the Egyptian King's list for the date of the Temple of Karnak and dad totally rejects the King's list except here where he accepts it as here.

This is from one of my posts to that thread which is now closed.

"There is a major depenance on the Temple of Karnak which appears to be very wrong.

G.S. Hawkins surved the complex and determined that its main axis was southeast, toward sunrise on the day of winter solstice, and northwest, toward sunset on the day of summer solstice. According to Hawkins the winter solstice sunrise was the primary alignment because the view of the summer solstice is blocked. Hawkins calculated when the complex was started, the Earth's axial tilt was 23 degrees, 87 minutes which would put it right on the Newcombe line. It certainly doesn't indicate anything catastrophic happened in 2345 BC. Apparently Dodwell used the wrong solstice to get his numbers.

By the way the Karnak complex was started in the early 12th dynasty. The Dodwell graph lists it at 2045 BC though most archeologists say it was founded in the 19th century BC. Do you really think that all of Predynastic Egypt and the first 12 dynasties can be fit into about 300 years after the supposed great flood destroyed all but one small family? "

Dad later replied
Actually, the earlier Egyptians, and their dynasties, are supported by what? The king list? Hec, that is a joke. Anything else?

There was no other way for Dodwell to have dated Karnac independantly of his misinterpreted solstice data. He must have used the King's list. So the King's list is fine when Dodwell used it to date Karnac but a joke when it disagrees with dad. This is so typical of dad's "logic".

 

[Orogeny]

If everything man can see is in this state, how would anyone look for something in any other state???

Are there any objects, any matter left over from this prior state? Any sedimentary deposits left over from this state?

Now, for a flood deposit, I would look for something near some supposed big extinction, and maybe some materials associated with space and the interior of the earth.

Ok. Here is a list of extinction events. Which one of these fits your criteria?

 

[dad]

I am sure that many of remember that dad posted on this Dodwell nonsense back in February of 2008.
http://www.christianforums.com/t6857052/

My last previous post on this forum was on that thread in August of 08.

The really funny thing is that Dodwell essentially relies on the Egyptian King's list for the date of the Temple of Karnak and dad totally rejects the King's list except here where he accepts it as here.

This is from one of my posts to that thread which is now closed.

"There is a major depenance on the Temple of Karnak which appears to be very wrong.

G.S. Hawkins surved the complex and determined that its main axis was southeast, toward sunrise on the day of winter solstice, and northwest, toward sunset on the day of summer solstice. According to Hawkins the winter solstice sunrise was the primary alignment because the view of the summer solstice is blocked. Hawkins calculated when the complex was started, the Earth's axial tilt was 23 degrees, 87 minutes which would put it right on the Newcombe line. It certainly doesn't indicate anything catastrophic happened in 2345 BC. Apparently Dodwell used the wrong solstice to get his numbers.

By the way the Karnak complex was started in the early 12th dynasty. The Dodwell graph lists it at 2045 BC though most archeologists say it was founded in the 19th century BC. Do you really think that all of Predynastic Egypt and the first 12 dynasties can be fit into about 300 years after the supposed great flood destroyed all but one small family? "

Dad later replied
Actually, the earlier Egyptians, and their dynasties, are supported by what? The king list? Hec, that is a joke. Anything else?

There was no other way for Dodwell to have dated Karnac independantly of his misinterpreted solstice data. He must have used the King's list. So the King's list is fine when Dodwell used it to date Karnac but a joke when it disagrees with dad. This is so typical of dad's "logic".

Looks like your big point was the dating of the temple of Karnak.

Not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that there was no other way Dodwell could have dated Karnac..?

As for the guy claiming it was some other solstice, I want to look into the basis for that claim. Also how he "calculated" the axis of the earth in the imaginary time when he thought Karnak was dated!

The pattern of scores of measurements is clear. It diverges wildly from the Newcombe curve.

If you want to raise the specifics of Karnak, we need to look at what temple was measured how.

"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] Lockyer was very particular about the orientation of the temple of Amen-Ra, which dominates Karnak, and was found to align with the summer solstice sunrise. He said of it:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Evaluation of the site of the temple of Amun-Re at Karnak, taking into account the change over time of the obliquity of the ecliptic, has shown that the Great Temple was aligned on the rising of the midwinter sun. (6)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The earliest axis included the famous Great Hypostyle Hall built by Ramses II on an east to west alignment. Sir Norman Lockyer (1836-1920) proposed a midsummer sunset alignment of the Main Axis of the Great Temple of Amon-Re (see The Dawn of Astronomy, 1894). As Lockyer noted of Karnak, it was 'a scientific instrument of very high precision, as by it the length of the year could be determined with the greatest possible accuracy.' By some accounts, the temple at Luxor may have no less than four well-defined alignment changes involving stars. Unlike solar alignments which can generally last for thousands of years intact, stellar alignments are much more critical because of the precession of the equinoxes, and last only a few hundred years. Lockyer's measurements showed several Karnak temples had been altered over the centuries to match the precessional changes in their aligned stars. (3"[/FONT]
Karnak (Thebes), Egypt.

Apparently it is also the stars that show a change over time. Rather than be vague, and refer to some guy raising a theory of an alternate solstice or some such, we need details.

How is the 12th dynasty dated, for example.

"Although the oldest standing building remains are only from the 12th dynasty, and most of the original temple compound now lies under the city of Luxor and is therefore currently inaccessible by archeologist's, the earliest evidence from archeology so far demonstrates activity as far back as 3,200 BC.(4) "

same link

In other words, they have no real dates, apparently..

​

[/FONT]

 

[dad]

Are there any objects, any matter left over from this prior state? Any sedimentary deposits left over from this state?


Ok. Here is a list of extinction events. Which one of these fits your criteria?

Of course the future new heavens has water, and a lot in common with us, as the created state would have. As for extinction events, I would suspect the one around the KT layer time might be related to the time of the flood...not sure.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Looks like your big point was the dating of the temple of Karnak.

Not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that there was no other way Dodwell could have dated Karnac..?

From the Dodwell text you posted
The mean date, taken from a number of recent Egyptological works (Cambridge Ancient History, Breasted, Budge, etc.) places the commencement of the XII Dynasty at about 2050 B.C., and I have adopted 2045 B.C. as the date of the foundation of the earliest part of the Karnak Temple of Amen Ra.

In other words he used dates from standard works relying on the King's list that you so malign. And this is clearly the 12th dynasty so you need to put recovery from the flood, predynastic Egypt and 12 Egyptian dynasties in about 300 years of your fantasy history.

As for the guy claiming it was some other solstice, I want to look into the basis for that claim. Also how he "calculated" the axis of the earth in the imaginary time when he thought Karnak was dated!

The pattern of scores of measurements is clear. It diverges wildly from the Newcombe curve.

If you want to raise the specifics of Karnak, we need to look at what temple was measured how.

"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Lockyer was very particular about the orientation of the temple of Amen-Ra, which dominates Karnak, and was found to align with the summer solstice sunrise. He said of it:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Evaluation of the site of the temple of Amun-Re at Karnak, taking into account the change over time of the obliquity of the ecliptic, has shown that the Great Temple was aligned on the rising of the midwinter sun. (6)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The earliest axis included the famous Great Hypostyle Hall built by Ramses II on an east to west alignment. Sir Norman Lockyer (1836-1920) proposed a midsummer sunset alignment of the Main Axis of the Great Temple of Amon-Re (see The Dawn of Astronomy, 1894). As Lockyer noted of Karnak, it was 'a scientific instrument of very high precision, as by it the length of the year could be determined with the greatest possible accuracy.' By some accounts, the temple at Luxor may have no less than four well-defined alignment changes involving stars. Unlike solar alignments which can generally last for thousands of years intact, stellar alignments are much more critical because of the precession of the equinoxes, and last only a few hundred years. Lockyer's measurements showed several Karnak temples had been altered over the centuries to match the precessional changes in their aligned stars. (3"[/FONT]
Karnak (Thebes), Egypt.
​

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]

Note, the temple was aligned with the midwinter sun. This puts it right on the Newcombe curve. Thank you for proving yourself wrong once again. I see that nothing really has changed since I was here last.

F.B.
​

[/FONT]

 

[Orogeny]

Of course the future new heavens has water, and a lot in common with us, as the created state would have.

Oh look, you didn't answer my question. Are there any objects or deposits left over from the past state? If so, name them.

As for extinction events, I would suspect the one around the KT layer time might be related to the time of the flood...not sure.

Ok, so the K-T boundary is when the flood occurred. What deposits at the K-T boundary are from the interior of the earth? What deposits are from space? Is it your assertion that every deposit that is Cretaceous or older is a pre-split deposit? Everything Cenozoic is post-split? If so, show me how you made that distinction. If not, then tell me where, on the geologic time scale, that split occurred.

 

[dad]

From the Dodwell text you posted
The mean date, taken from a number of recent Egyptological works (Cambridge Ancient History, Breasted, Budge, etc.) places the commencement of the XII Dynasty at about 2050 B.C., and I have adopted 2045 B.C. as the date of the foundation of the earliest part of the Karnak Temple of Amen Ra.

In other words he used dates from standard works relying on the King's list that you so malign. And this is clearly the 12th dynasty so you need to put recovery from the flood, predynastic Egypt and 12 Egyptian dynasties in about 300 years of your fantasy history.

Ah, so now we see that the issue is the 12th dynasty. OK.

wiki says this

"
Known rulers, in the History of Egypt, for the Twelfth Dynasty are as follows:
Twelfth Dynasty Name Dates Amenemhat I 1991 BC – 1962 BC Senusret I (Sesostris I) 1971 BC – 1926 BC Amenemhat II 1929 BC – 1895 BC Senusret II (Sesostris II) 1897 BC – 1878 BC Senusret III (Sesostris III) 1878 BC – 1839 BC Amenemhat III 1860 BC – 1814 BC Amenemhat IV 1815 BC – 1806 BC Sobekneferu 1806 BC – 1802 BC"

I don't see any scary older dates from the known rulers. So, where do real old dates come from?? Unknown ones?! What do you know? That might be a good place to start.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]

Note, the temple was aligned with the midwinter sun. This puts it right on the Newcombe curve. Thank you for proving yourself wrong once again. I see that nothing really has changed since I was here last.

F.B.

[/FONT]

So in what way is it aligned? Do we need to stick in a wobble of the earth for non existent years for some old date you offer? Or is it aligned right now? Or...nothing really changes with you, vague balderdash still seems to be the order of the day. Do you really want to address the issues honestly? Or is it more of a 'say something the average student would think must be true'?

Details, man.

 

[dad]

Oh look, you didn't answer my question. Are there any objects or deposits left over from the past state? If so, name them.

It would be easier to name ones that are not! If the big change was 4400 + years ago, wouldn't that leave most things as being laid down in the different state?? How many metamorphic rocks have you seen created in the last 200 years, since science tossed out it's diapers? ( or since the dawn of recorded history for that matter) How many Deccan flats? How many oceans were created? How many mountains were built? How many new ice ages have we seen? Etc...Most of what we have is made pre split.

Ok, so the K-T boundary is when the flood occurred.

No. I pointed out that near that level was where I currently suspected it may have been. Why so rash???

What deposits at the K-T boundary are from the interior of the earth? What deposits are from space?

Iridium...on both counts, I assume, for example.

Is it your assertion that every deposit that is Cretaceous or older is a pre-split deposit? Everything Cenozoic is post-split? If so, show me how you made that distinction. If not, then tell me where, on the geologic time scale, that split occurred.

How would I know?? We need to find the flood first. Then we simply add a century and change, to get to to the state change. I assume that the Cretaceous was pre split, yes. Why? Because if the flood was somewhere near of after the tail end of the thing, it would have to be. All subject to evidence of course.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Ah, so now we see that the issue is the 12th dynasty. OK.

wiki says this

"
Known rulers, in the History of Egypt, for the Twelfth Dynasty are as follows:
Twelfth Dynasty Name Dates Amenemhat I 1991 BC – 1962 BC Senusret I (Sesostris I) 1971 BC – 1926 BC Amenemhat II 1929 BC – 1895 BC Senusret II (Sesostris II) 1897 BC – 1878 BC Senusret III (Sesostris III) 1878 BC – 1839 BC Amenemhat III 1860 BC – 1814 BC Amenemhat IV 1815 BC – 1806 BC Sobekneferu 1806 BC – 1802 BC"

I don't see any scary older dates from the known rulers. So, where do real old dates come from?? Unknown ones?! What do you know? That might be a good place to start.

So the Kings List quoted from Wiki is fine if you think it fits your myth. What do you think about the known kings of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th dynasties which you have to fit between your supposed flood and the dates given here? I'll bet if I post the dates for the known 3rd and 4th dynasty Kings you will reject them out of hand.

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]

So in what way is it aligned? Do we need to stick in a wobble of the earth for non existent years for some old date you offer? Or is it aligned right now? Or...nothing really changes with you, vague balderdash still seems to be the order of the day. Do you really want to address the issues honestly? Or is it more of a 'say something the average student would think must be true'?

Details, man.​

Maybe you missed my highlighting but it was your quote that said the alignment was with the winter solstice showing that Dodwell screwed up. Now you ask me for details. I had pointed this out in an earlier post but we can use your quote to refute yourself here.

BTW Here is what I posted before with a link to the details.
"G.S. Hawkins surved the complex and determined that its main axis was southeast, toward sunrise on the day of winter solstice, and northwest, toward sunset on the day of summer solstice. According to Hawkins the winter solstice sunrise was the primary alignment because the view of the summer solstice is blocked. Hawkins calculated when the complex was started, the Earth's axial tilt was 23 degrees, 87 minutes which would put it right on the Newcombe line. It certainly doesn't indicate anything catastrophic happened in 2345 BC. Apparently Dodwell used the wrong solstice to get his numbers."

If the wobble you are refering to is the precession of the equinox this has been known since ancient Greece.​

 

[Split Rock]

No. I pointed out that near that level was where I currently suspected it may have been. Why so rash???


Iridium...on both counts, I assume, for example.

How would I know?? We need to find the flood first. Then we simply add a century and change, to get to to the state change. I assume that the Cretaceous was pre split, yes. Why? Because if the flood was somewhere near of after the tail end of the thing, it would have to be. All subject to evidence of course.

So, dad... you "suspect," you "assume" and you ask "how would I know." That's pretty much your case in a nutshell (no pun intended). Then you claim it is "all subject to evidence.' Well, guess what, dad? Christian geologists looking for the flood sediments concluded there were none... and they did so back in the 1800s. That is the conclusion that the evidence leads to.

 

[BananaSlug]

So the Kings List quoted from Wiki is fine if you think it fits your myth. What do you think about the known kings of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th dynasties which you have to fit between your supposed flood and the dates given here? I'll bet if I post the dates for the known 3rd and 4th dynasty Kings you will reject them out of hand.
Maybe you missed my highlighting but it was your quote that said the alignment was with the winter solstice showing that Dodwell screwed up. Now you ask me for details. I had pointed this out in an earlier post but we can use your quote to refute yourself here.

BTW Here is what I posted before with a link to the details.
"G.S. Hawkins surved the complex and determined that its main axis was southeast, toward sunrise on the day of winter solstice, and northwest, toward sunset on the day of summer solstice. According to Hawkins the winter solstice sunrise was the primary alignment because the view of the summer solstice is blocked. Hawkins calculated when the complex was started, the Earth's axial tilt was 23 degrees, 87 minutes which would put it right on the Newcombe line. It certainly doesn't indicate anything catastrophic happened in 2345 BC. Apparently Dodwell used the wrong solstice to get his numbers."

If the wobble you are refering to is the precession of the equinox this has been known since ancient Greece.

I have had this discussion with him...http://www.christianforums.com/t7446128-53/#post54509425

 

[Orogeny]

It would be easier to name ones that are not! If the big change was 4400 + years ago, wouldn't that leave most things as being laid down in the different state?? How many metamorphic rocks have you seen created in the last 200 years, since science tossed out it's diapers? ( or since the dawn of recorded history for that matter) How many Deccan flats? How many oceans were created? How many mountains were built? How many new ice ages have we seen? Etc...Most of what we have is made pre split.

How do you know? How can you distinguish something that is pre-split from something that is post-split?

No. I pointed out that near that level was where I currently suspected it may have been. Why so rash???

So you're just making things up?

Iridium...on both counts, I assume, for example.

Quite the assumption. Can you show me that iridium comes from space and from the interior of the earth?

How would I know?? We need to find the flood first.

Geologists and christians alike have been looking for the flood for 200 years. Nobody's found it yet. Do you think you can do better? Do you think you can find it?

Then we simply add a century and change, to get to to the state change. I assume that the Cretaceous was pre split, yes. Why? Because if the flood was somewhere near of after the tail end of the thing, it would have to be.

Circular reasoning. Standard dad fare.

All subject to evidence of course.

Something none of your theories have ever had.

 

[dad]

So the Kings List quoted from Wiki is fine if you think it fits your myth. What do you think about the known kings of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th dynasties which you have to fit between your supposed flood and the dates given here? I'll bet if I post the dates for the known 3rd and 4th dynasty Kings you will reject them out of hand.

Ah, so let's get this straight. You seem to accept that the only KNOWN kings for the crucial period you raised, provide no challenge whatsoever to a biblical dating. Therefore you apparently have no direct challenge to the Dodwell data, and curve after all. Instead, you try to fall back on more distant parts of this silly king list, as if it could possibly be some problem, or challenge, in some vague way.

I have said all the time, that I accept even radioactive decay dating, and other present state methods, up to a point. Even if there was decay dating for up till around 2000BC or so, I would not have reason to question it. As we get further back, beyond the range of accurate records, that is another matter.

Maybe you missed my highlighting but it was your quote that said the alignment was with the winter solstice showing that Dodwell screwed up. Now you ask me for details. I had pointed this out in an earlier post but we can use your quote to refute yourself here.

BTW Here is what I posted before with a link to the details.
"G.S. Hawkins surved the complex and determined that its main axis was southeast, toward sunrise on the day of winter solstice, and northwest, toward sunset on the day of summer solstice. According to Hawkins the winter solstice sunrise was the primary alignment because the view of the summer solstice is blocked. Hawkins calculated when the complex was started, the Earth's axial tilt was 23 degrees, 87 minutes which would put it right on the Newcombe line. It certainly doesn't indicate anything catastrophic happened in 2345 BC. Apparently Dodwell used the wrong solstice to get his numbers."

If the wobble you are refering to is the precession of the equinox this has been known since ancient Greece.

Well, was ancient Greece there at the time of this Egyptian temple? What I wonder is HOW he arrived at the degrees and minutes he claims? If he rode the wings of a same state curve back to an imaginary time, then that would be meaningless. How do we know that one particular solstice had it's view blocked back in that time, either? What proof is offered even, that the view is blocked? Do you even have a quote from Dodwell saying he did use a certain solstice? To say the least, the Hawkins stuff on offer is murky.